BlahCade 95: King of Pin

http://blahcadepinball.com/2017/04/15/Episode-95-King-of-Pin.html

This episode turned out to be broken down into three distinct segments. In typical BlahCade style, it wasn’t planned like that.

Join us for talk about some of Chris' Eight Ball Deluxe ideas. Listen to the case for resetting the FarSight TPA leaderboards. Then round out the show with talk about how Pay TV differs between regions and why it sucks (pin)balls.

When I got a chance to play EBD on tpa I made a video to show players how to pass without post passing. In a discussion thread I posted it in, I became aware of mobile device input lag where the full backward inlane action wasn't able to be reproduced. Steam change logs state EBD had a flipper tuning pass so I'd like to ask mobile players again..

Can you now, after the flipper tuning pass on EBD, flip fast enough on mobile to push it up the inlane as PC players can?

edited link, youtube changed some things again on me

relaxation said:

When I got a chance to play EBD on tpa I made a video to show players how to pass without post passing. In a discussion thread I posted it in, I became aware of mobile device input lag where the full backward inlane action wasn't able to be reproduced. Steam change logs state EBD had a flipper tuning pass so I'd like to ask mobile players again..

Can you now, after the flipper tuning pass on EBD, flip fast enough on mobile to push it up the inlane as PC players can?

Click to expand...

That link is the YouTube edit link for me. Can you post the link to the normal URL.

relaxation said:

When I got a chance to play EBD on tpa I made a video to show players how to pass without post passing. In a discussion thread I posted it in, I became aware of mobile device input lag where the full backward inlane action wasn't able to be reproduced. Steam change logs state EBD had a flipper tuning pass so I'd like to ask mobile players again..

Can you now, after the flipper tuning pass on EBD, flip fast enough on mobile to push it up the inlane as PC players can?

Click to expand...

Here is my attempt on the current Android release.

https://youtu.be/XqDQw4YP75I

jaredmorgs said:

Here is my attempt on the current Android release.

https://youtu.be/XqDQw4YP75I

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So it looks like you can, which is good.

It's hard to tell on Zen FX2s leaderboard 'reset' (legacy), they had a 'nudge interaction' patch with it, and I think most top scorers stopped playing for score and only play their [pinball family] steam groups' tournaments instead.

If you take away long standing scores on tables people didn't like, what kind of metric would you leave the player to gauge themselves.. and if we do such a thing.. would Farsight like barren leaderboards on all their gottlieb tables?

If all time high on sucky tables is 'pointless' then what kind of 'victory' is a table with no competition.

I'm really curious what Tarek has to say, he out plays a majority of top players all the time in tournament and all time high.. what's his motivation when he's close to untouchable?

World records in sports are people giving their all so why would anyone complain people are grinding out big scores in a game about big scores?

Didn't the people who quit Zen quit because of the EULA changes, not the nudge adjustment that reset the leaderboards at the same time?

AS far as comparing the leaderboarrds to world records - the current world records (leaderboards) would be equal to doing the events on Mars then asking people to achieve the same in Earth gravity.

Farsight has had issues where the score from one table will populate the leaderboard for a different one, and with the release of SPA the problem has been multiplied. Right now there is no guarantee the top scores were even made in the table the scores are listed for.

World Records are only valid if everybody trying to achieve them can do so within the same conditions the initial record was set. When it comes to video games, everyone needs to be playing the same version. And I'm sorry if Tarek gets his feelings hurt or any of the other handful of players making up less than 1% of the playing community. If it becomes the new norm to have leaderboards reset at known regular intervals, I'm sure they'll adjust. It will add life and vibrancy to the leaderboards once more, and I think make a larger portion of players once again feel engaged with the game. If Tarek really wanted to set a world record, let him set something up with Guinness or Twin Galaxies and do an endurance run on the game.

On TPA,

The issue of leaderboard parity has been brought up before: it's been suggested mobile players may have more pronounced railroads while mobile & keyboard players don't have the same tools as controller players. If we were to wipe the gulf between would still exist.

The 'I had a good game' argument works in the timed tournament format, the results across platforms look competitive for those who compete.

I'm aware of, and asked for problem tables to be reset in the past. The issue I have is frequency, having a seasonal wipe when an 'all time' section exists? Perhaps Chris was suggesting a replacement for 'weekly/monthly/all time' to 'seasonal/all time'? This is another replacement I've heard like 'I only look at the monthly', 'I only compare with friends', etc.

Those who only compete with friends, want a seasonal wipe? I don't think you'll get any comprehensive H2H lobby to play with your friends, but that's not likely needed due to its tumble weed traffic volume. I think I saw 6? players in TPA during the recent H2H stress test, from the Pinball Players steam group.

edited, again
As for how a Seasonal league might play out? you would have timing conflicts with recently released tables meaning, table 1 has 9 months .. .. table 9 has 1 month before reset, very lopsided approach.

I'll suggest an 'Expiration Date' format: If players new score is greater than previous score, update and reset removal date, if else remove entry at expiration date. Duration before expiration to be determined.

Pros: Keeps the leaderboards populated. No timing conflicts with releases, or determints from particiating. Removes inactive players.

+/-: Less 'set it and forget it' scores (2+hr games less likely).

Cons: Have to do better before times up. More work for Farsight? (/run a daily task). ROM limited score games can't go up.

Over thinking it.

In game, the "all time" tab would be wiped at the start of every season. That's it. The monthly wipes monthly already, and your friends scores would wipe due to the all time being wiped. That's it, done. The 'gulf' between mobile players, keyboard players, controller players, I'm not concerned with that. I can just as easily play on my keyboard if I so choose as I can to sticking with my controller. Those are the kind of differences attributed to shoes or swimsuit material. May or may not give a slight edge, but it's also a matter of preference.

Black Hole today plays nothing like Black Hole did when it was first released with improper scripting and exploits that lead to scores that exist to this very day in the top. That's why you seasonally wipe and start fresh. Post on the official website an archive to past leaderboards, maybe a top 200 or something, and call it a day. Not to mention, as I noticed today, sometimes your top score for a table isn't even what the leaderboard has listed!

Here's what I'd like; a compelling argument as to why the leaderboards for TPA should not be wiped. That means taking into account all the bogus scores, the incorrect table swapped scores, and the legit. Part of the argument cannot be "well if FarSight would...", because they're not going to. It's leaderboards as they are, what's the argument for? Go.

the "all time" tab would be wiped at the start of every season.

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so the last table released would be reset next month? I've edited my last bit since you've posted.

table 1 has 9 months before reset, table 2 has 8 months before reset ect. regarding new tables

shutyertrap said:

Over thinking it.

In game, the "all time" tab would be wiped at the start of every season. That's it. The monthly wipes monthly already, and your friends scores would wipe due to the all time being wiped. That's it, done. The 'gulf' between mobile players, keyboard players, controller players, I'm not concerned with that. I can just as easily play on my keyboard if I so choose as I can to sticking with my controller. Those are the kind of differences attributed to shoes or swimsuit material. May or may not give a slight edge, but it's also a matter of preference.

Black Hole today plays nothing like Black Hole did when it was first released with improper scripting and exploits that lead to scores that exist to this very day in the top. That's why you seasonally wipe and start fresh. Post on the official website an archive to past leaderboards, maybe a top 200 or something, and call it a day. Not to mention, as I noticed today, sometimes your top score for a table isn't even what the leaderboard has listed!

Here's what I'd like; a compelling argument as to why the leaderboards for TPA should not be wiped. That means taking into account all the bogus scores, the incorrect table swapped scores, and the legit. Part of the argument cannot be "well if FarSight would...", because they're not going to. It's leaderboards as they are, what's the argument for? Go.

Click to expand...

your a farisght apologist nazi looking mofo...my argument

lets even the keel i really wanna kick allnon rain man ass

A leaderboard reset in regular intervalls without a real reason like new physics? What bad idea. An all time section should be all time. For other players there's the monthly leaderboard. At least my TPA motivation goes against zero with this behaviour. Why not resetting the TPA Fans forum postings every season? This will improve the forum quality. Every few months many threads can be started again...

Tarek Oberdieck said:

A leaderboard reset in regular intervalls without a real reason like new physics? What bad idea. An all time section should be all time. For other players there's the monthly leaderboard.

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So would you be ok to remove the all time leaderboard from visibility within the app. And keep it online only for posterity.

Tarek Oberdieck said:

At least my TPA motivation goes against zero with this behaviour.

Click to expand...

What do you mean?

Tarek Oberdieck said:

Why not resetting the TPA Fans forum postings every season? This will improve the forum quality. Every few months many threads can be started again...

Click to expand...

I know you used the here, but really this argument is invalid within the context of leaderboards.



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jaredmorgs said:

So would you be ok to remove the all time leaderboard from visibility within the app. And keep it online only for posterity.

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Why? Perhaps the monthly leaderboard can be the default view screen when you visit the leaderboards from the app. In my opinion the all time ranking tab should stay in the game. Why not?

jaredmorgs said:

What do you mean?

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That means most of the existing tables are overplayed for me and for sure I will never play these pinballs again after every leaderboard reset. TPA is a game only and I won't spend the rest of my life for non persistant leaderboards. That's a full time job. With these settings maybe I will play the latest release table a few times. That's it.

I don`t worry about leaderboards , I play pinball like I`m playing footy in the backyard for a muck around , if I get a low score , I laugh at myself and say good one boofhead !! if I get a high score , I laugh and say good one boofhead !!!!

Hey. Don't have much to say, just keep it comin guys. I'm a lot like wolfson up there ^. Smack some balls around and see what happens

Perhaps we should keep the "All-Time" leaderboard, working as it is now, and introduce a new 'Seasonal' / 'Competition' leaderboard which of course starts at zero for all tables. The All-Time can then be considered deprecated (*), as the main 'competition' play will be on the new leaderboards. The leaderboard v2 routines should also send some more validation data to FS (to be decided internally, but think total play time, number of balls played, etc.) to make cheating a bit harder and to avoid cross-table posts.

I'd prefer it to be a Competition instead of a Seasonal leaderboard as it doesn't need to be necessarily wiped every season, just in case of significant changes to game play which can be decided on a table-by-table basis and at any point in time, including mid-season.

(*) For those that want to keep going by All-Time they are free to do so as the functionality in itself won't change, just the "value" of it. E.g. in Formula 1 there are many lap records set in 2004. You put a couple of chicanes on the long straits (so they become 2 short straits), ban refueling, reduce the engine size, etc. those lap records will never be broken. So a 2004 lap record doesn't mean anything. It's some relic of the past when things were totally different. But the lap record for this years' race is absolutely relevant.

Byte said:

Perhaps we should keep the "All-Time" leaderboard, working as it is now, and introduce a new 'Seasonal' / 'Competition' leaderboard which of course starts at zero for all tables. The All-Time can then be considered deprecated (*), as the main 'competition' play will be on the new leaderboards. The leaderboard v2 routines should also send some more validation data to FS (to be decided internally, but think total play time, number of balls played, etc.) to make cheating a bit harder and to avoid cross-table posts.

I'd prefer it to be a Competition instead of a Seasonal leaderboard as it doesn't need to be necessarily wiped every season, just in case of significant changes to game play which can be decided on a table-by-table basis and at any point in time, including mid-season.

(*) For those that want to keep going by All-Time they are free to do so as the functionality in itself won't change, just the "value" of it. E.g. in Formula 1 there are many lap records set in 2004. You put a couple of chicanes on the long straits (so they become 2 short straits), ban refueling, reduce the engine size, etc. those lap records will never be broken. So a 2004 lap record doesn't mean anything. It's some relic of the past when things were totally different. But the lap record for this years' race is absolutely relevant.

Click to expand...

A well thought out position. Thank you for trying to come up with something that finds common ground.

I agree. This sounds like a workable approach to me, and would do away with provisioning new leaderboards each season.

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