Not buying anymore tables until bugs get fixed

Ive decided to stop buying new tables until the more serious longstanding bugs get fixed. This includes DLC #4, which I would have bought if the expected bug fixes had been included.

I think farsight should slow down their schedule and devote a month or two fixing all the bugs. Especially since after each release all the tables seem to play slightly different, thus making it a chore to refigure out how the physics works.

Well, that's your decision. Although I should point out that as far as I can tell, no one from FarSight ever claimed the update with DLC #4 also included bug fixes. It's the next update (not DLC #5, just a general update) that includes those fixes.

d_a_v_e said:

Especially since after each release all the tables seem to play slightly different, thus making it a chore to refigure out how the physics works.

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There's going to be a lot of that, especially during the first few months of each table's existence, while FarSight tunes the physics. It's no different than discovering a real life machine that you had mastered has received some maintenance/new parts and now plays completely differently. I would much rather deal with some inconsistency now if it means I will have more correct physics later, than play a table with consistently inaccurate physics.

I'm pretty sure most of us expected some of the major bugs that have been around for a while to be fixed. But even so, I'm just tired of having each new release introduce new bugs while leaving others still there. I love the app, but it really needs to be more stable. I mean, CV went from one of my favorite tables to my least favorite when they changed the outlanes. Maybe it is more realistic this way, but I wouldn't have bought the table if I knew it would end up like this.

I think I may be joining you. With each release the game seems buggier. I get bad slow downs on the latest version and speed ups which are completely out of the norm. And how can the flippers in MM still be super gapped. They seem to be going for quantity over quality at this point. I'm not giving up on them yet but am disappointed.

mbob said:

I think I may be joining you. With each release the game seems buggier. I get bad slow downs on the latest version and speed ups which are completely out of the norm. And how can the flippers in MM still be super gapped. They seem to be going for quantity over quality at this point. I'm not giving up on them yet but am disappointed.

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I for one feel they are on the right track in their recent interest in hiring more programmers which is what they need to do. Two tables a month is a great thing, and they should not slow down, however they need to hire enough new programmers to handle all the tables they are creating, and perhaps have better beta testing of each table before they are released. They should pick out forum members to try out the newer unreleased tables so they can fix large bugs before compiling and then releasing as a General update to the public. Furthermore, they need to have a weekly update on their progress wi the Twilight Zone table so they can at least build enough credibility for their next Star Trek TNG kickstarter which I want to support and hope others as well.

I think they are doing a good job! Have you compared these tables to some of the other ones? Pinball Arcade is by far the better of all of them. If no one buys the tables it would be hard for them to make money and then nothing would get fixed. I think complaints are welcomed and help better the game so the bugs get noticed, but try to put it in prospective.

d_a_v_e said:

Ive decided to stop buying new tables until the more serious longstanding bugs get fixed. This includes DLC #4, which I would have bought if the expected bug fixes had been included.

I think farsight should slow down their schedule and devote a month or two fixing all the bugs. Especially since after each release all the tables seem to play slightly different, thus making it a chore to refigure out how the physics works.

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Good for you, in the meantime I will buy them all and wait patiently for updates if there are bugs.

to pin or not to pin, that is the question. Weather it is nobeler to understand the trife this farsight endures...or to look not at digital pinball , NO MORE.

I'm satisfied they are working to fix things rather than issuing new updates without fixing anything. I don't understand the point of this protest. This isn't the same as companies releasing buggy packaged software and having to release patches the first week of release. The Pinball Arcade is an evolving project more akin to MAME than Gears of War. There is a risk of new bugs with new updates and then patches to address those and future updates, etc.

You'll stop seeing the need for patches when Farsight stops releasing new content for The Pinball Arcade. I personally hope that day never comes.

mbob said:

I think I may be joining you. With each release the game seems buggier. I get bad slow downs on the latest version and speed ups which are completely out of the norm. And how can the flippers in MM still be super gapped. They seem to be going for quantity over quality at this point. I'm not giving up on them yet but am disappointed.

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patch for Gamecenter slowdown and MM gap (amongst other things) is currently in testing for ios.

J2fold said:

I think they are doing a good job! Have you compared these tables to some of the other ones? Pinball Arcade is by far the better of all of them. If no one buys the tables it would be hard for them to make money and then nothing would get fixed. I think complaints are welcomed and help better the game so the bugs get noticed, but try to put it in prospective.

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I am putting it in perspective; so far I've spent over $20 on this game. That's a lot for a game But I'm not complaining about the cost. I think it is a great game, the only one I have played since it came out. But with this last release, I have reached a tipping point in the amount of frustration vs the amount of enjoyment I get when playing. Thus, I feel compelled to send a message to the devs that I cannot buy more content from them until the content I have already bought (and it's all the dlcs except the most recent) have their issues addressed without adding even more issues instead. The most recent release makes many tables unplayable due to the slowdown. I was just having a great game on gorgon but due to the slowdown I couldn't get past about 600k.
Again, I love the game and played it every day until recently. It's just not fun anymore. I really hope that changes soon.

Except that $20 isn't a lot for a game. A new retail release costs at least double that!

As a consumer that's your right, although I find sending a message directly to the company is more effective than posting on an independent message board, whether staff read it or not.

I think one thing that needs to be understood by all will be the different positions that might be held between those of us who have TPA on only one system and those of us who own it on multiple systems.

Bugs are getting fixed, but sometimes it's not a bug on a particular platform. When it comes down to it the XBOX and PS3 have to be considered seperate platforms due to differences between Sony and Microsoft policy (and despite the overall similarity in the product), and iOS and Android have to be treated as different platforms also.

d_a_v_e, by the looks of it you only have TPA for iOS, and that would potentially be frustrating as, if improvements get made for the consoles and then for Android, well improvements were made twice and you saw none of them (just for example). While others here (like myself) have multiple copies (for instance I play on XBOX, iOS and Android), we are constantly seeing at least some improvement somewhere. So XBOX took forever for DLC? Whatever iOS and Android have them. Bug here? Fixed there. So us multi-platform people are pretty lucky because our frustrations can be much more easily mitigated.

If I only had TPA for XBOX, or iOS most notably, I would probably be in the very same boat as d_a_v_e, mind you, I would probably not hold his position, I would (even more) easily understand it.

d_a_v_e, software is a crazy thing and what seems like an innocuous change to software code can break something that not even the programmers could even be asked to reasonably guess would be somehow related. Just to give some background to my statement:

I work for a software company, i don't program but I am 2nd tier support. I work directly with the developpers and programmers for the software. I perform advanced troubleshooting and database repair for about 85% of the Canadian Insurance market. In the industry, our software is top of the heap, but also falls under what I consider "niche" software, like medical, pharmacy and most legal software. I see updates come out for one thing that completely break things in completely different modules. We figure out what happened and and a lot of the time there's a nice round of "WTF?"

Programming something and updating code is always with risk, so a change that can fix one thing can have a cascading effect on only-god-knows-what sometimes. It is frustrating as an end-user and most companies don't care enough to fix it properly. When dealing with Farsight though, I get a totally different impression, they do care and are very passionate about the product. Some of us will give them a bit more leeway than other companies but some others won't. As the addage goes...business is business.

20$ does seem like a lot for an iOS game, but most games with DLC or in-app purchases are intentionally designed to squeeze a lot of money out of a person simply to enjoy the game at a reasonable rate of advancement (buy coins to be able to build this item in less than 4 days or to be able to build more advanced units...g'ah garbage). For your 20$, you've received 8 rather well represented pinball tables. Not perfect but very well represented (well they did absolutely kill Black Hole in the MM/BoP release). For 25$ you will have 10 well represented tables.

Farsight will definitely be taking me for a couple hundred in the long run.

d_a_v_e, I have to maintain, if you don't purchase the newer tables, well, it really is your loss. Just like me not buying coffee every day is not going to topple the mighty Tim Horton's empire, I think FS has enough support behind it, though I'm pretty sure they do want your business, they have a plan for updates and will most likely stick to it.

To me this come down to if you are a patient type personality or not. FS does seem to put out tables before they are a truly completed product. I'm ok with this as I'm not patient. I want the table ASAP even with the bugs. But if the bugs freak you out and cause massive frustration, then maybe the best thing to do is wait until a table is out for a couple of months before buying. This way there will be an update or two and you will be buying a more polished product.

Stern ships out $7000 machines with unfinished programming. Doesn't make it right, it just points out that the current standard of software development seems to be to send out a functioning but not perfect version as quickly as possible and then update it to fix problems as they arise.

For the user, there is a determination of how much enjoyment do they expect out of a certain expenditure. For some, the frustrations of a non-perfect product outweigh the expenditure... it doesn't matter if that expense is $1 or $100... the individual has their own value set. What we're seeing right now is a handful(?) of TPA consumers are struggling with the value proposition that Farsight offers.

Part of that value prop, which is genius marketing IMO, is the "pinball preservation" angle. There's a "greater good" that Farsight is doing. That factors heavily for some, not at all for others. But it is part of Farsight's value proposition.

For the software developer (Farsight in this case) things get a little murkier. Bugs will always happen. Say it with me "Bugs will always happen". No software is perfect.

With that said, the number of bugs that have slipped through are likely the result of either: (1) ineptitude or (B) business reasons.

I tend to think (1) just isn't the case. But (B). We already know TPA is not profitable (yet) for Farsight. So with any new release they are balancing new revenue potential against attrition. If a high percentage of the installed base will buy the new tables and the addition of those new tables will grow the user base, then shipping with bugs or flaws is a tradeoff they are willing to make.

We used to tell clients "Pick two: speed, accuracy, low cost". Farsight seems to have chosen Speed and Low Cost which makes sense when you're trying to build to profitability.

And don't forget how the "greater good" angle is working for them too... Many of use are willing to put up with a far-less-than-perfect product because that is a sacrifice we are willing to make to preserve these tables, even if that preservation is an imperfect one.

stevesabol said:

For the software developer (Farsight in this case) things get a little murkier. Bugs will always happen. Say it with me "Bugs will always happen". No software is perfect.

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It is possible to make near-perfect software...a particular piece of software I developed 8 years ago to get a video surveillance system talking with various third-party devices is still being used today and has not had a major bug in its lifetime, even though I have not looked at the code in 6 years. But the software in question took a very long time to develop and was extremely expensive compared to similar products. Extreme accuracy is possible only at the cost of extreme price and development time. In some situations (like video surveillance), this tradeoff is worth it; for other situations (like pinball) not so much.

stevesabol said:

And don't forget how the "greater good" angle is working for them too... Many of use are willing to put up with a far-less-than-perfect product because that is a sacrifice we are willing to make to preserve these tables, even if that preservation is an imperfect one.

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While I don't think anyone looks at FarSight as a charity, many of us feel that what they are doing will not be re-attempted if TPA does not succeed. They have overreached somewhat in chasing their ambition, yes, but if the choice is 95% or even 90% accurate tables and no tables at all, I'll take the tables.

And perhaps we'll look back two years from now and say to TPA newcomers, "Back in my day, we had to play Monster Bash blind, with one flipper and a bad camera, in the snow, uphill both ways, blah blah blah..."

If I had to pay 99 euro's for a game I would expect it to be perfect, but c'mon, it's just a couple of euro's/dollars, take it easy, stuff will work out. I still see that the flipper shadows don't move with the flippers in CV, but I still sleep well at night. To stop buying games until FS works out the bugs will not help the company. And I bet that when the next DLC is out with some new cool tables, you can't resist to spend your BigMac lunch-money on it.

If everyone would stop buying the game because the game is only 90% playable, in the future all remaining pinball tables will remain 0% playable.

A couple of dollars is actually pretty expensive for a mobile app - people are conditioned to pay 99 cents at most on iOS for apps these days. Even a $16 app by a noted developer is often marked as "too expensive" on reviews (look up Square Enix's apps) - so apps costing more than 99 cents tend to have to work hard for it.

If you look at the iTunes reviews, you'll find TPA consistently reviewed as "expensive" (which it is for a mobile app alone). I'm surprised the Mac version is only $10 (for all 4 initial tables) - that's probably the "cheap" side for a computer game. Heck, I'm planning on getting it for the Xbox where it's the same price. While convenient, it does assume everyone is willing ot pay the same price for the various platforms, which isn't correct - mobile users demand cheap apps, while I'm sure they could charge $20 quite reasonable for PC and Mac, and 10-15 on consoles.

Of course, the biggest thing I'd like is some QA on it - making sure the existing tables at least work (ahem, MM no playfield lights).