What happens with Zen's designers?

The Williams and Bally license are a huge get for Zen as a whole, but I wonder what will happen with Zen's talented team of designers. I know they will continue to produce some Zen tables alongside the reproductions but there will be far fewer Zen designs.

Does Zen focus on only letting their most talented designers ("Deep", Crofts, and "Ndever") make new tables and to guarantee every one is a hit, or continue giving new designers a chance to show what they can do?

Hopefully all of Zen's designers have a home at the new look Zen studios

As you said, they've said they're still doing originals. And referred simply to a "pinball team," rather than there being two seperate ones, and made mention of the fact that their company has already practiced utilizing shared resources, even between pinball and non-pinball projects.

So I really can't believe they'd be getting rid of anyone, especially since they probably need more resources than ever now.

Yeah, they've got 40 people dedicated to pinball alone. The focus apparently is going to be mostly on the WMS tables, but there'll be 2 new originals at the start of 2019, and they are not going to let their licenses sit idle either. What I am hoping for is that when they do start doing the 3rd party WMS machines, that they also use that license to create an original version. So take Indiana Jones, how cool would it be if they also designed 2 other tables within the Indy universe to make a pack? Mel said that certain IPs can't be bundled with others, that the holders want their property to be showcased. That'd be a hell of a way to do just that.

shutyertrap said:

So take Indiana Jones, how cool would it be if they also designed 2 other tables within the Indy universe to make a pack? Mel said that certain IPs can't be bundled with others, that the holders want their property to be showcased. That'd be a hell of a way to do just that.

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Oh man, that's actually a really cool idea. I'd buy those packs.

On the other hand, imagine the whining.

"Ew, why do I have to pay the price of a bundle when there's a BORING real table in it I don't want?! What a ripoff!"

Citizen said:

Oh man, that's actually a really cool idea. I'd buy those packs.

On the other hand, imagine the whining.

"Ew, why do I have to pay the price of a bundle when there's a BORING real table in it I don't want?! What a ripoff!"

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Twist that the other way around and that's fair enough to me. The last thing i want to see is fictional tables bundled in with real ones. Zen have my full support where the real tables are concerned, i have no interest in fictional tables. Start selling them in a bundle together and they've lost me as a customer. Like i said in another post, i'll be watching from the sidelines with this for a while see how they choose to do it. If Zen wish to sell WMS tables in bundles, no problem, i understand it cuts down costs absolutely, but keep real and fictional tables apart please.

I honestly don't think you have anything to worry about, at any rate.

While Zen could probably get some 3rd party license holders to agree, Scientific Games would still have to approve the bundles, and I doubt they'd allow their assets to be sold at discounted bundle pricing if everything in the bundle wasn't theirs.

From what it seems, I don’t think Scientific is in the picture other than to collect royalties. So long as their cut doesn’t change, there’d be no issue. I guess this is a question I can ask Mel next week.

Shutyertrap, your bundle idea is a really interesting one. If that's the way Zen chooses to go id be really excited for that. To your point Mel Kirk mentioned that they haven't unveiled the full scope of the Williams/Bally announcement yet and that another big announcement was coming in a few weeks. Maybe that could be it? (Or maybe you already know and have been sworn to secrecy...)

In my original post, when I mentioned hoping every designer has a place at the new look Zen I didn't only mean that I hoped that they all have jobs, I also mean that I worry that some really talented designers might get left behind. It could be a really bad demotion for a designer to go from making their own unique tables, and leading the team that builds it, to then be reproducing somebody else's 30 year old table. I hope there is enough original design work to keep their stable of designers happy

Jamman39 said:

Shutyertrap, your bundle idea is a really interesting one. If that's the way Zen chooses to go id be really excited for that. To your point Mel Kirk mentioned that they haven't unveiled the full scope of the Williams/Bally announcement yet and that another big announcement was coming in a few weeks. Maybe that could be it? (Or maybe you already know and have been sworn to secrecy...)

In my original post, when I mentioned hoping every designer has a place at the new look Zen I didn't only mean that I hoped that they all have jobs, I also mean that I worry that some really talented designers might get left behind. It could be a really bad demotion for a designer to go from making their own unique tables, and leading the team that builds it, to then be reproducing somebody else's 30 year old table. I hope there is enough original design work to keep their stable of designers happy

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In one of the interviews Mel did this past week, he mentioned that most of these guys in Budapest grew up under Soviet rule, didn't get a chance to experience most of these machines when young, and so it's incredibly exciting for them to do so now. I imagine it'd kind of be like a car designer getting to restore a classic car. No, you don't get to put your own creative designs in but you do get to closely study all the components and visual flare that made it become a classic in the first place. You see a stripped down pinball playfield and it's so much different than you think. You start examining all the ways in which toys and under field ball troughs work, it's going to instruct future design. If anything I think Zen originals are only going to get better because of this.

I too really like that bundle idea!

Best...bundle....idea....ever....

Well played Sir, .

+1 to that idea.

Also, I’m really hoping they add the new WMS physics as an option for all new original tables, and even consider adding it to their older stuff. I’d buy everything in a heartbeat.

Jeff Strong said:

+1 to that idea.

Also, I’m really hoping they add the new WMS physics as an option for all new original tables, and even consider adding it to their older stuff. I’d buy everything in a heartbeat.

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Agreed. I really enjoyed all of Zen's tables but after playing FT and played Sorcerer's Lair, It doesn't even compare to what you've done with the physics for the Williams table. It just doesn't feel right. I'm eager to get the SW Solo pack but I may wait as I'll have to quit the beta and reinstall it to play them and vice Versa.

That's a good bundle idea. I wonder if Disney would have to weigh in on it?

Something that I'd like to see Zen add to their tables is a "table exploration mode" like TPA has on its 'Pro' tables. I use it all the time (when available) to check out and read some of the teeny printing in some areas, and to get a close look at areas of a table that are giving me trouble or doing apparently strange things. Plus it's just cool to be able to take a really close look at some of the pins that you never see in the wild, or ever for that matter.
Does anyone else use it or is it just me?

Zen has always had table exploration, and it’s in game and better angles! On a controller, just hold the square (PS4) / X (Xbox) button and then navigate with analogue stick. It puts TPA’s to shame being able to do it in the fly, plus not being charged extra for something you should always have been able to do.

shutyertrap said:

Zen has always had table exploration, and it’s in game and better angles! On a controller, just hold the square (PS4) / X (Xbox) button and then navigate with analogue stick. It puts TPA’s to shame being able to do it in the fly, plus not being charged extra for something you should always have been able to do.

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I just tried Zen's table exploration mode, and I must say that I'm unimpressed. I can't get it to work at all from the keyboard, and after plugging in an Xbox 1 controller I got it to work, I guess, but it's very limited compared to the TPA version. The Zen exp mode point of view will move around with a joystick, but automatically move back to center when you let go, and no zoom or x-axis tilt. The TPA version will stay in place once you move it somewhere, you can zoom in and out with the flippers (can't remember if I tried that on Zen), and you can tilt the x-axis with the page up and page down keys or the Xbox triggers.
For my nickel, and as someone that uses a keyboard based controller (X-Arcade), TPA's exploration mode is much better than what I've found on Zen.
If you can tell me how to do the same stuff on the Zen tables I'd be grateful.

Just went back and tried the Xbox buttons and triggers - does nothing.

edit: changed y-axis to x-axis. The rotation is on the x-axis and changes the view on the y-axis. Had to take off my shoes and socks to sort that out....

dmil666 said:

I just tried Zen's table exploration mode, and I must say that I'm unimpressed. I can't get it to work at all from the keyboard, and after plugging in an Xbox 1 controller I got it to work, I guess, but it's very limited compared to the TPA version. The Zen exp mode point of view will move around with a joystick, but automatically move back to center when you let go, and no zoom or x-axis tilt. The TPA version will stay in place once you move it somewhere, you can zoom in and out with the flippers (can't remember if I tried that on Zen), and you can tilt the x-axis with the page up and page down keys or the Xbox triggers.
For my nickel, and as someone that uses a keyboard based controller (X-Arcade), TPA's exploration mode is much better than what I've found on Zen.
If you can tell me how to do the same stuff on the Zen tables I'd be grateful.

Just went back and tried the Xbox buttons and triggers - does nothing.

edit: changed y-axis to x-axis. The rotation is on the x-axis and changes the view on the y-axis. Had to take off my shoes and socks to sort that out....

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And I've had the exact opposite problem with TPA. The only way to view the table using a controller is straight over the top and you can move up and down the field but not angle on it. At one time it worked as it should, but after an update one time, no dice. The most important thing Zen has though is the ability to be playing the game, push and hold that button, and go straight into exploration. It does me no good to hear a callout for an extra ball, not knowing where to shoot for it, and then have to exit the game, go into pro mode, go into table exploration, try and find it without the benefit of being lit, then start the game back up and hope that some other callout doesn't happen that will require me to do the same thing.

In the real world, you catch the ball and then lean over the table to find what you need to shoot at, then go back to playing. That is what Zen has done here. Way more useful, way more immediate. Are you able to get real close and at funky angles? No, but how often did you do that in TPA?

Jeff Strong said:

+1 to that idea.

Also, I’m really hoping they add the new WMS physics as an option for all new original tables, and even consider adding it to their older stuff. I’d buy everything in a heartbeat.

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This would be the best news ever if they add the new WMS physics as an option for all of their tables. I'd buy everything in less than a heartbeat.

shutyertrap said:

And I've had the exact opposite problem with TPA. The only way to view the table using a controller is straight over the top and you can move up and down the field but not angle on it. At one time it worked as it should, but after an update one time, no dice. The most important thing Zen has though is the ability to be playing the game, push and hold that button, and go straight into exploration. It does me no good to hear a callout for an extra ball, not knowing where to shoot for it, and then have to exit the game, go into pro mode, go into table exploration, try and find it without the benefit of being lit, then start the game back up and hope that some other callout doesn't happen that will require me to do the same thing.

In the real world, you catch the ball and then lean over the table to find what you need to shoot at, then go back to playing. That is what Zen has done here. Way more useful, way more immediate. Are you able to get real close and at funky angles? No, but how often did you do that in TPA?

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Good points, and situations that I've found myself in more than once, now that I think about it. I've tried pausing TPA to take a better look at a place on the table and you get that damned 'pause menu' that you can't move or see around which made me think unkind words about the designers. That's made me get in the habit of doing my looking around post-mortem on a game.
I still prefer the way that the TPA version actually functions once you're in it over the Zen (old eyes need magnification), and I'd probably be more in tune with the Zen tool if I could get it to work from the keyboard. The Xbox-style controllers are rather uncomfortable for me to use (old finger and wrist joints) plus they just don't 'feel' right for playing pinball. Whine whine.

If Zen could get their exploration tool to work from a keyboard and have a magnification function, I'd be a happier camper on their tables.

Cheers

p.s. I use the funky angles all the time in TPA exploration. The balls-eye view can let you work out why a ball acts like it does in certain areas, plus it's just cool to see how the tables are put together and to find artwork that you normally can't see very well in the camera views. Pinball tables are a pretty unique form of art.

I doubt that Zen could introduce WMS physics into their original library. Probably too many ramps would become unhittable if they did, a lot of their shots were designed knowing that they could guide the balls into them. It might be fun to try but would get really frustrating really fast