Why is real pinball so much harder than TPA?

I recently found a real TOM, and didn't do nearly as well on it as I do on TPA, yet I can't seem to figure out why that is. Assuming there are no mechanical problems, such as weak flippers or improper leveling, the real machine should be easier, as you can perform live catches and other flipper techniques, and the ball doesn't bounce as much (especially the mega-frustrating off the flipper down the outlane). Yet I find getting the ball where you want it to go is much more challenging on a real machine. What is it that's different?

Someone, I can't remember who said:
'The ball is wild'...

Check latest PAPA tourney for scores by the Best Players in the world on well maintained machines...
(I know the settings are different - but hey).

Pinball was designed to grab a quarter in about 3 mins.
Playing 20-30min games SHOULD be hard-If not impossible (well for
Me for sure! )

Andy

Must have spent £7 tonight trying to get a decent score on TZ only for the table to lose the ball after a piano shot :-(

Really disappointing as it was one of my better games too! I got the 332 million before the table decided it was time for me to go home :-(

Richard B said:

I recently found a real TOM, and didn't do nearly as well on it as I do on TPA, yet I can't seem to figure out why that is. Assuming there are no mechanical problems, such as weak flippers or improper leveling, the real machine should be easier, as you can perform live catches and other flipper techniques, and the ball doesn't bounce as much (especially the mega-frustrating off the flipper down the outlane). Yet I find getting the ball where you want it to go is much more challenging on a real machine. What is it that's different?

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TPA has perfect conditions, and I mean absolute mathematical perfection without any variations and outside influences. Therefor the game, trajectories, shots, kickouts and paths are, after you get to know the table, very predictable.

Exactly! A real pinball machine can have all sorts of issues from a weak flipper, improperly leveled not to mention the setting for TILT sensitivity, but the thing I notice is how PREDICTABLE TPA is Im sure if I owned a machine I could eventually get good enough to predict the path of the ball 50% but to sit down and play 1 game comparing TPA Vs. REAL TPA will score higher. The flipper physics are STRONG on TPA giving a false sense of gravity compared to REAL where you can FEEL the weight of the ball. I played 4 new tables today Family Guy,BATMAN DK,TRANS FORMERS(love this game) and LOTR all had variations in flipper feel.

Not to mention nudging. It's a ton harder to shake a 300+ pound machine than it is to shake a mobile phone or flick an analog stick. The nudging in TPA has a lot more effect on the ball than in real life

100% AGREED! You see a SDTM nudge and nothing but assuring a SDTM. I tilt alot thinking TPA, I know depends on table settings etc. SHAKE IT UP! First test..how much can you bump it.

There's two possibilities , 1 , you have gotten used to the physics of TPA which are not real but simulated ,
or 2 , you only remember your good games , in a real arcade you probably will not stand there for hours
playing game after game like you would sitting in your home playing TPA.

So you discard all the times you sucked , and only remember the times you were good , then you go to the arcade
play a few times , less than you would at home.

I found that getting used to the TPA physics kind of messed me up in real life pinball playing.
For instance , in the bride of pinbot , when you pull the plunger you will get the top skill prize every time.
In real life I could only get up to 10,000 not the 25,000 or whatever it is.
And in real life it took all of 30 seconds before my game was over.
I was like WTF ? lol
On the TPA I play and play and play like a champ.
Of course I can play for hours all I want.

My opinion of TPA physics are that ...
Zen pinball is too heavy.
Farsight is too light.
If you could have the ball be right in between Zen pinball and Farsight , not too heavy and not too light , that would
be about right.

Also in real life the pinball would catch air preventing that perfect speed shot.

I've been thinking about doing a video comparison of real pinball vs. pinball arcade , I
have access to most of the real pinball tables but not all of them , featured in the pinball arcade.

I just want the video for myself really , I just want to compare.

I walk away from the real tables thinking the same thing , "WTF happened ? I'm so good at home." , funny.

Nitroforce said:

I've been thinking about doing a video comparison of real pinball vs. pinball arcade , I
have access to most of the real pinball tables but not all of them , featured in the pinball arcade.

I just want the video for myself really , I just want to compare.

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If you could make that video of just the tables you have access to, I'd also like to see it, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Maybe even FS could benefit from it.

Richard B said:
If you could make that video of just the tables you have access to, I'd also like to see it, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Maybe even FS could benefit from it.

I'm headed to Vegas for thanksgiving.. I'm sure as shiat gonna head here: http://www.pinballmuseum.org/

they have everything except for TotAN, but I'll take a vid of all of them (TPA titles) in action for posterity

Richard B said:

I recently found a real TOM, and didn't do nearly as well on it as I do on TPA, yet I can't seem to figure out why that is. Assuming there are no mechanical problems, such as weak flippers or improper leveling, the real machine should be easier, as you can perform live catches and other flipper techniques, and the ball doesn't bounce as much (especially the mega-frustrating off the flipper down the outlane). Yet I find getting the ball where you want it to go is much more challenging on a real machine. What is it that's different?

Click to expand...

Five things:

• Nudging: As mentioned earlier, it's far easier to move an analog stick 1 centimeter than it is to move a 120 kg table.
• Liberal tilt setting: You can get away with murder on TPA tables. Not so much (usually) on the real things.
• Predictability: Sometimes FarSight changes the physics, but in between updates, once you find a shot or learn a kickout, it never changes. Real tables are not so predictable; the local TZ here has a slot machine kickout that varies minute by minute!
• Spin: I am not sure if TPA's physics engine emulates ball spin, and if it doesn't, I'm not sure if it's because the engine simply doesn't do that or if it's a side effect of the predictability (i.e., the kickouts are always in perfect alignment so the ball never gets any spin).
• Replays/specials are extra balls: Most real machines are not set this way.

I agree with others about the Farsight implementations: they're perfect pinball, which makes the tables predictable. Even the bugs are predictable! But the real world is messier. Slight imperfections in a table surface, improper flipper adjustments (even by a few millimeters), air time and hitting the table glass (which never happens in Farsight games): all of those are part of real pinball. Even on a mint condition table, solenoids don't behave the same each time.

It might be fun to have an option to "dirty" up the tables, to make them behave a bit more erratically.

That said, I'm enjoying PA because it makes me feel like I'm a much better player than I actually am.

Jay said:

I agree with others about the Farsight implementations: they're perfect pinball, which makes the tables predictable. Even the bugs are predictable! But the real world is messier. Slight imperfections in a table surface, improper flipper adjustments (even by a few millimeters), air time and hitting the table glass (which never happens in Farsight games): all of those are part of real pinball. Even on a mint condition table, solenoids don't behave the same each time.

It might be fun to have an option to "dirty" up the tables, to make them behave a bit more erratically.

That said, I'm enjoying PA because it makes me feel like I'm a much better player than I actually am.

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It's a bit annoying that you can't directly transfer your skills on to real world tables though.

Just ends in disappointment 9 times out of 10

Carl Spiby said:

It's a bit annoying that you can't directly transfer your skills on to real world tables though.

Just ends in disappointment 9 times out of 10

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Imagine the dissapointment of people who attempt to transfer their skills to real life from Madden, Fifa, Gran Turismo or dare I say it, Call of Duty

I may not be able to transfer my skillz, but what TPA does do for me is give me better knowledge of the rules when I walk up to a machine.

bavelb said:

Imagine the dissapointment of people who attempt to transfer their skills to real life from Madden, Fifa, Gran Turismo or dare I say it, Call of Duty

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Ok, fair point

bavelb said:

Imagine the dissapointment of people who attempt to transfer their skills to real life from Madden, Fifa, Gran Turismo or dare I say it, Call of Duty

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After a marathon of Crazy Taxi, I pulled a really stupid move on the freeway once. I stopped playing for a few weeks after that.

Fungi said:

After a marathon of Crazy Taxi, I pulled a really stupid move on the freeway once. I stopped playing for a few weeks after that.

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Same reason why I always take the bus home after I go go-karting with friends....

Fungi said:

After a marathon of Crazy Taxi, I pulled a really stupid move on the freeway once. I stopped playing for a few weeks after that.

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BWAAAAAhahahaha! I did the exact same thing. It scared the everloving crap out of me. I think I quit playing video games altogether for a good while.

bavelb said:

Imagine the dissapointment of people who attempt to transfer their skills to real life from Madden, Fifa, Gran Turismo or dare I say it, Call of Duty

Click to expand...

Let me tell you about how many of my friends were dismayed to find they weren't actually Guitar Heroes in real life.

I do actually think the skills transfer apart from learning ruleset, just not to the same degree you THINK it did/should.

I think you can let someone play a real table, measure how they do, then let them practice on TPA (even if they are different tables to prevent the "learning the ruleset" effect) for prolongued time, then let them go back to the real thing and they will have improved as TPA helps you recognize patterns, angles , tricks, risks, bounces and likely responses. The thing is, TPA is so realistic in its simulations (much more so than the aforementioned other videogames), you expect these skills to improve much more than they have in the real world so it ends up a bit jarring. When I played some real tables last week I kept thinking " I know what to do here, but I just can't execute it...yet" but also a lot of " hey that shouldnt have happened" when a ball took a weird bounce or its path went crooked.