What Licenses Would Give FarSight The Best Bang For Their Buck?

CC13 · Jan 12, 2013

We've all had our frustrations with FarSight's inability to get big licenses on a whim, but what licenses does it make the most sense for them to target? Here are my own thoughts:

-Batman: This is the archetypal "pricy-but-you-get-what-you-pay-for" license for FarSight. Batman has spawned three pinball machines over the years, with DE's Batman usually being seen as slightly above average to good, Batman Forever as good to great and TDK as great to excellent. If the rumors about WB Interactive being FarSight's new publisher are true, then this could fall into FarSight's lap more easily than we expect.

-LotR: This one will also have three tables based on it before too long, including Stern's 2003 table, Jersey Jack's upcoming sophomore effort and Atari's Middle-Earth deck. Again, it might be costly, but LotR is one of the few tables very many people would consider paying $9.99 for, so FarSight should work hard for this one.

-Star Wars: This one actually gave rise to 5 decks, if memory serves, including one that, for better or worse, is definitely a benchmark: Star Wars Episode 1. This is definitely one for quantity over quality, as the three best-known tables here all suffer from having the center shot be both very important and very easy to hit. Still, the Star Wars brand could be useful indeed to FarSight, especially since the voices in my head say to keep watch for an Episode VII pin when that film comes out...

Am I on to something with those licenses or should I just burn the money for all the good it'd do? More to the point, what licenses would you guys say are the best use of FarSight's money and time?

Bowflex · Jan 12, 2013

It's a bit more complicated...Farsight themselves have stated that acquiring the licenses needed to create Star Trek TNG does not even get them started in the process for any of the other Star Trek tables over the years. Obviously each table that features Batman would have different likenesses, visually and sonically, that would require ancilliary licensing. It would certainly be possible to obtain a license that would cover the rights to Batman for all the various tables made over the years but it isn't necessarily guaranteed that they would negotiate that or it is financially feasible.

The biggest question mark is pricing. Nobody on this board is privy to the demands of the license holders. Just because a licensed property is more successful than another one has no bearing on the price that will be commanded. The license holders may have a perceived value of their property or they may need to recoup costs for losses from the original property. Say you have Johnny Mnemonic and it costs 100 million to make but only achieved a box office of $50 million. The owners of that license and the production company are still going to look to recover all of the lost money they can so subsequent licensing could be inflated.
We also have the variable of being able to accurately predict sales. Based on popularity from top 100 polls it would be easy to get a basic prediction but some other things play into that. What game is it paired with, what is the pricing strategy, and even unexpected (un)popularity of something that differs from its historical success. Ripley's had moderate sales for Stern but now there is reportedly huge interest in it because of TPA.

To make a long answer short, there are just too many variables and too much proprietary information to be able to answer this question.

Biff · Jan 12, 2013

I hate it to say that, because lotsa people scream it everyday... but the one table that starts with Addam.... would sell pretty good.

I'm just happy that they plan to kickstart my favorite table Terminator 2 in 2013...

Rudy · Jan 12, 2013

For 'bang for your buck' I'd say that Farsight have already secured some of the best value for money ones with Harley Davidson, Elvira's and Monster Bash, given that it's very likely that the liscence holders either made a very generous offer, or approached Farsight themselves.

In fact, I'd go on to say that there's no guarentee that premium tables are outselling table packs so a 'premium' liscence would probably not be the best 'bang for your buck' kind of thing. Yes, everyone would probably buy The Addams Family, but the costs involved would probably make it the least profitable table on the platform.

If you consider that the 'premium' tables have had kickstarters of around $30k then it's likely that Farsight's regular cut off is between $5-10k, what we need to do is think about tables with cheap liscences but wide appeal in order to find the best 'bang for your buck' table.

In that scenario I'd say that Rollercoaster Tycoon would be the best value for money. It's nowhere near being the best Pat Lawler table but it's cheap, easy and will certainly sell well. Harley Davidson isn't particularly deep or challenging but it's very easy to just pick up and play and would get more people interested in pinball than if they played Twilight Zone and kept getting balls drained mercilessly.

Other 'cheap' but notable licences I can think of off the top of my head:

Monopoly - not sure though, in my head it's a lot bigger liscence than it appears to be.
The Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle - Interesting design and probably one of the cheaper Data East/Stern tables to negotiate a deal for.
Elvis - it's a bland table, but Elvis representatives are interested and well, they might be able to offer a really generous package. I remember hearing that they would be ok with someone playing covers of the songs, which makes me wonder if they could just get someone to create some instrumentals that sound like classic midi's so that players could 'sing along' without being distracted by a horrible vocalist covering it.

Biff · Jan 12, 2013

Rudy said:
Yes, everyone would probably buy Addam****, but the costs involved would probably make it the least profitable table on the platform.

These costs are covered by insane kickstarters who would give their last shirt to play the table.

PS: I also want to play RCT.

Rudy Yagov · Jan 12, 2013

Rudy said:
Elvis - it's a bland table, but Elvis representatives are interested and well, they might be able to offer a really generous package. I remember hearing that they would be ok with someone playing covers of the songs, which makes me wonder if they could just get someone to create some instrumentals that sound like classic midi's so that players could 'sing along' without being distracted by a horrible vocalist covering it.

How is Elvis "bland"? It's a great table that uses the theme well, and it was designed by Steve Ritchie. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's one of my favorite Sterns, and I would take it over any other music themed table.

As for inexpensive licenses, I don't see Corvette being a very difficult one to obtain. You see Vettes and tons of other GM cars in games and movies all the time. GM is probably the most lenient automaker when it comes to this. Corvette is a pretty decent and overlooked table, too.

Pinballfan69 · Jan 12, 2013

I would love to see FS do LOTR. It is my favorite of the modern tables. It's #6 on pinside right now with Avengers just taking #1 over Medieval Madness which is also one of my favs just not on TPA. It's #8 at IPDB some heavy hitters on both databases. Adams family, Indiana Jones, Simpsons, Family guy etc. I already know that T2 is being kickstarted

Richard B · Jan 13, 2013

Avengers #1 - bet that won't last long. It's always the same with a new Stern release - it gets in at least the top 10 when there's only a handful of voters, then steadily drops to its natural position.
Now, as the guy who went to FS HQ said, licensing one table does not automatically guarantee access to any other tables that use the same license. The example he used was Indiana Jones - getting the license will not allow FS to make both the Stern and Williams versions, even though they are the same property, and don't feature many exclusive likenesses (I suppose Crystal Skull's inclusion in the Stern table probably means Shia and some other actors' likenesses on the table). This makes the Terminator 2 idea even worse.

pseudokings · Jan 13, 2013

Okay... here we go:
+ DC Comics - Batman (DE), Batman (DK-Stern), Batman Forever (Sega), Superman (Atari) - If Zen and Marvel (Disney) have a deal that may preclude the bunch of great Marvel themed Stern pins from ever being added to TPA, why not try and make a deal with DC Comics (Time Warner) as a counterpoint? Maybe cook up an original table with Pat Lawlor or Steve Ritchie or someone of similar awesomeness based off of another major DC comic or movie (Man Of Steel is coming)... It's a thought. Also, I for one, LOVE Batman (DK-Stern), and Batman Forever is maybe the most highly regarded SEGA table, if not surely in the top 5.
+ Elvis - gotta agree with Rudy Yagov and say the table is far from bland, and might just be good bang-for-the-buck (if the estate is sane about the $), might even get Stern's help making it happen.
+ The Shadow - Movie bombed, table is really highly regarded, might be too much $, depending on Alec Baldwin, the movie studio, and possibly the original comic rights holder (?), but worth looking in to.
+ The Addams Family - most popular table of all-time, hands down. If they can figure it out, it should sell better than any other DLC table, easily.
+ LOTR - with The Hobbit trilogy going on in theatre for the the next year and a half, interest would likely be high, possibly high enough to get past the expense, plus it's a really highly rated table.
+ The Getaway - if ZZ Top is even half-way reasonable about the midi "La Grange" license, get it, if not, drop the song from the game (ala CFTBL), and do the table anyway, ASAP.
+ World Cup Soccer - FIFA is probably borderline insane on the license, BUT, it is a license for the 1994 World Cup, NOT the next one, and if put to them as "hey, either we give you a few bucks to recreate this pinball table, or you never make another dime off the '94 Cup", they might be reasonable. And everyone in the (true) fan base wants the table in TPA.
+ T3 - if they are doing T2 as a Kickstarter, make T3 part of the deal too. Majorly underrated table with a ton of great shots, probably more fun than T2.
+ Judge Dredd - it's just the comic license. It's an Ultrapin (widebody). Get it done.
+ Indianapolis 500 - it's just the track and the (awesome) trophy, not any particular racing series, and looks like a really excellent table.
+ Goldeneye - it's "Pierce Bond", maybe that is passe enough at MGM, they'd cut FS a deal, and it's another of the most highly rated SEGA tables.
+ Congo - movie = massive bomb at the box office, pin = excellent design, with surprisingly good art. This one's gotta be as cheap as a movie table can be. Do it.
+ Corvette - appeal to GM's sense of Americana. They're pretty into that these days, post bailout. George Gomez table.
+ Rocky & Bullwinkle & Friends - Awesome looking DE table. Cheap license, I'd bet. Zen table might create some kind of a license issue, though.
+ Monopoly - underrated table that should be a cheap license.
+ Stargate - should be a cheap license for one of Gottlieb's only DMD tables that anyone actually likes, right? maybe not with the actor likenesses...
+ Tales From The Crypt - already rumored, so do it. Great looking table, cheap license, or at least you'd hope.
+ Starship Troopers - sleeper table, cheap license, you'd think.
+ Johnny Mnemonic - sleeper table, cheap license, actor likeness could be an issue...

Others I'd love to see but seem more difficult/costly/not so good bang-for-buck (and excluding anything I know is now owned by Disney, which is sadly a ton of great tables): KISS, X-Files, Baywatch, Bram Stoker's Dracula (maybe doable), Jurassic Park, Transformers, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, Guns N' Roses, Tommy, Demolition Man, Flintstones, AC/DC, & Wizard Of OZ.

shutyertrap · Jan 13, 2013

That is correct. Whatever license FS goes for, it is for that table and that table alone. I think the confusion is from them doing both Elvira tables, but it too was 2 separate license deals.

Indy and Star Wars are now going to be extremely tough as Disney doesn't wanna play nice with FS. If I had to guess, that has more to do with royalty fees and the limited size of the market for TPA. Disney views themselves as a brand draw and likes a major piece of the action. Many companies have been willing to lose money making Disney products just for the exposure it got them. Make your predictions accordingly.

I think the 'Judge Dredd' table would be a good license, as it is based on the comic, not the movie. 2000 AD holds the rights.

'Dirty Harry' is a good choice too as Clint is the only actor who's image is portrayed. Very profitable movie franchise, but not actively so anymore, seems it could be gotten on the cheap.

I mentioned to Bobby 'Rollergames', said 2 main issues would be it being a barely aired TV show and all the Pepsi branding on it. He shrugged his shoulders and said, "who knows, never dealt with Pepsi before". It almost came across as if it sounded like a new opportunity to check out. Plus I just want that table!!

shutyertrap · Jan 13, 2013

pseudokings said:
Okay... here we go:
+ DC Comics - Batman (DE), Batman (DK-Stern), Batman Forever (Sega), Superman (Atari) - If Zen and Marvel (Disney) have a deal that may preclude the bunch of great Marvel themed Stern pins from ever being added to TPA, why not try and make a deal with DC Comics (Time Warner) as a counterpoint? Maybe cook up an original table with Pat Lawlor or Steve Ritchie or someone of similar awesomeness based off of another major DC comic or movie (Man Of Steel is coming)... It's a thought. Also, I for one, LOVE Batman (DK-Stern), and Batman Forever is maybe the most highly regarded SEGA table, if not surely in the top 5.
+ Elvis - gotta agree with Rudy Yagov and say the table is far from bland, and might just be good bang-for-the-buck (if the estate is sane about the $), might even get Stern's help making it happen.
+ The Shadow - Movie bombed, table is really highly regarded, might be too much $, depending on Alec Baldwin, the movie studio, and possibly the original comic rights holder (?), but worth looking in to.
+ The Addams Family - most popular table of all-time, hands down. If they can figure it out, it should sell better than any other DLC table, easily.
+ LOTR - with The Hobbit trilogy going on in theatre for the the next year and a half, interest would likely be high, possibly high enough to get past the expense, plus it's a really highly rated table.
+ The Getaway - if ZZ Top is even half-way reasonable about the midi "La Grange" license, get it, if not, drop the song from the game (ala CFTBL), and do the table anyway, ASAP.
+ World Cup Soccer - FIFA is probably borderline insane on the license, BUT, it is a license for the 1994 World Cup, NOT the next one, and if put to them as "hey, either we give you a few bucks to recreate this pinball table, or you never make another dime off the '94 Cup", they might be reasonable. And everyone in the (true) fan base wants the table in TPA.
+ T3 - if they are doing T2 as a Kickstarter, make T3 part of the deal too. Majorly underrated table with a ton of great shots, probably more fun than T2.
+ Judge Dredd - it's just the comic license. It's an Ultrapin (widebody). Get it done.
+ Indianapolis 500 - it's just the track and the (awesome) trophy, not any particular racing series, and looks like a really excellent table.
+ Goldeneye - it's "Pierce Bond", maybe that is passe enough at MGM, they'd cut FS a deal, and it's another of the most highly rated SEGA tables.
+ Congo - movie = massive bomb at the box office, pin = excellent design, with surprisingly good art. This one's gotta be as cheap as a movie table can be. Do it.
+ Corvette - appeal to GM's sense of Americana. They're pretty into that these days, post bailout. George Gomez table.
+ Rocky & Bullwinkle & Friends - Awesome looking DE table. Cheap license, I'd bet. Zen table might create some kind of a license issue, though.
+ Monopoly - underrated table that should be a cheap license.
+ Stargate - should be a cheap license for one of Gottlieb's only DMD tables that anyone actually likes, right? maybe not with the actor likenesses...
+ Tales From The Crypt - already rumored, so do it. Great looking table, cheap license, or at least you'd hope.
+ Starship Troopers - sleeper table, cheap license, you'd think.
+ Johnny Mnemonic - sleeper table, cheap license, actor likeness could be an issue...

Others I'd love to see but seem more difficult/costly/not so good bang-for-buck (and excluding anything I know is now owned by Disney, which is sadly a ton of great tables): KISS, X-Files, Baywatch, Bram Stoker's Dracula (maybe doable), Jurassic Park, Transformers, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, Guns N' Roses, Tommy, Demolition Man, Flintstones, AC/DC, & Wizard Of OZ.

As I've mentioned before, with TAF they are having a problem getting certain parties to even talk, as in they won't. So they haven't even gotten to ask how much it would cost.

You can forget about World Cup Soccer or any other sports team table. Hard enough to deal with Player's Association for current rosters, near impossible for old rosters.

T3 cannot be made part of the deal of T2. Completely different set of license holders. If you've ever followed the nightmare of them securing the licenses just to make the movies, it's that times 10 to get them for pinball.

Guns N' Roses and AC/DC are not gonna happen. Nor are most any music based tables. But G'n'R especially, c'mon. Axl would never let that fly.

I think Monopoly, the Getaway, and Indianapolis 500 are fairly realistic.

Bowflex · Jan 13, 2013

No Fear might be a good license. I think the company is defunct so whoever owns the license may be willing to just take whatever because it would be easy money.

pseudokings · Jan 13, 2013

shutyertrap said:
As I've mentioned before, with TAF they are having a problem getting certain parties to even talk, as in they won't. So they haven't even gotten to ask how much it would cost.

You can forget about World Cup Soccer or any other sports team table. Hard enough to deal with Player's Association for current rosters, near impossible for old rosters.

T3 cannot be made part of the deal of T2. Completely different set of license holders. If you've ever followed the nightmare of them securing the licenses just to make the movies, it's that times 10 to get them for pinball.

Guns N' Roses and AC/DC are not gonna happen. Nor are most any music based tables. But G'n'R especially, c'mon. Axl would never let that fly.

I think Monopoly, the Getaway, and Indianapolis 500 are fairly realistic.

Okay, so my point with TAF is IF they could make it happen, they'd easily have a successful Kickstarter, and they'd manage to sell it to a ton of the fools with TPA on their cellphone who have yet to buy even one table, so I think it could be profitable IF it happened, making it good "bang-for-the-buck".

As for WCS'94 I'm not sure with just the use of generic soccer imagery and the fun Dog mascot they'd have to pay anyone other than FIFA as the governing body. Some of these things aren't as democratic as they seem like they should be. Who really knows on this one, but I'm not willing to assume the goalie on Portugal's '94 team is going to get any $ for a pinball machine being recreated that didn't feature his likeness in the first place.

T3 and T2 are going to have at least some of the same licenses, including Arnie, they could at least talk with the ones that were the same about the feasibility/possibility for T3 while working on T2.

I said GNR and AC/DC were very unlikely, just that I'd like to see them happen.

Other than disinterest at FS, it seems to me like Monopoly, The Getaway, Indy 500, Tales From The Crypt, Congo & Corvette would be pretty easy to make happen (at least as easy as any licensed table is). Judge Dredd too.

Clawhammer · Jan 13, 2013

While I admittedly know nothing of licensing costs or procedures, I would love to see Shadow or BSD (Dracula) in TPA; these two games carry licenses that are not enormous (I would think), and both are revered by pinheads, therefore potentially drawing more players into TPA. The only concern I would have is that TS and BSD don't draw nearly as much praise from people less familiar with pinball because they are drainy and the rulesets are not simplistic, i.e. no center shot to bang away it, and good scores depending on stackability and in the case of TS, a repetitive combo shot. Also if TPA made the loop combo in TS easy and consistent to hit, the game would be a total bore.

Rudy Yagov · Jan 13, 2013

Bowflex said:
No Fear might be a good license. I think the company is defunct so whoever owns the license may be willing to just take whatever because it would be easy money.

The problem with No Fear is that it also features a ton of sports figures that they would need to get the license for.

Dutch Pinball ball · Jan 13, 2013

Ac dc premium.

Richard B · Jan 13, 2013

Rudy Yagov said:
The problem with No Fear is that it also features a ton of sports figures that they would need to get the license for.

True, but only their names are featured, not their likenesses (unless a generic character in full safety gear is considered a likeness).

Bowflex · Jan 13, 2013

Richard B said:
True, but only their names are featured, not their likenesses (unless a generic character in full safety gear is considered a likeness).

True. I think they could replace the names. That would be one change that I honestly think could even improve the experience (comedic pseudonyms if done well could add a humorous element).

Sinistar · Jan 13, 2013

Bowflex said:
True. I think they could replace the names. That would be one change that I honestly think could even improve the experience (comedic pseudonyms if done well could add a humorous element).

ya know that's never going to happen , Farsight wont change artwork , wont "fudge" a pinball table just to get a facsimile released, their goal is to preserve the actual tables and make them affordable for the nostalgia and historical value . They do very minor cosmetic changes as in CV , and will use sound alike incendental themes when music bytes are not part of the license , but their contracts only allow them to do a default factory released table , no mods or other enhancements .

Richard B · Jan 13, 2013

Sinistar said:
ya know that's never going to happen , Farsight wont change artwork , wont "fudge" a pinball table just to get a facsimile released, their goal is to preserve the actual tables and make them affordable for the nostalgia and historical value . They do very minor cosmetic changes as in CV , and will use sound alike incendental themes when music bytes are not part of the license , but their contracts only allow them to do a default factory released table , no mods or other enhancements .

So far, they haven't changed the music. For CFTBL, they simply dropped the two tracks they couldn't get cleared. It matters little with that game, as it would never play more than three tunes in a single game anyway. Replacing music would require modding, as would replacing the announcer. It's not that they can't make mods and changes, it's that they have to get permission to do so. It would be tough getting a new announcer to match the original. They'd most likely resort to cutting out the "with XXX" part, so instead of "motocross with Jeremy McGrath", it would be just "motocross." It would be lame, but I suppose it's better than not having it at all, right?

What Licenses Would Give FarSight The Best Bang For Their Buck?

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