Is This Really What The VP/FP Community Has Come To???

Sorry, I wasn't going to get involved in the argument going on at VPForums about FarSight's kickstarter project, but after seeing real pinball supporters like ourselves getting bashed on VPForums just for trying to get the pinball community to help support FarSight in their efforts to preserve classic pinball tables while paying dues to those who made it possible for the original tables to be produced in the first place, I had to give them a piece of my mind and here's a response I had to a ridiculous response to one of my prior posts.

(TedB @ May 20 2012, 05:05 AM)
Come on. All the guys working at the time in the pinball industry will not get a penny from this kickstart or sales. You will not give back money to anyone who was ever involved in that. You will give money to people exploiting the rights they have bought (not FarSight). The original company already made a nice profit with them many years ago.

You are fooling yourself, really. Williams is not creating any Pinball table anymore and still doesn't allow any reproduction of Pinball 2000 tables.
Companies are usually not a bunch of nice people that have your interest in mind. Mostly it is an entity with mainly one goal in mind "profit". Is that bad? No, it is not but it is a fact. In this case I only suggest to keep an open mind to the possibility this development might hurt the community more than it will help.
I know the short term reward can be tempting, but on the long run this could hurt VP and FP innovation. IMO that is where the real future of pinball is.

FarSight could be a great company that have no intention of doing any of the 'evil' stuff. I haven't seen them commenting on VP or FP so don't know their point of view. My main concern is that throwing money at them may stir up things. Be careful what you wish for.

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My response : You're the one fooling yourself...the money FarSight needs for licensing will be going to CBS (who own the license to The Twilight Zone), the estate of Rod Serling, Golden Earring for using their song "Twilight Zone" and George Kooymans for writing the song "Twilight Zone." FarSight has also already paid licensing fees to Stern, Williams and Gottlieb, so don't sit there and tell me anyone involved with these licenses aren't going to get a penny because that's who all the licensing fees plus royalties from the tables sales are going to. I think you've been hanging around the VP/FP community a little too long.

Also, VP and FP is good for creating tables that others may not have any other option of playing them, but now that pinball is somewhat rising from the grave in licensed digital form, the option is now there once again for everyone to support the license holders and I have no problem doing it and neither should anyone else in this community. The fact is, the majority of the people in the VP/FP community have been playing pinball tables for free for so long, that they've forgotten (or don't care anymore) about what's right and wrong and care nothing about supporting the people that made it possible for the original tables to be produced in the first place...but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

VP/FP has no quality control and that's why TPA will always be better. It doesn't even come down to ethics with me, just ease of use, leaderboards, stuff like that... and the price is a steal anyways. I've had too many stupid things go wrong trying to get things to work, or finally getting it to work only to realize it feels all wrong, etc. It's foolish to say VP/FP is the future... I want a polished commercial product ready for the consumer, not a lifelong WIP. Let those guys flap their lips honestly.

Ive read whole topic. And the mayority is not negative towards farsight at all. Or this kickstarter project, i see more positive reactions then negative.

You talk about ''The VP/FP Community'', but thats not fair when only a few members over there dont agree with this kickstart project.

szycag said:

VP/FP has no quality control and that's why TPA will always be better. It doesn't even come down to ethics with me, just ease of use, leaderboards, stuff like that... and the price is a steal anyways. I've had too many stupid things go wrong trying to get things to work, or finally getting it to work only to realize it feels all wrong, etc. It's foolish to say VP/FP is the future... I want a polished commercial product ready for the consumer, not a lifelong WIP. Let those guys flap their lips honestly.

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I agree with you, but what pains me is that many (not all) of the VP/FP community that claim to support pinball as a whole flat out refuse to support and give back to license holders when they get the chance to do so. I've used VPM for years, but now that I have a chance to give back to the companies who have allowed VP and FP to use their copyrighted material to allow us to play their pinball tables on PC for free, I'm more than happy to pay to play properly licensed pinball tables.

szycag said:

VP/FP has no quality control and that's why TPA will always be better. It doesn't even come down to ethics with me, just ease of use, leaderboards, stuff like that... and the price is a steal anyways. I've had too many stupid things go wrong trying to get things to work, or finally getting it to work only to realize it feels all wrong, etc. It's foolish to say VP/FP is the future... I want a polished commercial product ready for the consumer, not a lifelong WIP. Let those guys flap their lips honestly.

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Pinball Arcade isn't exactly polished either, though. It's still very well done, but I hope it gets to the point where it becomes more polished.

PiN WiZ, any chance you could link to the topic? I'd love to read the whole thing (and possibly respond).

Here is the link: http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=19469

As much as I hate to say it, they do have a point in regards to copyright holders. If there's enough money in it, copyright holders may no longer turn a blind eye to VP's use of their properties. He mentioned Pinball 2000 because a working version of Star Wars Ep I was never able to see the light of day due to the threat of lawsuits from Williams, and this may happen a lot more often with other properties.

Richard B said:

As much as I hate to say it, they do have a point in regards to copyright holders. If there's enough money in it, copyright holders may no longer turn a blind eye to VP's use of their properties. A working version of Star Wars Ep I (Pinball 2000) was never able to see the light of day due to the threat of lawsuits from the copyright holder(s), and this may happen a lot more often.

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Perhaps, but VP's previous use/misuse/abuse of licensed material is not FarSight's problem or fault, even if TPA's existence has suddenly awakened licenseholders to what's being done with their properties.

Brian Clark said:

Pinball Arcade isn't exactly polished either, though. It's still very well done, but I hope it gets to the point where it becomes more polished.

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I think you're mistaking polished for perfect. While there are some things they definitely can improve on (physics, Black Hole sound), to say it is unpolished is going a little too far. The game has never crashed, locked up, or became otherwise unplayable at any point, nor have I had trouble with frame rate drops, slowdown, or game-killing bugs.

Richard B said:

As much as I hate to say it, they do have a point in regards to copyright holders. If there's enough money in it, copyright holders may no longer turn a blind eye to VP's use of their properties.

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I have a great amount of respect for the VP table creators......but those kind of concerns sort of remind me of the Napster days......God forbid that we can't get all our music for free so easily anymore...

Worst case scenario, the VP community may have to go underground and use other methods of file sharing such as torrents, just like the music/movie pirates had too......such is life when you break copyright laws.

Honestly though, I don't see that happening, at least not any time soon....but I guess anything could happen.

honestly i think you need to read the topic and not put the opinion of one person on the whole community.

but to each there own.

ive bought all tpa stuff for android to show support. i donated $50 to the kickstarter. but quite honestly i think farsite should concentrate on releasing versions for all the platforms rather than getting licenses for more dlc.
i honestly think the phone versions are not that great, and i dont care to play pinvall on such a small screen. but i still purchased them to support the company.
i dont own a console, but i do have a kick ass pc.
my fear is that the pc version will be a crap heap like the mac version which is basically the same as the ios version.

maybe if we could see some video of the pc version in action like was done with the consoles before they were released, i wouldnt be so weary of the pc release.
with a release date in june or july i would think therewould be something they could show us.

and as far as the vp/fp copyright.
whatever. i make tables because its fun. i only share them because there is a place to do so.
i dont get paid to do it and i dont make money for it. what is the real issue you have with it.
i spent thousands of dollars in the arcades in the eighties and nineties supporting these companies and there licenses, i do not feel bad at all using pinmame or mame.

but i guess to each there own.
i support all pinball and am not biased like many here on this forum are. and ill state once again. tpa is far from polished and has crashed and had slowdowns on both my phone and tablet.
and because i am paying my hard earned money for it i expect more from the program. and btw, the physics definately need some tweaking comming from someone who spends many hours a week playing real machines and who own 2 at the moment.

just my opinion
and we all know what opinions are like

PiN WiZ said:

Also, VP and FP is good for creating tables that others may not have any other option of playing them, but now that pinball is somewhat rising from the grave in licensed digital form, the option is now there once again for everyone to support the license holders and I have no problem doing it and neither should anyone else in this community. The fact is, the majority of the people in the VP/FP community have been playing pinball tables for free for so long, that they've forgotten (or don't care anymore) about what's right and wrong and care nothing about supporting the people that made it possible for the original tables to be produced in the first place...but hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

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I haven't been following the thread, but your reply is as condescending as anything the VP community may have said about TPA.

I have a lot of respect for the VP folks. What they do, they do because they love it, not because they are trying to make a buck from it. They allow us to play 100's of tables that we could never have the ability to play. So I support them.

But I also will support Farsight. Their level of detail and play on the tables they've released thus far are higher than what VP produces. As long as they continue, I will continue to buy them, even if they are tables I don't particularly like.

It's a win/win situation for all of us that enjoy pinball. Trying to paint one side or the other as bad because they do/don't pay fees, etc is just stupid.

unclewilly said:

honestly i think you need to read the topic and not put the opinion of one person on the whole community.

but to each there own.

ive bought all tpa stuff for android to show support. i donated $50 to the kickstarter. but quite honestly i think farsite should concentrate on releasing versions for all the platforms rather than getting licenses for more dlc.
i honestly think the phone versions are not that great, and i dont care to play pinvall on such a small screen. but i still purchased them to support the company.
i dont own a console, but i do have a kick ass pc.
my fear is that the pc version will be a crap heap like the mac version which is basically the same as the ios version.

maybe if we could see some video of the pc version in action like was done with the consoles before they were released, i wouldnt be so weary of the pc release.
with a release date in june or july i would think therewould be something they could show us.

and as far as the vp/fp copyright.
whatever. i make tables because its fun. i only share them because there is a place to do so.
i dont get paid to do it and i dont make money for it. what is the real issue you have with it.
i spent thousands of dollars in the arcades in the eighties and nineties supporting these companies and there licenses, i do not feel bad at all using pinmame or mame.

but i guess to each there own.
i support all pinball and am not biased like many here on this forum are. and ill state once again. tpa is far from polished and has crashed and had slowdowns on both my phone and tablet.
and because i am paying my hard earned money for it i expect more from the program. and btw, the physics definately need some tweaking comming from someone who spends many hours a week playing real machines and who own 2 at the moment.

just my opinion
and we all know what opinions are like

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You're right, it's not the entire VP/FP community that refuses to support those who have allowed them to use their copyrighted material for community use, but there seems to be more people in the VP/FP community bashing what FarSight is trying to do than supporting them.

Also, I have no problem with anyone not wanting to support FarSight if they are not getting what they want from the product, but I do have a problem with people saying why should they pay for something they're getting for free.

Last, but certainly not least, my problem with the copyright issues is that over the many years I've been a part of the VP/FP community, I've heard them say that if they were able to, they would gladly support license holders if a product was ever released where they could do so. Now that the time has come, many people in the VP/FP community are just content with playing the tables for free rather than throwing their support behind a properly licensed product. You see, I think most people in the VP/FP community never thought in their wildest dreams that any developer would go after and pay the rights to reproduce any of the heavily licensed tables, but now that it's happening before their very eyes, many of them are worried about the possibility of not getting to play pinball for free which is why many of them refuse to support a project like this because they don't want to see FarSight succeed in their efforts.

are you sure you read the topic. i really only see one guy really knocking putting money toward giving money for licensing.

do you really have any idea how many people in that community also make up tpa community.

if you dont think the majority of the people in the vp/fp community have purchased tpa, you are sadly mistaken.
and i can garuntee that if the pc version isnt a piece of crap like the mac version turned out to be, the rest of the community will be purchasing tpa.

unclewilly said:

are you sure you read the topic. i really only see one guy really knocking putting money toward giving money for licensing.

do you really have any idea how many people in that community also make up tpa community.

if you dont think the majority of the people in the vp/fp community have purchased tpa, you are sadly mistaken.
and i can garuntee that if the pc version isnt a piece of crap like the mac version turned out to be, the rest of the community will be purchasing tpa.

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Let's see, TheMcD (VPF Staff), Rawd, CaptainNeo, JonBaker, destruk (VPF Staff), Joe, grimwasere and TedB all knocked the idea of supporting FarSight and to me it's real sad when VPF Staff members chime in and clearly do not support a legit project like this.

I have nothing against you UW, we both like VP/FP and clearly support FarSight in what they're trying to accomplish, but there was clearly more than one person in that topic that was against what FarSight is trying to do.

PiN WiZ said:

Let's see, TheMcD (VPF Staff), Rawd, CaptainNeo, JonBaker, destruk (VPF Staff), Joe, grimwasere and TedB all knocked the idea of supporting FarSight and to me it's real sad when VPF Staff members chime in and clearly do not support a legit project like this.

I have nothing against you UW, we both like VP/FP and clearly support FarSight in what they're trying to accomplish, but there was clearly more than one person in that topic that was against what FarSight is trying to do.

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I've started sending emails to the game review/podcasting websites that have said good things about pinball arcade. If the kick starter gets some attention in the press this has the possibility to succeed both now and for future.

I'm both a farsight customer and vp guy and I'd like to show that not all of us are against putting money towards something I have had free for many years. I'm sorry that you guys got into it with each other because the vp guys are really good people that share the same niche hobby as the people here. The goal is common, preserve pinball. I think that if the vp guys knew that success of farsight wouldn't mean the demise of vpmame you would get a ton more support out of them. Honestly there are a ton of people over there with just as much, if not more passion for preserving pinball because it all done for love of it. But if they fear all of that will go away if new liscence holders are going to shut them down they are gonna defend a decade of hard work. Playing nice together will only make pinball stronger.

Richard B said:

I think you're mistaking polished for perfect. While there are some things they definitely can improve on (physics, Black Hole sound), to say it is unpolished is going a little too far. The game has never crashed, locked up, or became otherwise unplayable at any point, nor have I had trouble with frame rate drops, slowdown, or game-killing bugs.

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Please don't talk to me like I don't know what I'm talking about. On the iOS, the nudging hasn't worked right since the start, black hole is currently unplayable due a glitch (though it's being fixed), MM flippers still aren't correct, there's a game killing multiball bug in Circus Voltaire. On 360, I have had problems with the ball getting stuck on black hole, and having to restart. While it's fixed now, Ripley's was literally unplayable on iPad one due to the ball constantly acting wierd. I still love Pinball Arcade despite the bugs, but I know the difference between games with a couple bugs and buggy games. Just becuase you haven't experienced them all doesn't mean they aren't there.

I don't know how saying the game is unpolished is going too far. There are bugs that have been around since the first version of Pinball Arcade that are still there. New bugs have been introduced after updates that often made games unplayable. Some things that should have been addressed before they came out are only coming out in later updates. I'm aware many of the bugs are minor, but there are many bugs, not just a few, and some of them are major.

I'm sorry if I come off as harsh, but I do like the game quite a bit and want to see it do well. The physics are some of the better ones I have seen and I love how there is a new product supporting real tables.

Draftcard said:

I'm both a farsight customer and vp guy and I'd like to show that not all of us are against putting money towards something I have had free for many years. I'm sorry that you guys got into it with each other because the vp guys are really good people that share the same niche hobby as the people here. The goal is common, preserve pinball. I think that if the vp guys knew that success of farsight wouldn't mean the demise of vpmame you would get a ton more support out of them. Honestly there are a ton of people over there with just as much, if not more passion for preserving pinball because it all done for love of it. But if they fear all of that will go away if new liscence holders are going to shut them down they are gonna defend a decade of hard work. Playing nice together will only make pinball stronger.

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I also enjoy using VP/FP and have done so for the better part of the last decade, but if many of the guys in the VP/FP community were as passionate about preserving pinball as they say they are, then they should have no problem supporting FarSight in what they're doing, which is preserving pinball and making it available for generations to come. The problem is exactly what you stated, "But if they fear all of that will go away if new liscence holders are going to shut them down they are gonna defend a decade of hard work." The problem here is that those who chose to put time, money and effort into recreating classic pinball tables license free knew that if sometime in the future a developer (FarSight in this case) decided to step up to the plate and legally acquire all licensing to recreate classic pinball tables, there was a chance that said developer may ask the license holders to put an end to unauthorized recreations of licensed properties that FarSight has put alot of work, effort and money into acquiring themselves. I'm not saying that this is going to happen, but I find it ridiculous for so-called passionate pinball enthusiasts to refuse to support a developer that has done something no other developer up to this point would even attempt to consider doing just because they think they'll lose a decade of hard work they put into VP/FP. VP and FP was great for allowing us all to play tables we thought we would never get to play in a digital format because of what I mentioned before, but the fact is, someone has stepped up to the plate and if those guys are as passionate about pinball as they want us all to believe, then the right thing to do is help support FarSight in their efforts to continue to do what the VP/FP community started over a decade ago.

I wish more of the VP community would help Farsight with the emulation. They already have the creator of VPin Mame helping with emulation, but they could probably use some help from VP authors as well.