Questions Answered - FarSight

I'm totally willing to (re)pay or not (re)pay for upgraded physics. I really believe the FS team does have heart. I've seen the (promo) videos. I'm willing to bet the FS team really does love pinball. That said, current TPA physics are nothing like real pinball. Not even close. VP and Pro Pinball have us beat by miles. Ball physics are the whole game. Flipper physics second. Pretty table graphics and lighting third.

Step up the game in the physics dept., and I'll buy or re-buy any FS offering available.

Ben Logan said:

Ball physics are the whole game. Flipper physics second.

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Nitpick, but this is really the other way around. The flipper physics are the whole game. Ball physics other than the flipper, not so much. You don't really care about the physics details of what the ball is doing in the jet bumpers or in a kickout or even in things like T2's cannon or CV's ringmaster. The flipper physics constitute the vast majority of the player's interaction with and feel for the game, and that's really where the great improvements are to be had. There's so many subtle details about that: flipper acceleration and mass, the difference between the stroke and hold coils, how the ball sinks into the flipper rubber. That's really where virtual pinball is played, more so than the physics of the ball itself.

Yes -- I agree. Hope FS guys listen to you Vikingerik. Lots of great free "consultation" from you in the physics dept. Yours is a more accurate way to view the challenge.

I do, however, care about the way the ball interacts with rubbers on posts, rides and exits ramps, etc. and spins atop the playfield (often in the opposite direction from its trajectory). We need ball physics that can do these things after being set into motion by the flippers you describe.

vikingerik said:

Nitpick, but this is really the other way around. The flipper physics are the whole game. Ball physics other than the flipper, not so much. You don't really care about the physics details of what the ball is doing in the jet bumpers or in a kickout or even in things like T2's cannon or CV's ringmaster. The flipper physics constitute the vast majority of the player's interaction with and feel for the game, and that's really where the great improvements are to be had. There's so many subtle details about that: flipper acceleration and mass, the difference between the stroke and hold coils, how the ball sinks into the flipper rubber. That's really where virtual pinball is played, more so than the physics of the ball itself.

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I'm curious (and have zero expertise here), aren't ball physics what is going to get us away from railroaded kickouts, bricked ramps etc? Or is what you mean by flipper physics also going to have implications for this?

I wasn't really talking about the railroads. I mean that the flippers are where the game is played, that's where the skill of the players is applied. Yes, alleviating the railroads would transfer more skill to flipper moves and nudging as well, but not as much as finely detailed and high resolution flipper physics would.

shutyertrap said:

...and throwing more money at it isn't going to help. Change needs to come from within.

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I'm not sure what that means. I mean if the problem is that they don't have the resources to put a couple guys on the job of going back and fixing/remastering old tables because everybody is focused on producing new tables in order to keep money coming in to...you know...pay people, then why wouldn't more money help?

But you make a good point that producing a big update and charginf for it would create an issue where some would choose not to upgrade and you'd have different versions of the same tables. Perhaps, instead of charging for the update they should fund it through kickstarter. Then those of us who actually want to see it happen could fund it for those who don't want it to happen and we could all enjoy it!

Zevious Zoquis said:

Perhaps, instead of charging for the update they should fund it through kickstarter. Then those of us who actually want to see it happen could fund it for those who don't want it to happen and we could all enjoy it!

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Then I as a customer I would be outraged. WTF?! I would think "Hey, just because people pay more money for tables I already bought, THEY get versions that aren't broken? That would mean that I paid for purposefully broken product that obviously is fixable."

I'll quote myself from a thread made about this subject years ago. (Yes, this is not a new idea.) More of a paraphrase actually.

FarSight: "Hey folks! We know you paid us money for our product, but if you give us even more money, we'll actually fix it for you! How's that sound?!"

Fungi said:

Then I as a customer I would be outraged. WTF?! I would think "Hey, just because people pay more money for tables I already bought, THEY get versions that aren't broken? That would mean that I paid for purposefully broken product that obviously is fixable."

I'll quote myself from a thread made about this subject years ago. (Yes, this is not a new idea.) More of a paraphrase actually.

FarSight: "Hey folks! We know you paid us money for our product, but if you give us even more money, we'll actually fix it for you! How's that sound?!"

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ummm...you seem to have missed the point of a couple things. First, for the umpteenth time, we aren't talking about "fixing problems" here. Making the old tables look nicer and improving the physics are NOT bug fixes. They are things that don't HAVE to happen. Those old tables do work and they are entirely playable. Most of them even still look quite nice. Secondly, my last post suggested a kickstarter for that sort of update...in other words as long as there's enough people like me who would be willing to pay a few dollars to get it, you and others who aren't willing to pay would still benefit from the generosity of chumps like me!

Here's the real quote from FS:

"Hey folks, we'd love to be able to go back and spend a bunch of time (which = $ of course) fixing up the tables from the early seasons to get them up to current standards but unfortunately since this is a niche product and we aren't EA we just don't have the resources to do so unless we can generate resources by some means other than creating and selling new tables so how bout a kickstarter to fund that work?"


...anyway it's really a moot point because I don't think FS is going to do that either. I just wish there was a way to actually get all the tables up to snuff way more quickly than it is likely to happen.

Zevious Zoquis said:

ummm...you seem to have missed the point of a couple things. First, for the umpteenth time, we aren't talking about "fixing problems" here. Making the old tables look nicer and improving the physics are NOT bug fixes. They are things that don't HAVE to happen. Those old tables do work and they are entirely playable. Most of them even still look quite nice. Secondly, my last post suggested a kickstarter for that sort of update...in other words as long as there's enough people like me who would be willing to pay a few dollars to get it, you and others who aren't willing to pay would still benefit from the generosity of chumps like me!

Here's the real quote from FS:

"Hey folks, we'd love to be able to go back and spend a bunch of time (which = $ of course) fixing up the tables from the early seasons to get them up to current standards but unfortunately since this is a niche product and we aren't EA we just don't have the resources to do so unless we can generate resources by some means other than creating and selling new tables so how bout a kickstarter to fund that work?"

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Oh, in that case, yeah, I see what you speak of. Like Bioshock Remastered. Although, rumor has it that PC owners get that update for free. Maybe. We'll see.