...I have a hard time playing Pinball Arcade after Zen Pinball.

Eternal21 · Jun 27, 2018

My biggest issue with Zen Pinball, is that you can cheese through trophies/scores, because you can save game state by simply quitting out of the game. So you can just do that every couple minutes, and if you lose the ball, simply re-load your last save. Not possible with TPA.

Pete · Jun 28, 2018

never could get into zen, i tried but it always seemed so fake and cheesy. and none of the art looks like real pinball art. I expect to see something along the lines of a beautifully inked comic book with sharp black edges and strong shading lines like a painted animation cell, zen is smooth edged and photoshopped painted looking.

shutyertrap · Jun 28, 2018

All I know is this...

Looks a whole hell of a lot better than this...

If you haven't looked at or played a Zen table in a while, you need to see it in FX3 and and play any of the tables since Aliens. They've really come into their own.

cjchand · Jun 28, 2018

shutyertrap said:
If you haven't looked at or played a Zen table in a while, you need to see it in FX3 and and play any of the tables since Aliens. They've really come into their own.

Haven't been a fan of Zen to date, but the Aliens pack for the PS Vita was in the latest PSN flash sale, so I picked it up - partly from hearing you and Jared say Aliens is the beginning of the newer era of Zen tables on your podcast (and here you are saying it again

).

I've only played the first table, but it really does feel more like a proper pin a) partly because of its less wacky layout and b) partly due to the physics feeling less, erm, "Zen-like." I look forward to getting deeper into it and trying the other tables out.

I did a super-quick search for a rules book for the table and came across the ones on Zen's site. Found them a bit lacking. If you know of any other decent source for Zen table rule sets, please do share.

shutyertrap · Jun 28, 2018

cjchand said:
I've only played the first table, but it really does feel more like a proper pin a) partly because of its less wacky layout and b) partly due to the physics feeling less, erm, "Zen-like." I look forward to getting deeper into it and trying the other tables out.

I did a super-quick search for a rules book for the table and came across the ones on Zen's site. Found them a bit lacking. If you know of any other decent source for Zen table rule sets, please do share.

They've gotten much better on the bounce of the ball, making it behave more like you'd expect. I've been playing Mars this week for our weekly tourney, and then I played it in the mobile e-sports app and you can really feel the pronounced difference with how they went back and improved on that table. They even tweaked the rules for in in FX3.

The in-game guides are fairly slight, but there's this guy ShoryukenToTheChin who does way more in depth explanations of how to tackle these tables. Once you get a feel for multiple Zen tables though, the in-game guide winds up being enough.

Jamman39 · Jun 30, 2018

I really thought that after Arcooda Pinball Arcade came out I would be done with FX3 for a good long time, but now that the honeymoon period has come to an end for Arcooda I'm back to playing FX3 a lot.

I have to say the physics in FX3 get a really unfair bad reputation, I don't know if that's a holdover from the early days of FX2 or what?

Neither physics engine is perfect but I think their weaknesses cancel out quite a bit

For FX3 nudging is way too powerful and the kick outs from scoops are like 100% predictable

For PA live catches are way too easy and the balls feel a bit light and floaty in a way that breaks immersion for me

shutyertrap · Jun 30, 2018

I think a lot of the complaints about Zen are from people that haven’t played since FX2, absolutely. Also, it’s the tournaments that completely sucked me in, got me sampling and learning tables again. Although better, I’d still like more bounce out of the rubber in FX3.

DopedToInfinity · Jun 30, 2018

I never really touched Zen due to the tables not being real recreations. I have the 4 new stern tables on SPA on switch, but play PBFX3 the most because the physics are just so much more realistic.

They may have characters dancing all over the tables but those physics just feel so much better.

Jeff Strong · Jul 1, 2018

Do any if the new tables have a more realistic flipper gap? That’s always been my main hitch when it comes to Zen. Made the gameplay a bit too snoozy for me, but I always liked the layouts and graphics.

timxtr · Jul 1, 2018

I prefer the Farsight experience, 3 to 1. Lots of replay value on Zen though. Except how did Zen get away with STEALING MsSplosion Man???? We paid for that, and its gone from my XBone FX2 now!!

shutyertrap · Jul 1, 2018

timxtr said:
I prefer the Farsight experience, 3 to 1. Lots of replay value on Zen though. Except how did Zen get away with STEALING MsSplosion Man???? We paid for that, and its gone from my XBone FX2 now!!

Huh. Still have it on Steam FX2 as well as South Park, and Plants vs Zombies.

shutyertrap · Jul 1, 2018

Jeff Strong said:
Do any if the new tables have a more realistic flipper gap? That’s always been my main hitch when it comes to Zen. Made the gameplay a bit too snoozy for me, but I always liked the layouts and graphics.

I’ve never thought the gap was so much an issue as the fact the tables don’t feed the ball SDTM. I do think the newer tables hem closer to traditional pinball layouts, and if the flipper rubber bounced more I feel you’d no longer complain of the gap.

Jeff Strong · Jul 1, 2018

shutyertrap said:
I’ve never thought the gap was so much an issue as the fact the tables don’t feed the ball SDTM. I do think the newer tables hem closer to traditional pinball layouts, and if the flipper rubber bounced more I feel you’d no longer complain of the gap.

Yeah it just felt like the middle drains that do exist could be saved too easily, but it also definitely didn’t help that you could trap any ball simply by holding up the flipper. I always lean towards the more brutal tables in real life as they tend to get the adrenaline going more, so Zen tended to lull me to sleep in comparison lol. I really wanted to like it though and I did buy several tables back before TPA came along, so I’ve always held out hope for something more realistic and thrilling (It got to the point where TPA didn’t do it for me either since the nudging is so OP), but i’ll have to give Zen another shot. There’s no question that it’s always been insanely polished and shiny, which is why I’m holding out hope that they’ll get the Williams license and combine the polish with realism if they do. *fingers crossed*

Jamman39 · Jul 2, 2018

shutyertrap said:
I’ve never thought the gap was so much an issue as the fact the tables don’t feed the ball SDTM. I do think the newer tables hem closer to traditional pinball layouts, and if the flipper rubber bounced more I feel you’d no longer complain of the gap.

I hope I'm wrong but I feel like Zen have been slowly transitioning back to more fantastical layouts. Both of the Star Wars Episode 7 tables are extremely fantastical, I also feel like Jurassic World and and especially Jurassic Park Mayhem are unrealistic layouts. Adventure Land feels like it started out realistic and then they got carried away with it

shutyertrap · Jul 3, 2018

Jamman39 said:
I hope I'm wrong but I feel like Zen have been slowly transitioning back to more fantastical layouts. Both of the Star Wars Episode 7 tables are extremely fantastical, I also feel like Jurassic World and and especially Jurassic Park Mayhem are unrealistic layouts. Adventure Land feels like it started out realistic and then they got carried away with it

Ignore the animated goings on with the latest tables, and imagine if the things happening could be translated to an actual table. So take Jurassic World for instance; the dino eating the suspended ball could easily be done on a real table ala THING, and the raptors popping up would be like the trolls in MM. As for the rampaging dino you have to hit, okay that would be a tough one and would instead have to be done with lit targets. Otherwise, it's a fairly traditional layout. So that's what I try to do, imagine what an actual table toy would look like instead.

As a fun exercise, take real tables and imagine what they'd look like with digital enhancements. There's a lot on Twilight Zone that wouldn't seem possible if it were introduced as a digital table first.

Heretic · Jul 3, 2018

shutyertrap said:
Ignore the animated goings on with the latest tables, and imagine if the things happening could be translated to an actual table. So take Jurassic World for instance; the dino eating the suspended ball could easily be done on a real table ala THING, and the raptors popping up would be like the trolls in MM. As for the rampaging dino you have to hit, okay that would be a tough one and would instead have to be done with lit targets. Otherwise, it's a fairly traditional layout. So that's what I try to do, imagine what an actual table toy would look like instead.

As a fun exercise, take real tables and imagine what they'd look like with digital enhancements. There's a lot on Twilight Zone that wouldn't seem possible if it were introduced as a digital table first.

I lost the plot when i first played the power

Jeff Strong · Jul 3, 2018

I remember there used to be a list somewhere (maybe on the official zen forum?) that had all the original Zen tables and the real pins that they borrowed their layouts from. I think they’ve gotten much more creative with their designs since then from what what I’ve seen, and of course the extra bells and whistles that SYT mentioned bring everything to a whole new level.

Jamman39 · Jul 3, 2018

shutyertrap said:
Ignore the animated goings on with the latest tables, and imagine if the things happening could be translated to an actual table. So take Jurassic World for instance; the dino eating the suspended ball could easily be done on a real table ala THING, and the raptors popping up would be like the trolls in MM. As for the rampaging dino you have to hit, okay that would be a tough one and would instead have to be done with lit targets. Otherwise, it's a fairly traditional layout. So that's what I try to do, imagine what an actual table toy would look like instead.

As a fun exercise, take real tables and imagine what they'd look like with digital enhancements. There's a lot on Twilight Zone that wouldn't seem possible if it were introduced as a digital table first.

I am talking about the layouts, I've never been one to complain about the superficial elements of a Zen table.

Star Wars the Last Jedi has a layout that includes 7 flippers and 3 different upper playfield areas, and most importantly has no center playfield at all just a silly impossible mechanism in its place.

I haven't played much of Ahch-To Island because I think that Playfield is even worse. I can't remember how many flippers there are but it's an obscene amount, and each flipper seems to be designed to reach only one or two other areas, it really doesn't even feel like playing pinball in my (limited) experience.

To your point Jurassic World and Adventure Land do skew a little bit closer towards having a realistic layout but each has several strange shots and ball paths and neither feel quite as much like a real pin as Aliens, Jurassic Park, Skyrim, Son of Zeus and the other great stuff Zen had put out recently

steven120566 · Jul 3, 2018

Jamman39 said:
I am talking about the layouts, I've never been one to complain about the superficial elements of a Zen table.

Star Wars the Last Jedi has a layout that includes 7 flippers and 3 different upper playfield areas, and most importantly has no center playfield at all just a silly impossible mechanism in its place.

I haven't played much of Ahch-To Island because I think that Playfield is even worse. I can't remember how many flippers there are but it's an obscene amount, and each flipper seems to be designed to reach only one or two other areas, it really doesn't even feel like playing pinball in my (limited) experience.

To your point Jurassic World and Adventure Land do skew a little bit closer towards having a realistic layout but each has several strange shots and ball paths and neither feel quite as much like a real pin as Aliens, Jurassic Park, Skyrim, Son of Zeus and the other great stuff Zen had put out recently

This discussion is awesome. I know I am all pie in the sky, but after years of both, I find it difficult to find problems in either game to the point of being able to pick a preference. I am to the point where I have given up on "Which game should I play today?" I have become, forced by default, to literally alternate which game to play every time I sit down to play. Today it's gonna be Zen (If I can find time today), tomorrow TPA, etc

But when firing up the game, It then takes me too much time deciding on a table to play (I gotta try three games on a table before I pick a second, unless I break my score or something). Too much good pinball to play, whether real or fantastic.

If it's Zen, I frequent the unlicensed original stuff most. The classics. If it's TPA, I seem to play the solid states, I believe they are called, most, then RBION and Voltaire lol.

shutyertrap · Jul 3, 2018

If you are wondering what to play in FX3, each week I have a tournament going with different play rules. Just search ‘shutyertrap’ in the tourney tab and join in. There’s even a thread about it here under the Tournaments forum.

...I have a hard time playing Pinball Arcade after Zen Pinball.

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