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Thread: Indiana Jones/Lethal Weapon 3/Space Invaders/Golden Arrow

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    Indiana Jones/Lethal Weapon 3/Space Invaders/Golden Arrow

    Hi community, I am sure there are very good reasons, maybe answered in a different thread... but what happens with this 4 pinball machines that were so famous in SoouthAmerica and none of them has been created in The Pinball Arcade DLC's? Was it that those machines were not so famous in NorthAmerica? I am from Chile and those machines really rock! (with Mediaval Madness and others).

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    Senior Member Russell Bergman's Avatar
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    There are 3 reasons.
    1. Licensing
    2. Licensing
    3. Licensing

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    Senior Member Citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Bergman View Post
    There are 3 reasons.
    1. Licensing
    2. Licensing
    3. Licensing
    Except for Golden Arrow.

    Golden Arrow is just an uncommon machine that isn't all that popular here. Not to mention it's an EM.

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    Senior Pigeon Kolchak357's Avatar
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    Golden Arrow is a pretty good EM. I enjoy it, but we don’t get many EM pins.
    Like the folks said, the other three are licensing issues.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Except for Golden Arrow.

    Golden Arrow is just an uncommon machine that isn't all that popular here. Not to mention it's an EM.
    That's why the post says 3 reasons and not 4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Bergman View Post
    There are 3 reasons.
    1. Licensing
    2. Licensing
    3. Licensing
    But I saw there is "Last Action Hero" and "Terminator 2", why licensing is more difficult with the other ones? I would really like to know more about it please

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    Administrator Gord Lacey's Avatar
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    Well, Terminator 2 had to have a kickstarter campaign behind it in order to raise the money to license the table. The costs to license that was $65,000. It's impossible to know how much the licensing costs for the tables you mentioned would be.

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    Senior Member Citizen's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, does anyone know if FarSight had to license T2 from Warner or from the Ellisons?
    It was added to TPA the same year it was sold. I'm guessing Warner.

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    Senior Pigeon Kolchak357's Avatar
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    Terminator 2 as well as some other licensed pins required a kickstarter campaign in order to help pay for the licensing costs. Some cheaper licenses Farsight has been able to acquire at a cost that allowed them to produce the table and sell it at the normal cost. Some of these pins include Starship Troopers, Ripley’s, Bram Stokers Drac, and the Elvira pins.
    Some licenses cost more than others depending on movie studios, actors likenesses, music, etc. Only Farsight can answer your question in great detail.

    I’m sure if Farsight could get the rights to the Indiana Jones pin as a reasonable price, they would do so. They’d be crazy not to.
    Last edited by Kolchak357; 02-28-2018 at 02:31 PM.

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    Senior Member EldarOfSuburbia's Avatar
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    Space Invaders isn't just licensing; there's was a whole legal mess around H R Giger's artwork and design for Alien that the table's artwork blatantly ripped off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EldarOfSuburbia View Post
    Space Invaders isn't just licensing; there's was a whole legal mess around H R Giger's artwork and design for Alien that the table's artwork blatantly ripped off.

    Seriously man? Does that mean that Space Invaders will never be released again??? :'(

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    Senior Member Blkthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oscargarin@gmail.com View Post
    Seriously man? Does that mean that Space Invaders will never be released again??? :'(
    It means that if Farsight did get the table they would probably have to alter the way the alien looks in the backglass and any other places if it's on the playfield similar to what they did to World Cup Soccer and Addam's Family with Fester.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blkthorne View Post
    It means that if Farsight did get the table they would probably have to alter the way the alien looks in the backglass and any other places if it's on the playfield similar to what they did to World Cup Soccer and Addam's Family with Fester.
    Oohh that's sad because it would not be the same ...but at least it would be 'something' to play
    Well thanks a lot, you have answered all my questions, you can now close this thread

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Out of curiosity, does anyone know if FarSight had to license T2 from Warner or from the Ellisons?
    It was added to TPA the same year it was sold. I'm guessing Warner.
    That's a good question. I just know they made the deal just after another company had licensed T2 for a different video game, and it was done kinda on the sly as first it had to be proven it wouldn't be a competing product, and second there should have been a 'favored nation' status to cost of the license, but FarSight got it for significantly less than the other company. Whoops on the part of the license holder. This snafu led to FarSight promising to promote the other game whenever it came out to appease the other company. Looks like that turned into nothing but vapor ware. A huge chunk of the licensing was entirely for the use of Ah-nold and voice/likeness. We all speculated that they didn't just pay him for this table, but also for Last Action Hero. You'll remember that FS struck a deal with Columbia/Sony to buy a bulk license package that resulted in LAH, Dracula, Starship Troopers, and presumably that Ghostbusters abomination of a re-skin.

    Anybody remember the 'whoops' with ST:TNG? Paramount owns the movie rights, but CBS owns the TV rights. So FarSight makes the deal with CBS, goes forward, only to then have to prove that what they are doing is not based on any of the movies! More than that, had to prove that this was not a new license creation, but based on the license that Williams had secured, which of course no one was familiar with anymore. CBS also owns Twilight Zone, which I believe had similar headaches. FarSight went through a lot of lawyer fees with those first few kickstarters, not realizing how many fingers are often in the pie when it comes to Hollywood properties. Any license gotten that didn't require a kickstarter shows how much better they got at navigating these minefields.
    I'm just sayin'

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    T2 was licensed JUST before the license was sold. There was a bit of a hurry to get the Kickstarter done before the sale of the license went through in order to actually secure the license.

    As for STTNG, CBS owns Viacom (who owns Paramount), so it's really all the same company. CBS requires $40K just to sit at the licensing table - this is just to sit down for the first time, not a guarantee - CBS could kick you after 5 minutes and there goes your money. And yes, it got confusing, mostly because it's an old property and they have to worry about licensing on their current property (i.e., the current Trek) to make sure they don't sell it twice, three times or more. As far as they were considered, the STTNG pin license was done and gone - after all, Williams didn't make the machine for decades.

    For the other licenses, they're likely just cheap licenses - the company that owns the property sees it as another stream of revenue and gladly signs to get free money. Modern licenses are also easier to obtain as the various aspects of the license are often consolidated. Think of it this way - a modern contract for acting will include the use of it in the intended product in basically any format now - if it was a voice for a toy, the contract will include a digital rendition sold for digital versions of said toy. As you go older, these sort of terms weren't in the contracts, so licensing the property meant you had to also talk with the original actors. Before the 80s, licensing contracts often didn't include home video releases, and before the late 90s, often only were for video tape releases, but not DVD. Similarly, no one thought pinballs would go digital, so the rights of the artwork and likenesses and such wouldn't include digital distribution (which is why flyers aren't online by their manufacturers except recently - the companies simply don't have a right to reproduce the artwork digitally).

    Newer contracts simplify it down to basically "you do the work, we can use it as we see fit in exchange for payment". Naturally, that's a lot easier to license since you talk with the owner, pay the money, get everything.

    The bigger the franchise, the older the franchise, the hairier the licensing. Big franchises with star actors like Indiana Jones will often have narrower rights because when you're Harrison Ford, you don't sign away your rights - your agents and lawyers will ensure your likeness is only used for the movie, and if they make a video game, those agents and lawyers will make a deal with the game company individually.

    And some people's lawyers just say no (see Christopher Lloyd).

    I don't think Farsight is any better at negotiating, they are simply more experienced. Going to get a big license will still require a kickstarter simply because the cash has to be on the table just to sign the deal. It's just that they haven't done any big licenses lately. Licenses for obscure pins will likely not work out - if people don't know it, they won't contribute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    Any license gotten that didn't require a kickstarter shows how much better they got at navigating these minefields.
    Some of them are just probably smaller and require less hassle.

    Many of the recent licenses are not buried in the largest of scale entertainment muck, and I'm sure were easier to negotiate (probably a *LOT* less lawyer / agent muck). Examples would Frank Thomas, Indianapolis 500 and the voices of the pin (Paul Page, Bobby Unser, and Tom Carnegie), Rescue 911, No Fear, Red and Ted's Road Show (for Carlene Carter), and Judge Dredd (since it's based on the comic). These aren't unknown players, but aren't super-huge like say FIFA is or Indiana Jones would be. Even on these pins sometimes alterations had to be made (some names were removed from No Fear for instance.)

    The "biggest name" non-Kickstarter pin they've done recently is Ghostbusters -- my guess is that Stern includes digital reproduction in their terms, so it probably wasn't a big deal to get. I'm wondering if the negotiations they did with T2 helped pave the way for Last Action Hero.
    Last edited by soundwave106; 03-03-2018 at 09:19 AM.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Even though CBS and Paramount are technically the same company, they still have separate libraries. It's why getting a new Star Trek on TV was a challenge, as Paramount didn't want competition to the movies. But yeah, what Worf said. All the actors in Star Wars signed away their likenesses in that first contract, and then Lucasfilm showed the world how to merchandise! I'm sure Harrison took that into consideration when signing on to Indiana Jones. Most contracts you see today have the 'use of likeness in perpetuity' thing with a 'for current and future media' attachment.

    I cringe when watching a movie today that has 4 or 5 different production companies attached before the title, just thinking what a licensing quagmire they are creating years down the road.
    I'm just sayin'

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundwave106 View Post
    Some of them are just probably smaller and require less hassle.

    Many of the recent licenses are not buried in the largest of scale entertainment muck, and I'm sure were easier to negotiate. Examples would Frank Thomas, Indianapolis 500 and the voices of the pin (Paul Page, Bobby Unser, and Tom Carnegie), Rescue 911, No Fear, Red and Ted's Road Show (for Carlene Carter), and Judge Dredd (since it's based on the comic). These aren't unknown players, but aren't super-huge like say FIFA is or Indiana Jones would be. Even on these pins sometimes alterations had to be made (some names were removed from No Fear for instance.)

    The "biggest name" non-Kickstarter pin they've done recently is Ghostbusters -- my guess is that Stern includes digital reproduction in their terms, so it probably wasn't a big deal to get. I'm wondering if the negotiations they did with T2 helped pave the way for Last Action Hero.
    Stern definitely has the digital reproduction terms included in new licenses they acquire. The mystery is how far back they started doing it, most agreeing that it'd be right around Metallica, but not sooner. When they re-up to do a vault edition, those terms are now included.
    I'm just sayin'

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    Senior Member WesReviews's Avatar
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    A Warner Bros. deal could make tables like Freddy, Lethal Weapon 3, Dirty Harry, and Lord of the Rings happen.

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    Senior Member Citizen's Avatar
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    LotR would also require a license from Middle-Earth Enterprises.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    FarSight has said they made inquiries with Warner Bros about multiple licenses, both block purchase and individual, but they were asking way over what other studios wanted.

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    Senior Pigeon Kolchak357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    FarSight has said they made inquiries with Warner Bros about multiple licenses, both block purchase and individual, but they were asking way over what other studios wanted.
    Well, that’s a bummer. Come on Warner Bros, play ball!

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    Senior Member WesReviews's Avatar
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    They should try again.

    Warner Bros. only recently started licensing some of their back catalog titles for Blu-ray releases to The Criterion Collection and Shout Factory.

    Perhaps their price has come down a bit?

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    Member Neko20's Avatar
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    I love how Warner loves to whore out Freddy but they can't be bothered to make more movies. Jason too. Anyway, I honestly wouldn't be all that upset with kickstarter to get licensed tables on here. How about everyone else? I personally would shell out for 'Jurassic Park' or 'Lost World'
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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Well, slasher movies haven’t been a thing for many years now. Jason movies were cranked out because they were cheap to make. THAT trend in horror still exists. And is Freddy even remotely scary anymore? You’d have to do a complete reboot, change the origin, maybe even certain aspects of the whole dream thing. It’s a 30 yr old property that’s had every last nickel bled from it, and young (prime audience) couldn’t care less about Freddy or Jason.

    As for Kickstarter, no. Zen gets license after license, including Jurassic Park and doesn’t ask a penny extra for it. FarSight just needs to find a way too.

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