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  Click here to go to the first FarSight post in this thread.   Thread: Arcooda Cab Views 2 to 4 play in Slow Motion. View 1 fine - Build 1.70.18 (5th June)

  1. #126
    Senior Member GAH1068's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBalls View Post
    I am 64-bit too - there is only one folder for Steam - ie: the one you mentioned.
    The steam folder is in x86 not x64. Sorry, I had a brain cramp.

  2. #127
    Senior Member SilverBalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gust334 View Post
    I believe slow cameras are due to page faults from TPA.

    My Windows 10 system saturates at ~2600 page faults per second.

    Each single page fault from TPA triggers about 15 antivirus page faults.

    Page faults counts can be observed in the Details tab of Windows task manager.

    There are approximately zero page faults on the fast camera in Cabinet mode.
    There are approximately zero page faults with any camera in non-Cabinet mode.
    Nice find! I think you found the needle in the haystack. I just watched the Page Fault Delta in the task manager and it generates about 32k per second on my PC. Switch to the fast view and it's mostly zero. I just read page faults result in more disk activity, also the overhead of them.occurring plus the impact to the antivirus must explain the perf hit. If this is right Farsight owe you free tables for life I would say .

  3. #128
    Senior Member seattlemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gust334 View Post
    I believe slow cameras are due to page faults from TPA.

    My Windows 10 system saturates at ~2600 page faults per second.

    Each single page fault from TPA triggers about 15 antivirus page faults.

    Page faults counts can be observed in the Details tab of Windows task manager.

    There are approximately zero page faults on the fast camera in Cabinet mode.
    There are approximately zero page faults with any camera in non-Cabinet mode.
    First of all I want to thank gues334 for mentioning Page Faults being able to be observed in the Windows Task Manager! I never knew that. (Turns out "Page Faults" and "Page Faults Deltas" are extra columns that can be added through the view menu item of Processes tab.) Once I added Page Faults and Page Faults Delta, I had (my Windows 7) Task manager open on one monitor, while I tested TPA Cabinet Beta on the other. I had it sorted by the Page Faults Delta (by clicking on that column's header). Then I started testing TPA and switching between Views 1 - 4. Sure enough, I had 0 page faults on view 4. Views 1, 2, and 3, threw tons of Page Faults, with both that column and Page Faults Delta increasing dramatically. As soon as I switched back to View 4, Page Faults Delta would drop back to 0, and Page Faults would stop increasing. Note, however, I did not notice any similar thing in Task Manager for Avast, and Malwarebytes.

  4. #129
    Senior Member SilverBalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattlemark View Post
    First of all I want to thank gues334 for mentioning Page Faults being able to be observed in the Windows Task Manager! I never knew that. (Turns out "Page Faults" and "Page Faults Deltas" are extra columns that can be added through the view menu item of Processes tab.) Once I added Page Faults and Page Faults Delta, I had (my Windows 7) Task manager open on one monitor, while I tested TPA Cabinet Beta on the other. I had it sorted by the Page Faults Delta (by clicking on that column's header). Then I started testing TPA and switching between Views 1 - 4. Sure enough, I had 0 page faults on view 4. Views 1, 2, and 3, threw tons of Page Faults, with both that column and Page Faults Delta increasing dramatically. As soon as I switched back to View 4, Page Faults Delta would drop back to 0, and Page Faults would stop increasing. Note, however, I did not notice any similar thing in Task Manager for Avast, and Malwarebytes.
    Interestingly the PF Delta column is the number of faults that are generated since the last update in the Task Manager. I think the default 'Normal' update interval is 1 second so for me it produced 35,000 pers second which is insane. Avast also didn't show faults for me in the task manager however the side affects might vary from setup to setup. It would be good to hear from Farsight today, but I just realised there is a holiday in the US today.

  5. #130
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    Here in the USA we celebrate winning our independence from the domination of England on this day.
    I have a friend outside London who says they hoist a pint to "Good Riddance" on this day.

    Back on topic... page faults occur in any software and are not necessarily evil things. Every software has circumstances where a page might not be in the present working set. However, so many faults generated per second, continuously for hours, is a strong indicator of something wrong in memory management.

    I haven't been able to find any concrete data on live antivirus innards, but I speculate TPA is shot-gunning memory accesses all over the virtual memory space, and every time one causes a new page to be mapped, the antivirus sees the new address range and decides it needs to scan the new page and some number above and below it... and since those pages are not yet mapped, they generate their own faults. This speculation could explain why those people using antivirus that has a live scanning process see significantly more degraded performance than those without live scanning.

  6. #131
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    I've been having a rough time with this too - doesn't matter what I change this game is painfully sluggish during play.

  7. #132
    Senior Member seattlemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattlemark View Post
    First of all I want to thank gues334 for mentioning Page Faults being able to be observed in the Windows Task Manager! I never knew that. (Turns out "Page Faults" and "Page Faults Deltas" are extra columns that can be added through the view menu item of Processes tab.) Once I added Page Faults and Page Faults Delta, I had (my Windows 7) Task manager open on one monitor, while I tested TPA Cabinet Beta on the other. I had it sorted by the Page Faults Delta (by clicking on that column's header). Then I started testing TPA and switching between Views 1 - 4. Sure enough, I had 0 page faults on view 4. Views 1, 2, and 3, threw tons of Page Faults, with both that column and Page Faults Delta increasing dramatically. As soon as I switched back to View 4, Page Faults Delta would drop back to 0, and Page Faults would stop increasing. Note, however, I did not notice any similar thing in Task Manager for Avast, and Malwarebytes.
    Correction to what I had mistyped earlier. Actually, "Page Faults" and "Page Faults Deltas" are extra columns that can be added through the view menu item of the Details tab.

  8. #133
    Senior Member seattlemark's Avatar
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    I now have a new gaming PC (that I am going to run wires to the video pinball cabinet I will be building). With the new PC I am able to get 60 fps in all 4 views. I am running on it with the non-beta. The new PC is currently using the preinstalled McAffee Live Safe for anti-virus. With this new PC, I just ran the same test I had described in my earlier post. Result- Even though I am getting 60 fps in all four views on this particular PC, I still see the huge numbers of Page Faults on the PinballArcadeCabinet process in view 1, 2, and 3. As with my old PC, I don't notice any Page Faults in PinballArcadeCabinet with View 4. So I am wondering if these same Page Fault results are reproducible on any PC that isn't seeing the slowdown, including the ones FarSight/Arcooda are testing on.

    I will be using the new PC for normal playing of Pinball Arcade going forward, but I still wanted to run this test on it to help in the debugging for those that have the Slowdown. Plus I can go back to my old PC for testing as well.

    Added Note: My new PC is running Windows 10 64-bit with 16 GB of RAM, and my old PC is running Windows 7 64-bit with 6 GB of RAM.
    Last edited by seattlemark; 07-07-2018 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Put in the "Added Note"

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    Quote Originally Posted by seattlemark View Post
    I now have a new gaming PC (that I am going to run wires to the video pinball cabinet I will be building). With the new PC I am able to get 60 fps in all 4 views. I am running on it with the non-beta. The new PC is currently using the preinstalled McAffee Live Safe for anti-virus. With this new PC, I just ran the same test I had described in my earlier post. Result- Even though I am getting 60 fps in all four views on this particular PC, I still see the huge numbers of Page Faults on the PinballArcadeCabinet process in view 1, 2, and 3. As with my old PC, I don't notice any Page Faults in PinballArcadeCabinet with View 4. So I am wondering if these same Page Fault results are reproducible on any PC that isn't seeing the slowdown, including the ones FarSight/Arcooda are testing on.

    I will be using the new PC for normal playing of Pinball Arcade going forward, but I still wanted to run this test on it to help in the debugging for those that have the Slowdown. Plus I can go back to my old PC for testing as well.
    SeattleMark - i'm going to use your idea and run this on one of my more powerful machines and see if it produces the same slowness for me in all views.

  10. #135
    Senior Member SilverBalls's Avatar
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    I reckon we will hear from Farsight on this soon, will probably take them a bit of time to see what's going on and do a fix. Pretty ineffecient how it is atm, so there is hope that improving the mem management will do the trick.

    I am away from I'm home so cannot try, but did anyone disable the virtual memory page file to see if the views improve in speed and the FPS hits 60?

  11. #136
    Senior Member seattlemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyez88 View Post
    SeattleMark - i'm going to use your idea and run this on one of my more powerful machines and see if it produces the same slowness for me in all views.
    Hi hawkeyez88. Sounds like I may not have been completely clear. On my new gaming PC , when I reran the test, I did not have slowdowns (and hopefully that will be the same for you when you retest on your more powerful machine). But on my new gaming PC, I did again see the Page Faults on the PinballArcadeCabinet process when observed in Task Manager when I reran the following test, which I am extracting from my original post about my original test on my old PC (with some adjustments to that earlier post) :

    "Page Faults" and "Page Faults Delta" are extra columns that can be added through the view menu item of the Details tab. Once I added Page Faults and Page Faults Delta, I had Task manager open on one monitor, while I tested TPA Cabinet on the other. I had it sorted by the Page Faults Delta (by clicking on that column's header). Then I started testing TPA and switching between Views 1 - 4. Sure enough, I observed in Task Manager 0 page faults on view 4. Views 1, 2, and 3, threw tons of Page Faults on the PinballArcadeCabinet process, with both that column and Page Faults Delta increasing dramatically. As soon as I switched back to View 4, Page Faults Delta would drop back to 0 for the PinballArcadeCabinet process, and Page Faults would stop increasing.
    Last edited by seattlemark; 07-06-2018 at 08:06 PM. Reason: Added the "(and hopefully that will be the same for you)"

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    Not a peep from Farsight since Monday. Maybe they took the week off for the holiday. Hope they're rested and ready to continue debug next week.

    I would expect disabling the virtual page file will do nothing to affect soft page faults.

    (When one has sufficient physical RAM, there is no reason to page anything out to a page file.)

  13. #138
    Senior Member SilverBalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gust334 View Post
    Not a peep from Farsight since Monday. Maybe they took the week off for the holiday. Hope they're rested and ready to continue debug next week.

    I would expect disabling the virtual page file will do nothing to affect soft page faults.

    (When one has sufficient physical RAM, there is no reason to page anything out to a page file.)
    Maybe they are still recovering from the 4th July celebrations.... after hoisting a few pints (I guess the 'other side' also do it ).

    Did you find a way to determine the number of soft vs hard page faults out of interest or can we not get that level of breakdown? I read that sometimes when a program needs a large chunk of memory it can obviously be fragmented all over the shop, and memory locations can get repeatedly obtained/released, etc., so to help reduce the overhead and risk of a page faults, a program can request/reserve a chunk of memory upfront (a bucket) which it then holds onto. If it turns out that the page faults that are responsible for the slowness I wonder if the slow views could do something like this. It's all speculation / guesswork but you never know it may give Farsight some ideas or take them down another line of thought
    Last edited by SilverBalls; 07-07-2018 at 01:11 AM.

  14. #139
    Senior Member seattlemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattlemark View Post
    Hi hawkeyez88. Sounds like I may not have been completely clear. On my new gaming PC , when I reran the test, I did not have slowdowns (and hopefully that will be the same for you when you retest on your more powerful machine). But on my new gaming PC, I did again see the Page Faults on the PinballArcadeCabinet process when observed in Task Manager when I reran the following test, which I am extracting from my original post about my original test on my old PC (with some adjustments to that earlier post) :

    "Page Faults" and "Page Faults Delta" are extra columns that can be added through the view menu item of the Details tab. Once I added Page Faults and Page Faults Delta, I had Task manager open on one monitor, while I tested TPA Cabinet on the other. I had it sorted by the Page Faults Delta (by clicking on that column's header). Then I started testing TPA and switching between Views 1 - 4. Sure enough, I observed in Task Manager 0 page faults on view 4. Views 1, 2, and 3, threw tons of Page Faults on the PinballArcadeCabinet process, with both that column and Page Faults Delta increasing dramatically. As soon as I switched back to View 4, Page Faults Delta would drop back to 0 for the PinballArcadeCabinet process, and Page Faults would stop increasing.
    Turns out that Page Faults and Page Faults Delta are columns that can be added to Task Manager's Processes tab on a Windows 7 PC, and instead it's the Details tab of a Windows 10 PC.
    Last edited by seattlemark; 07-07-2018 at 02:18 AM.

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    Senior Member seattlemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBalls View Post
    I reckon we will hear from Farsight on this soon, will probably take them a bit of time to see what's going on and do a fix. Pretty ineffecient how it is atm, so there is hope that improving the mem management will do the trick.

    I am away from I'm home so cannot try, but did anyone disable the virtual memory page file to see if the views improve in speed and the FPS hits 60?

    I ran the test Silverballs was wondering about. Using information in https://www.howtogeek.com/126430/htg...ou-disable-it/ , I disabled the page file on my old Windows 7 PC (which has 6GB of installed RAM). After the required reboot, I started up TPA on one monitor and Task Manager on the other. Results were the same as before on this computer:

    a) Slowdowns on views 1,2,3.
    b) Task Manager showing large increasing number in Page Faults Delta for PinballArcadeCabinet process in views 1-3, with Page Faults also increasing the entire time in those three views.
    c) Full 60fps on view 4.
    d) For PinballArcadeCabinet process in Task Manager, Page Faults Delta drops down to zero in View 4 and Page Faults stops increasing.

  16. #141
    Senior Member SilverBalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seattlemark View Post
    I ran the test Silverballs was wondering about. Using information in https://www.howtogeek.com/126430/htg...ou-disable-it/ , I disabled the page file on my old Windows 7 PC (which has 6GB of installed RAM). After the required reboot, I started up TPA on one monitor and Task Manager on the other. Results were the same as before on this computer:

    a) Slowdowns on views 1,2,3.
    b) Task Manager showing large increasing number in Page Faults Delta for PinballArcadeCabinet process in views 1-3, with Page Faults also increasing the entire time in those three views.
    c) Full 60fps on view 4.
    d) For PinballArcadeCabinet process in Task Manager, Page Faults Delta drops down to zero in View 4 and Page Faults stops increasing.
    Great that you did a test - So from that they are most likely to be soft page faults then. Looking forward to hear from Farsight on it.

    Incidentally my PC is Windows 7 64-bit with 8GB RAM.

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    Windows 10 Resource Monitor tracks and records hard page faults.
    Zero hard page faults on any Cabinet v1.70.27 camera.
    The faults we see are soft page faults.

  18. #143
    Senior Member seattlemark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gust334 View Post
    Windows 10 Resource Monitor tracks and records hard page faults.
    Zero hard page faults on any Cabinet v1.70.27 camera.
    The faults we see are soft page faults.
    I am also seeing 0 Hard Faults. For me I checked on the Windows 7 (64-bit) Resource Monitor on my old PC in views 1-3, at the same time the Task Manager Page Faults and Page Faults Delta were very high for the PinballArcadeCabinet.exe process during those same views.
    Last edited by seattlemark; 07-07-2018 at 12:17 PM. Reason: Added "(64-bit)"

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    Radio silence from Farsight for a week now.

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    Senior Member Jamman39's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gust334 View Post
    Radio silence from Farsight for a week now.
    Yeah this is frustrating. The game was working pretty well for me in its previous version, the latest update has made it unplayable and Farsight are awfully quiet.

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    I guess they’re exhausted from all the work required for the 06/30 deadline. Think of it:They had to ensure that the ability to purchase Bally/Williams tables was removed across all platforms while simultaneously ensuring that the tables purchased prior to the deadline were still accessible to the owners. That had to have been a tremendous undertaking.

    I’m sure they’ll get back to work on fixing the cabinet mode shortly. According to the Arcooda site they have a 07/31 deadline for completing the generic cabinet software “offline” package.

    I’m still hoping for the following:
    * Brighter DMD for “Creature From the Black Lagoon”. (Two monitor mode.) The current provided DMD is too dark to read.
    * ”Gorgar” scoring in the backglass.
    * Restoration of some of the backglass animations, like “Xenon”. This was promised following the fixing of the speed issues some people were having with the 3D views. It appears that the information provided in this thread should be sufficient for FarSight to fix the speed issue.
    * Restoration of the “pseudo” shaker motor effect on tables like “Earthshaker” and “Red and Ted’s Roadshow”. This was probably removed due to true shaker motor support for the Arcooda cabinets; but the effect needs to be restored for the generic cabinet version.

    Finally, some of us are having issues launching the DX11 version of TPA. For some reason it now wants to launch in the monitor defined for the backglass in the cabinet mode configuration.

    I’m sure FarSight will have all of these issues resolved by the end of the month and we can then start anticipating some new Stern tables!
    Last edited by vfpcoder; 07-10-2018 at 04:07 PM.

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    Senior Member SilverBalls's Avatar
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    Would be good to at least hear them publicly acknowledge gust334's page fault finding. Many of us have spent many hours trying things out and reporting findings when we have better things to do, trying to basically get something working that we have paid for, but when you don't hear anything back it's a bit disheartening.

    Even if the reason is "our prgammer is on holiday so we can't look at it now" I don't mind that, but hearing bugger all slightly cheeses me off.

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    I agree this is probably post June 30th workload cool down but yeah, Farsight's communication skills have never been on point so it's more of the same here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The loafer View Post
    I agree this is probably post June 30th workload cool down but yeah, Farsight's communication skills have never been on point so it's more of the same here.
    Even on my more powerful machine I'm still seeing the same behavior we've been discussing. I've only been using windows 10 machines though. I'm crossing my fingers with the rest of you in hopes that we hear something. I came across something on their site the other day that said even after this transition they would be working on adding other tables to the software, so i really do hope that's the case.

  25.   Click here to go to the next FarSight post in this thread.   #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by vfpcoder View Post
    I guess they’re exhausted from all the work required for the 06/30 deadline. Think of it:They had to ensure that the ability to purchase Bally/Williams tables was removed across all platforms while simultaneously ensuring that the tables purchased prior to the deadline were still accessible to the owners. That had to have been a tremendous undertaking.

    I’m sure they’ll get back to work on fixing the cabinet mode shortly. According to the Arcooda site they have a 07/31 deadline for completing the generic cabinet software “offline” package.

    I’m still hoping for the following:
    * Brighter DMD for “Creature From the Black Lagoon”. (Two monitor mode.) The current provided DMD is too dark to read.
    * ”Gorgar” scoring in the backglass.
    * Restoration of some of the backglass animations, like “Xenon”. This was promised following the fixing of the speed issues some people were having with the 3D views. It appears that the information provided in this thread should be sufficient for FarSight to fix the speed issue.
    * Restoration of the “pseudo” shaker motor effect on tables like “Earthshaker” and “Red and Ted’s Roadshow”. This was probably removed due to true shaker motor support for the Arcooda cabinets; but the effect needs to be restored for the generic cabinet version.

    Finally, some of us are having issues launching the DX11 version of TPA. For some reason it now wants to launch in the monitor defined for the backglass in the cabinet mode configuration.

    I’m sure FarSight will have all of these issues resolved by the end of the month and we can then start anticipating some new Stern tables!
    It has been a busy few weeks with the Bally/Williams table removal but we have worked on the cabinet mode when we had time. We are going to put out another update to track down issues with crashing and cabinet keys not saving. Most of the things your hoping for are features we would like to see in the cabinet version as well but I do not expect them to be in anytime soon. Also Arcooda currently doesn't have any Stern tables.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBalls View Post
    Would be good to at least hear them publicly acknowledge gust334's page fault finding. Many of us have spent many hours trying things out and reporting findings when we have better things to do, trying to basically get something working that we have paid for, but when you don't hear anything back it's a bit disheartening.

    Even if the reason is "our prgammer is on holiday so we can't look at it now" I don't mind that, but hearing bugger all slightly cheeses me off.
    Both comments kind of fall hand in hand. The programmer that we need to look into the page faults is on holiday for another week.

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