Zen Pinball FX3 Williams Pinball Volume One

SilverBalls said:

Some interesting observations on the Beta 4 build on Spacies Arcade:

Initially I was contented with the beta 4 version, however after seeing the real Fish Tales footage here, I also feel some future tweaking is needed in Zen (as raised by Greg). Not sure what others think?

I have to say again these videos are great, and am sure they are helping Zen immensely.

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Silverballs, not replying to you directly (I know where you're coming from). Just using your post as a link to Spacies vid...

Folks, I think we need to be cautious here that we are not expecting too much. imo, Zen's new Williams physics are currently the best I've seen in a digital format and it's great fun to play.

I'm all for striving for realism but we also need to remember that even the best simulation is never going to be a match for experiencing the real thing. I'd never expect a driving sim to capture every nuance of driving a real car, out in the real world and I wouldn't expect playing a digital recreation of Fish Tales to be any different.

Yes, let's help Zen strive to make it as good as they can but let's keep some perspective here. It's never going to match the real experience but it's still damn fun to play!

One thing that Spacies video confirmed to me was that the ball speed toward the flippers is slower, when the incline is on the second notch of the spirit level (as it is in Zen's Williams Arcade mode and in Spacies video @16:20).

I also get that the FT in the vid is not in great condition and agree that Zen should be aiming to recreate each table in prime condition (as they currently are).

Jeff Strong said:

Like I said, there’s defintiely room for improvement in FX3, but they shouldn’t go too far in the other direction by slowing it down to play like a pin that isn’t properly maintained (that’s kinda how the older “Zen” physics feel at times already). Just have to find the right balance.

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Agreed But I still think Zen's version plays a tiny bit fast overall

Anyway, I hope they fix the de-syncing sound issue. That's quite annoying and likely to get more annoying the more we play.

A real ball has spin and it can jump which can alter the speed and direction. At the moment digital pinball is modelling a set behaviour and reproducing it every time. What we need is a bit of randomness without it becoming too obvious.

kimkom said:

Silverballs, not replying to you directly (I know where you're coming from). Just using your post as a link to Spacies vid...

Folks, I think we need to be cautious here that we are not expecting too much. imo, Zen's new Williams physics are currently the best I've seen in a digital format and it's great fun to play.

I'm all for striving for realism but we also need to remember that even the best simulation is never going to be a match for experiencing the real thing. I'd never expect a driving sim to capture every nuance of driving a real car, out in the real world and I wouldn't expect playing a digital recreation of Fish Tales to be any different.

Yes, let's help Zen strive to make it as good as they can but let's keep some perspective here. It's never going to match the real experience but it's still damn fun to play!

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So agree. Right now it's in a good spot. I would think there are a few more tweaks upon release but who's to say. I'm sure there are members here and other pinball communities still testing the game for them. At least I would think/hoping/would like to be one. looking forward to the 9th.

xAzatothx said:

A real ball has spin and it can jump which can alter the speed and direction. At the moment digital pinball is modelling a set behaviour and reproducing it every time. What we need is a bit of randomness without it becoming too obvious.

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You can have wildness without literal randomness. The way to do it is to push the simulation to super high spatial resolution. A ball doesn't sit at exactly the same position in the plunger or sinkhole every time, it's slightly different by micrometers depending on how it got there and what surfaces it scraped on the way in. A solenoid doesn't impart exactly the same force every time, it varies depending on its temperature and the power input (which in turn depends on how many lights the machine has on at that instant.) A held flipper isn't a rigid object, it flexes slightly also based on its power input. Model all that in the physics, and you get the true emergent chaotic behavior without artificially injected randomness.

Good points but let's remember that Zen is a multi-platform company that uses ported code between the platform. yes, it's very possible, even likely, that supporting the lower common denominator may prevent the perfect possible implementation of physics but it is what it is.

All I can say is IF what we are currently seeing is a sign of the physics on the lowest common denominator (switch and mobile in the near future), it's a step up from passed commercial pinsims (yes, we can debate propinball physics, however about we settle on a draw on that one? )

I think at some point "good feedback" can mean telling them that the physics are good and you're happy with them. Beta 4 is the best pinball simulation out there. I think we're running the risk of overcooking it with feedback and ending up with something like beta 2 as a release candidate and I know nobody on here wants that.

Thing is Zen is running a pretty serious risk of alienating their fanbase by giving us something as fast and furious as beta 4, and I think ultimately whichever version gets released is likely to be tuned to be a little slower, and more predictable once Zen purists get their hands on it. If I'm right, I'd rather play a slightly toned down version of beta 4 than beta 2.

With the end of the public beta, just wanted to say thanks to Zen for listening to our feedback.

The Williams badge for the beta testers is a nice touch

Roll on October 9th!

kimkom said:

With the end of the public beta, just wanted to say thanks to Zen for listening to our feedback.

The Williams badge for the beta testers is a nice touch

Roll on October 9th!

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Yeah, I got the message that I got the beta tester badge too, only it doesn't show up in my "badges" menu selection on Steam. Did I screw up and lose it somehow?
I'm not too experienced with Steam - generally I get my youngest son to sort things out for me, but he's working now...

Did anyone see the newest video release from Zen regarding flipper tricks? Just curious, but I wonder if the Jersey Jack Dialed In right behind Deep is a spoiler?

dmil666 said:

Yeah, I got the message that I got the beta tester badge too, only it doesn't show up in my "badges" menu selection on Steam. Did I screw up and lose it somehow?
I'm not too experienced with Steam - generally I get my youngest son to sort things out for me, but he's working now...

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Weird, I beta tested it on the first day but I've received no badge message? (no biggie, just curious)

dmil666 said:

Yeah, I got the message that I got the beta tester badge too, only it doesn't show up in my "badges" menu selection on Steam. Did I screw up and lose it somehow?
I'm not too experienced with Steam - generally I get my youngest son to sort things out for me, but he's working now...

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It's in the customization menu in PFX3 itself.

Ah thanks for the info

kimkom said:

It's in the customization menu in PFX3 itself.

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Aha! It took a while but I found it. Thank you very much!

Don't think it's been posted yet. sorry for the repost if it has.

Jeff Strong said:

Zen should just make some videos of FX3 playing side-by-side with their office FT, a montage of similar ball behaviors...and if they aren’t similar enough, then keep tweaking till it is!

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It was purely coincidence, but damn, Zen is on the ball here!

Jeff Strong said:

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Great video Spacie!

All very well said.

On the comparison video, there may well be technical limitations why the 'micro bounces' around the flippers are not quite as seen in the real video.

But hey, Zen... it's crazy good

BTW I don't remember encountering a single crash during my beta play.

Physics is looking real good!