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Thread: FX3 Williams Thoughts

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    Senior Member EldarOfSuburbia's Avatar
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    FX3 Williams Thoughts

    I just realized what has been nagging me about the FX3 Williams thing.

    It's essentially a reboot, but it feels like it's being done too soon, while the fun and joy of the "originals" are still fresh in our memories.

    It's the "Amazing Spider-Man" of digital pinball.

    Spider-Man (2002) and Spider-Man 2 (2005) were both amazing movies. Spider-Man 2 I consider to be maybe the best comic-book/superhero movie ever. Spider-Man 3 (2008) was a hot mess that killed off that Sam Raimi Spider-Man movies.

    How long did Sony wait to reboot the franchise? 4 years. Essentially deciding not to make Spider-Man 4, they went full reboot with The Amazing Spider-Man (2012) (and just 5 years later(!), Spidey was loaned to Marvel for Civil War etc. as yet another reboot!!)

    Remember, it took 10 years for WB to reboot Batman with "Batman Begins" after the twin debacles of "Batman Forever" and "Batman & Robin". That felt okay, because it was more like 13 years since "Batman Returns" and forget about the rest of the trash.

    So, circling back to digital pinball...

    TPA is not just still fresh in our memories, it's still being made! It still had WMS entries released this year. The "oldest" of the FX3 tables, Fish Tales, was released 4 1/2 years ago in TPA.

    So I'm not necessarily bashing Zen's efforts, I'm just saying it feels weird. It's too soon....
    "You've got an arm like a wet rag!" - The Dummy, Hurricane (Williams, 1991)
    "Ace of Clubs?!" - Bride of Pin*Bot, Jack*Bot (Williams, 1995)
    "You have been terminated. Have a nice day!" - Candy 2000, Safe Cracker (Williams, 1996)

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    Senior Member Pinballwiz45b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EldarOfSuburbia View Post
    TPA is not just still fresh in our memories, it's still being made! It still had WMS entries released this year. The "oldest" of the FX3 tables, Fish Tales, was released 4 1/2 years ago in TPA.

    So I'm not necessarily bashing Zen's efforts, I'm just saying it feels weird. It's too soon....
    Fish Tales is not the oldest in TPA release order. MM is, back in April 2012.

    Yeah, it's weird. But consider these:

    Getaway's Supercharger in TPA never felt right. Zen's version nails it.

    MM severely needed a facelift in TPA. Zen's version does MM justice.

    Junk Yard had audio pitched higher than normal in TPA. Zen's version nails it.

    Fish Tales, is, well...Fish Tales.

    Issues are still being ironed as we speak. I bet we're going to get some new stuff when Monday night rolls by.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EldarOfSuburbia View Post
    I just realized what has been nagging me about the FX3 Williams thing.

    TPA is not just still fresh in our memories, it's still being made! It still had WMS entries released this year. The "oldest" of the FX3 tables, Fish Tales, was released 4 1/2 years ago in TPA.

    So I'm not necessarily bashing Zen's efforts, I'm just saying it feels weird. It's too soon....
    My feeling on this is like this: I was actually worried that Williams Bally was going to forego digital pinball altogether and attempt to reboot the whole line-up as real tables only, a-la Chigago Gaming. I for one am glad they just decided to go with a different studio.

    I am not much of a video gamer but love digital pinball, so I am going to be compelled to buy Zen's first release. If it is not much better than playing TPA, I probably won't worry about buying more of Zen's "real" tables. But the idea of all the real tables mixed in with Zen's other amazing fantasy tables, and their amazing database and tournament system, well, I am going to have to jump in just to see if it's worth it.

    Zen's game has always been polished....can't wait to see these tables on xbox one.

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    Senior Member Citizen's Avatar
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    Spider-Man (2002) and Spider-Man 2 (2005) were both amazing movies.
    Strongly disagree.


    Anyway, I can see where you're coming from in regards to this feeling sudden, though only in the sense that it surprised me how quickly Zen had 4 tables this far along. I don't think it's "too soon," however. Maybe I'd feel differently if FarSight hadn't already eliminated seasons and regular releases, but to me this just feels like a much needed second wind for digital WMS tables. You can't just sit on a hot license like this after acquiring it, and Zen had an opportunity to do so, so they did, and now they're using it. The only alternative outcomes we could have gotten would have been even less desirable, in my opinion.

    Besides, the faster they start getting tables out, the sooner we'll get some new ones TPA never had and probably never would have gotten.

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    Senior Member wolfson's Avatar
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    Eldar , I can see where your coming from , but like Citizen I feel the same . to me the game feels great , I know it still needs a bit of mucking around with which will happen . never too early the quicker they get stuck into it the better . all I want is 1 new table every pack of 4 . graphics are great as usual and I will be happy with whatever they come up with the physics .

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    I’m actually *loving* this!

    The more pinball sims the better as far as I’m concerned!

    I’m still enjoying all the Arcooda/WMS cabinet tables on my Vertigo (and — unlike some — I feel like both companies did a *great* job with this package). But there’s always room for improvement, and I feel like Zen can get tables like “Revenge From Mars” and “Indiana Jones” out where there was basically no hope with FarSight.

    And in the meantime, I’m hoping FarSight will now cash in on the Stern license with some great sims of the new tables which utilize video monitors in lieu of DMDs. This will give them an opportunity to overhaul their pinball engine (like Zen did in going from FX2 to FX3). I’m also hoping they will now acquire some additonal licenses — like Capcom — so we might see “Big Bang Bar” in an official release some day.

    As somebody who participated in all the Kickstarters, I say “The More, The Merrier!”
    覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧-
    Updated most wanted FarSight list: 鉄pirit of 76 (Gottlieb) 鉄impsons (Data East) 釘ig Bang Bar (Capcom)
    Most wanted Zen list: 迭evenge From Mars, 的ndiana Jones, 擢unhouse

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    I don't care for movie reboots when there was nothing wrong with the original. If you are going to do a reboot, do it to a movie that had potential to be something great but clearly missed the mark. Or do it to a movie that has clearly aged horribly whether because of fashion, themes, or technology.

    Looking at TPA, it was pretty darn good but clearly had issues preventing it from reaching its full potential. This forum had been asking for the entire first 2 seasons to more or less be rebooted with updated images, toys, and tuning. So though it is rather quick, Zen has stepped in and seems to be doing a reboot that makes things great, that makes you forget about the original.

    Using the Spider-Man analogy, those two 'Amazing Spider-Man' movies felt wholly unnecessary and did little to improve on the original trilogy, but Spider-Man Homecoming was genius on every level and in my opinion the best of the lot. So if you are going to do a reboot, make it so good you don't ever need to revisit the original.
    I'm just sayin'

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    Member dmil666's Avatar
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    I'm actually pretty happy that the Williams/Bally license got picked up quickly rather than just disappear into limbo. I'm not a gamer either, but I do love digital pinball (anyone remember an old PC pinball game called "Psycho"? Great game) and I was thrilled when I found TPA and all of its great old tables this last April. Then Farsight lost the license and I thought that was the end for any more WMS tables, which was a bit of a wrench. Now, out of the blue, Zen picks up the WMS license, and their initial betas are killer and show the quality that the existing Zen tables have?

    Are you kidding me?

    This is one of the best things that could have happened (in my view) for digital pinball. This gives us continuity and can build on the interest of the game genre that TPA has made, and that more people that are interested in digital pinball and buy the games, the more chance we all have for getting more and better pinball to play. Plus, some competition will be good for Farsight, make them step up their game a little. I'm a big fan of TPA but it could definitely be improved upon.

    p.s. Not into the movie-to-pinball comparisons - it's like comparing oranges and titanium bulkheads. Plus, the actor that played Spidey in the first movie stunk out loud...
    Last edited by dmil666; 09-15-2018 at 04:48 PM. Reason: grammar
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    Senior Member kimkom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmil666 View Post

    This is one of the best things that could have happened (in my view) for digital pinball.
    Absolutely agree! Could not have come soon enough

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    Senior Pigeon Kolchak357's Avatar
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    For me this isn't a win until they start releasing pins we don't already have. I enjoy the FarSight version I have, and wasn't dissatisfied like some others were. Are these improved in some ways? It certainly appears so. But that really isn't enough for me. New content is what drives this for me. Only new pins and even pins we thought unobtainable will make this a big win for me. Assuming it comes to mobile/ios at all. If it doesn't hit mobile, then its just another visual/future pinball to me, a blip on my radar. Time will tell for me, no victories to be claimed yet for me. Glad the license isn't rotting on the vine though. The more pinball out there the better.

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    Senior Member kimkom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolchak357 View Post
    For me this isn't a win until they start releasing pins we don't already have. I enjoy the FarSight version I have, and wasn't dissatisfied like some others were. Are these improved in some ways? It certainly appears so. But that really isn't enough for me. New content is what drives this for me. Only new pins and even pins we thought unobtainable will make this a big win for me. Assuming it comes to mobile/ios at all. If it doesn't hit mobile, then its just another visual/future pinball to me, a blip on my radar. Time will tell for me, no victories to be claimed yet for me. Glad the license isn't rotting on the vine though. The more pinball out there the better.
    Kolchak, I'm surprised you feel that way but I understand your point of view.

    For me, it's not about Zen releasing digital pins that we don't already have in TPA form.

    It's about Zen being able to produce much better quality recreations of those classic tables, with all the bells and whistles that comes with on the PFX3 platform.

    Zen have already given us a glimpse of what they are capable of with the Williams beta and imo it already blows everything else out of the water.

    If they continue producing with this quality, I'm more than happy to support them and purchase all Williams tables again. Even if they release just what we already have in TPA.

    Out of interest, have you never purchased a HD remake of a classic game you already own?

    Or bought a bluray of a film you already have on VHS?
    Last edited by kimkom; 09-17-2018 at 05:35 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolchak357 View Post
    For me this isn't a win until they start releasing pins we don't already have. I enjoy the FarSight version I have, and wasn't dissatisfied like some others were. Are these improved in some ways? It certainly appears so. But that really isn't enough for me. New content is what drives this for me. Only new pins and even pins we thought unobtainable will make this a big win for me. Assuming it comes to mobile/ios at all. If it doesn't hit mobile, then its just another visual/future pinball to me, a blip on my radar. Time will tell for me, no victories to be claimed yet for me. Glad the license isn't rotting on the vine though. The more pinball out there the better.
    I disagree, I CAN'T go back and Play MM on TPA now. But I'll echo the sentiment others have the more the merrier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolchak357 View Post
    For me this isn't a win until they start releasing pins we don't already have. I enjoy the FarSight version I have, and wasn't dissatisfied like some others were. Are these improved in some ways? It certainly appears so. But that really isn't enough for me. New content is what drives this for me. Only new pins and even pins we thought unobtainable will make this a big win for me. Assuming it comes to mobile/ios at all. If it doesn't hit mobile, then its just another visual/future pinball to me, a blip on my radar. Time will tell for me, no victories to be claimed yet for me. Glad the license isn't rotting on the vine though. The more pinball out there the better.
    Nobody is forced to pick the new stuff. If you are happy with TPA, just enjoy.

    I do play VR pinball only, and the news that Zen picked up the licence is the best case possible in my opinion. Even if they dont work on VR versions at the moment, chances are good to see polished VR Bally/Williams tables one day. Can't wait!

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    Senior Pigeon Kolchak357's Avatar
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    Just giving my honest opinion. That's all. Not saying everyone else's opinion is wrong or invalid. Don't want it coming off that way. I enjoy reading everybody's opinion.

    And no I didn't replace my VHS with DVD until I no longer had a VHS player. And I don't buy a Blu-Ray of a DVD I already own. But If I go out today and buy a movie that was just released I will buy it in Blu-Ray. To me the difference is surely there, just not enough to justify buying them again (for me). And this is sort of how I see this digital pinball issue. Will the eventual Zen release be better than what I'm currently playing on the FarSight version? I certainly hope so, but I will have to wait for a mobile version to compare for sure. Will it be a big enough difference for me to rebuy? Not so sure about that one. That's all I'm saying.
    Maybe if I had PFX3 currently I would feel differently. But I only play on mobile and don't have that. Only have 1 laptop at home and that is used for work, not gaming.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Mobile is happening. It will not be within the current Zen pinball app (they have been working on something new that will be much more like FX3), but will be it's own thing at first, sort of like how Star Wars from Zen gets its own app. No time frame yet, but it is actively being worked on. WMS on mobile is not an 'if', but a 'when'.

    There is also news I'll be posting when the embargo is lifted at 10am Pacific this morning that will be yet another reason people will want to buy these despite owning in TPA. But that conversation will have to wait another 65 minutes!
    I'm just sayin'

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    Senior Member Sun Vulcan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolchak357 View Post
    For me this isn't a win until they start releasing pins we don't already have. I enjoy the FarSight version I have, and wasn't dissatisfied like some others were. Are these improved in some ways? It certainly appears so. But that really isn't enough for me. New content is what drives this for me. Only new pins and even pins we thought unobtainable will make this a big win for me. Assuming it comes to mobile/ios at all. If it doesn't hit mobile, then its just another visual/future pinball to me, a blip on my radar. Time will tell for me, no victories to be claimed yet for me. Glad the license isn't rotting on the vine though. The more pinball out there the better.
    Actually i feel the same. I'm much more interested in new pins.
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    Senior Member Naildriver74's Avatar
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    I feel the same as Kolchak357 and Sun Vulcan. Let’s have something new. It would be hard to buy the same pins again.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Citizen's Avatar
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    In a way it's a hard situation Zen is in with their release selections. On one hand you can't really have the WMS license and just keep snubbing tables like MM, FT, JY and HS2. On the other hand, fair or not, people are largely treating this like a continuation of what we already got with TPA, even though it isn't. You will always have many upset people if they do an entire pack without throwing in a TOM or AFM or MB or TZ, but you'll also have many upset people every time they do a 3/4 pack with nothing "new" (to TPA in spirit, which again, isn't Zen's problem, but can't be helped).

    That's why I think going forward it will be important to strike a balance. 1 or 2 new tables per pack. I think it was a misstep from a marketing standpoint to not have a new table in pack 1, but Zen has to be aware of the large number of people calling for a better balance in future packs, so I'm hopeful.

    p.s. Hey Kolchak if you love mobile so much why don't you marry it?

  19. #19
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    In a way it's a hard situation Zen is in with their release selections. On one hand you can't really have the WMS license and just keep snubbing tables like MM, FT, JY and HS2. On the other hand, fair or not, people are largely treating this like a continuation of what we already got with TPA, even though it isn't. You will always have many upset people if they do an entire pack without throwing in a TOM or AFM or MB or TZ, but you'll also have many upset people every time they do a 3/4 pack with nothing "new" (to TPA in spirit, which again, isn't Zen's problem, but can't be helped).

    That's why I think going forward it will be important to strike a balance. 1 or 2 new tables per pack. I think it was a misstep from a marketing standpoint to not have a new table in pack 1, but Zen has to be aware of the large number of people calling for a better balance in future packs, so I'm hopeful.

    p.s. Hey Kolchak if you love mobile so much why don't you marry it?
    Over on Facebook this was brought up, and Zen's response was to keep their eyes peeled for when coming packs are announced. In our podcast, Mel states that you don't want to squander the license, but also acknowledges that it's a marathon, not a sprint. So I'm confident they are hearing everyone's take and trying to address it accordingly.
    I'm just sayin'

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    Senior Pigeon Kolchak357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    p.s. Hey Kolchak if you love mobile so much why don't you marry it?
    I'm already married! Are you trying to get me in trouble with the law?

    Was a console guy for a long time. Atari 2600, Sega Genesis, PS2, PS3, etc. But I found I was using them less and less with each new generation. Eventually decided to cut the cord. Just bought a cheapo handheld device (5" screen) with 2500 old games preloaded just so I could play Donkey Kong and other old classic. Seems to have mostly NES and SNES games. Prob a piece of crap, but why not for $50.

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    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolchak357 View Post
    I'm already married! Are you trying to get me in trouble with the law?

    Was a console guy for a long time. Atari 2600, Sega Genesis, PS2, PS3, etc. But I found I was using them less and less with each new generation. Eventually decided to cut the cord. Just bought a cheapo handheld device (5" screen) with 2500 old games preloaded just so I could play Donkey Kong and other old classic. Seems to have mostly NES and SNES games. Prob a piece of crap, but why not for $50.
    That actually sounds pretty snazzy. Do you have a link?

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    Senior Pigeon Kolchak357's Avatar
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    Here’s a link to it on amazon. You can find it cheaper on eBay. I just opened it. Very light. If you dropped it, it would break for sure.

    https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Mars-Han...70_&dpSrc=srch

  23. #23
    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    Oh nice, it looks like a PSP clone, which brings back fond memories.

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    Senior Member wolfson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolchak357 View Post
    Here’s a link to it on amazon. You can find it cheaper on eBay. I just opened it. Very light. If you dropped it, it would break for sure.

    https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Mars-Han...70_&dpSrc=srch
    Kolchak looks real nifty 2,600 games

  25. #25
    Senior Member rehtroboi40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kolchak357 View Post
    For me this isn't a win until they start releasing pins we don't already have. I enjoy the FarSight version I have, and wasn't dissatisfied like some others were. Are these improved in some ways? It certainly appears so. But that really isn't enough for me. New content is what drives this for me. Only new pins and even pins we thought unobtainable will make this a big win for me. Assuming it comes to mobile/ios at all. If it doesn't hit mobile, then its just another visual/future pinball to me, a blip on my radar. Time will tell for me, no victories to be claimed yet for me. Glad the license isn't rotting on the vine though. The more pinball out there the better.
    Valid points. This would also be a win for anyone who didn't pick these tables up for TPA. I can't argue with the price and including the remastered tables is an extra mile-even if that feature sounds a little tacked-on.

    The Getaway and MM are the two I'm most excited about right now. I'm also looking forward to see if JY is more fun than it was in TPA (IMO, it was quite boring). Fish Tales was a good appetizer but will be better if they fix the U-turn STDM. The only time that's happened to me IRL was on an improperly-leveled FT table.

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