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Thread: BlahCade #149: Zen Studios Interview With Mel Kirk

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    BlahCade #149: Zen Studios Interview With Mel Kirk

    In this podcast, we have a huge chat with Mel Kirk from Zen Studios.

    Nothing is really off-limits in the interview and we use that to our advantage to ask questions that have been burning a hole in our minds for years now.

    There's nothing more to say really, apart from getting on with the job of listening.

    See https://blahcadepinball.com/149-mel-kirk-zen-interview for detailed notes about what we're talking about in the show.
    I'm just sayin'

    official BlahCade Pinball Podcast website blahcadepinball.com/episodes

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    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    Great interview, boys. Finally got around to listening (I’m always late to the party heh). Really awesome of Mel to come on the show. Seems like a great dude. The future is looking bright for us pinball nuts.

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    Senior Member wolfson's Avatar
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    watched it on youtube 3 times , one of the best by the 3 of you , well done . the thing I`ve always liked about Zen is they don`t muck around and you know when they mention a table , within a month it`s out . Chris , you had Greg from Spacies upside down because you didn`t mention cabinet support till near the end , I had a little chuckle hehe . I`m just loving the animations and you can turn it on or off by pressing the o button . can you get Mel and Greg from Spacies on a future show with all 4 of you together ? , that would a one beauty of a show !!!! one great thing with Zen , it has a plan for the future . well done once again

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    Senior Member SilverBalls's Avatar
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    Great listen!

    Excellent jobs guys - I thoroughly enjoyed this (listened to it on Youtube) and it made my 1.5 hour flight go in no time .

    From what Mel said in this interview and the way the Zen team have handled the beta, it looks like we have exciting days ahead. I feel a real sense of their passion - from Mel and all the developers, table designers, etc. that have been posting during the beta. Like he said they have no Egos, and they certainly have listened to feedback which is so refreshing. It also really helps bring the hardcore pinball community on-board.

    Like Greg on Spacies Arcade said in his Beta 3 video, I was getting worried that you weren't going to ask about cabinet mode, but you did after about an hour . A great response from Mel, so it sounds promising for sure. Hopefully they can keep it simple development wise by providing some framework to communicate with the outside world (like DOF or like Pro Pinball did).

    Once again a great listen - cheers.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    I'll come clean, it's hard for me to know what the important questions regarding cabinet mode are since I don't have a cabinet (donations are welcome though!). I've seen some interesting 'non cabinet' configurations I might pursue though. I have a spare 4:3 monitor that I might mount to my wall for use as a backglass, and then if I attached my monitor on an arm I could maybe rotate and arm it flat to my desk, so that it's cabinet in form. I'm seriously considering building the PinSim Jeremy Williams put specs up for as that would be the perfect controller to give that cabinet without a cabinet feel. My buddy does woodwork, 3D printing, and has built custom controllers before so my lack of construction ability won't be an issue. This way I keep my computer setup at my desk functional for normal activity, but in the same space can enjoy the benefits of cab style play. I guess you'll know when it happens when I start asking a bazillion questions about cabs to Zen!

    https://www.tested.com/tech/gaming/5...nball-machine/

    My only complain with this controller is it doesn't have 2 flipper buttons on each side, and those will be needed for Magna Save or something like The Shadow. I'd probably also want in addition to the plunger, a button style plunge.



    This is the sort of arm I'm thinking. Says it can rotate to portrait and tilt back 70 degrees which would be plenty.

    I'm just sayin'

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    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    That would be a sweet setup! I actually tried to find an arm that could hold a 55”, but it was just too heavy lol.

    I now have a spare 42” TV that I could use to make a proper cab, but after 20 years of sitting down while playing pinball due to my back injury, I actually prefer playing in landscape now because it’s closer to the angle I get in real life. The top-down portrait view isn’t realistic for me, even with my newer, snazzier wheelchair that can raise up several inches, which is fine for me because the portrait view sometimes makes me feel like the ball is moving too fast anyway because of the angles I’m used to, and often times they just look a bit off in general due to the nature of trying to squeeze everything in, while still making it appear a little “laid back” since no one actually plays real pinball looking directly down at the middle of the playfield. So if I do play in portrait, I always go for the most “laid back” view available, which at that point, I might as well just play in landscape!

    After fiddling around for the last few days with me new X-arcade setup, I’m finding Zen’s landscape View 1 to be right about the sweet spot for me.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Yeah my current monitor is only a 23", so weight would not be an issue!

    The thing I like about the PinSim box is it has nudge and rumble built in. Apparently in cabinet mode FX3 doesn't have coil support, but I wonder if it still has rumble since this is acting as a controller. I'm so used to sitting while playing digital pinball, it might be odd to have to stand up and play. I haven't priced it out myself, but someone said all the parts cost around $300 as listed. I was hoping for more around $150, so we'll see how soon I can afford to do something like this. Plus I'd have to buy the arm, which is another $100.
    I'm just sayin'

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    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    Motion nudge and rumble would be awesome indeed. Those are the two things I lack with my setup. Thankfully I at least have the extra side buttons for nudge.

    Let us know how it goes, dude. It’s great that you know someone who’s handy with woodworking and what not.

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    Senior Member SilverBalls's Avatar
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    That sounds excellent - you should definitely build something as it will transform your experience. Especially with all the Zen stuff that's coming our way. Start with this and then add a cab to it later

    Funnily enough although I have a full-size cab I spend a lot of time away from home abroad where I live in a small flat. If I get time I was thinking of building something similar to this so I can play on a desktop there. On that desktop I have a 28" screen for the playfield which is mounted on the wall at the back of the desk on a simple rotating vesa bracket (I didn't have room for one of the desk arms although that would give you a lot more flexibility). Like you say you could mount your 4:3 monitor on the wall to act as the backglass and that would be a pretty nifty setup. If you still want to sit down and play I guess you could adapt the design with different lower legs which allow you to slide a chair under it (would need some design though ).

    Incidentally I built my cab back in 2011 and initially I didn't implement flipper feedback, however when I added it a year or so later it transformed the experience unbelievably - to feel that physical thump of the solenoid really makes a difference. I used two Siemens 12v Contactors and an Opti-coupler.
    For this box it will be really interesting to see how good the rumble feels. It might be worth you leaving some space in the box to allow you to add solenoids at some time in the future just in case Zen implement some kind of message feedback framework. (eg: for bumpers and flippers). Just in case.....

    Some useful links:
    Example contactor - http://www.wolfsoft.de/shop/product_...nids-12dc.html
    A great guide to wiring and parts for a virtual pincab: http://pintek.org/documents/Pinball_...01_Ver1.08.pdf
    (Page 17 is how I implemented flipper feedback - this is the poor's man's implementation)


    Jeff: I also use nudge buttons in my cabinet as I can't physically nudge the cab (had a spine op). They work pretty well actually don't they. Incidentally did you use an IPAC keyboard encoder to connect the buttons or something else?
    Last edited by SilverBalls; 09-20-2018 at 12:48 PM.

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    Senior Member Tabe's Avatar
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    Excellent interview. Very well done. Lots of great information from Mel.

    Side note: Mel sounds like a really nice guy. I loved everything he had to say about the future of Williams tables as well.

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    Senior Member wolfson's Avatar
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    great thoughts everyone , Chris that box setup in your photo , I think I`ve seen something similar using VR , so I`d say why not . I have a feeling the way Mel was talking about VR in the future . well done SilverBalls , my hands and pea brain are only good for manual jobs hehe !!!

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    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBalls View Post
    Jeff: I also use nudge buttons in my cabinet as I can't physically nudge the cab (had a spine op). They work pretty well actually don't they. Incidentally did you use an IPAC keyboard encoder to connect the buttons or something else?
    Agreed, they do work well. Just saved a couple outlane drains in my last game of FX3, so that felt pretty good.

    I'm just using the X-Arcade model that comes stock with 2 buttons on each side, so nothing custom or modified.

    Would be cool if there was a way to mod in rumble, but I doubt it's possible since Windows recognizes it as a mouse/keyboard and not a joystick/controller, but I guess anything is possible. Wish I was more adventurous in that regard. I just never want to screw anything up lol.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfson View Post
    great thoughts everyone , Chris that box setup in your photo , I think I`ve seen something similar using VR , so I`d say why not . I have a feeling the way Mel was talking about VR in the future . well done SilverBalls , my hands and pea brain are only good for manual jobs hehe !!!
    You've seen it for VR because Jeremy Williams specifically built it for use with FX2 VR! It made a huge splash on Twitter and I know Mel and Bowen have both had their hands on it. Since he programmed it to be recognized as an Xbox 360 controller, it'll plug and play with any of the digital pinball games we know and love.

    I'm curious about pricing it out. Some parts might be cheaper to buy more than one of, so I'm wondering if making a couple and selling all but the one I need would make more sense. Things to think about.
    I'm just sayin'

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    Senior Member wolfson's Avatar
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    thanks Chris , it`ll be great to find a price . it could help a lot of pinball players on screen or VR , great !!!

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    Ya’ know, you guys could just “pony up” and purchase the VPCabs Vertigo. Yeah .. Fully configured you’re looking at 4K, but just look at everything you’re getting:
    * Full size cabinet with 32” playfield and separate color DMD monitor.
    * Dedicated pinball side flipper and nudge buttons.
    * Very nice integrated stereo audio with an awesome subwoofer.
    * Full arcade lighted joystick, button, and trackball controls.
    * PC upgrade package so you can run everything you want. Easliy accessible by removing four screws in the rear of the cab.
    * All current Zen Pinball FX3 tables preinstalled.
    * Pinball X interface preinstalled.
    * All the “feel” of classic Pinball in a unique space-saving configuration.

    I’ve had mine for over a year and it still impresses the heck out of me everytime I fire it up!
    (Of course, I *really* enjoy playing the Arcooda/Farsight cabinet tables on this thing!)
    Last edited by vfpcoder; 09-21-2018 at 12:54 PM.
    ———————————————————————————————-
    Updated most wanted FarSight list: “Spirit of ‘76” (Gottlieb) — “Simpsons” (Data East) — “Big Bang Bar” (Capcom)
    Most wanted Zen list: “Revenge From Mars”, “Indiana Jones”, “Funhouse”

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    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vfpcoder View Post
    Ya’ know, you guys could just “pony up” and purchase the VPCabs Vertigo. Yeah .. Fully configured you’re looking at 4K, but just look at everything you’re getting:
    * Full size cabinet with 32” playfield and separate color DMD monitor.
    * Dedicated pinball side flipper and nudge buttons.
    * Very nice integrated stereo audio with an awesome subwoofer.
    * Full arcade lighted joystick, button, and trackball controls.
    * PC upgrade package so you can run everything you want. Easliy accessible by removing four screws in the rear of the cab.
    * All current Zen Pinball FX3 tables preinstalled.
    * Pinball X interface preinstalled.
    * All the “feel” of classic Pinball in a unique space-saving configuration.

    I’ve had mine for over a year and it still impresses the heck out of me everytime I fire it up!
    (Of course, I *really* enjoy playing the Arcooda/Farsight cabinet tables on this thing!)
    How much do they pay you in commission?

    Kidding of course! That does sounds pretty damn fantastic. How much did it set you back?

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    Senior Member SilverBalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Strong View Post
    I'm just using the X-Arcade model that comes stock with 2 buttons on each side, so nothing custom or modified.

    Would be cool if there was a way to mod in rumble, but I doubt it's possible since Windows recognizes it as a mouse/keyboard and not a joystick/controller, but I guess anything is possible. Wish I was more adventurous in that regard. I just never want to screw anything up lol.
    Yea modding one of those sounds a bit risky .
    Last night I had a game of FX3 on my son's computer and I used the keyboard. I didn't realise it but he had an XBOX controller plugged in sitting on top of the desktop tower under the desk. Every time the pop bumpers went the controller vibrated violently on the metal of the PC case. It kind of gave me the feeling of physical feedback even though I wasn't touching the controlller. It was the violent vibrations on the metal. It got me thinking whether there is a kind of way of just fixing the XBOX controller under the desk below the keyboard or maybe put it in a metal biscuit tin on the desktop and fix the tin to the desk. Maybe the noise and vibration would give a kind of poor man's feedback. No hacks required but just an idea.
    Last edited by SilverBalls; 09-21-2018 at 01:33 PM.

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    The whole thing came to about $4200. It’s definitely not cheap ... until you look at the cost and maintenance of purchasing real pinball machines. And I realize this thing isn’t a real pinball machine. Heck, it’s not even configured like a real pinball machine. But I get a “taste” of playing hundreds of real pinball tables at a fraction of the cost. I’ve had people over who have real “Attack from Mars” and “Funhouse” machines in their basements; and they can’t get over how much fun it is to play the recreations on this thing.
    ———————————————————————————————-
    Updated most wanted FarSight list: “Spirit of ‘76” (Gottlieb) — “Simpsons” (Data East) — “Big Bang Bar” (Capcom)
    Most wanted Zen list: “Revenge From Mars”, “Indiana Jones”, “Funhouse”

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    Senior Member SilverBalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    You've seen it for VR because Jeremy Williams specifically built it for use with FX2 VR! It made a huge splash on Twitter and I know Mel and Bowen have both had their hands on it. Since he programmed it to be recognized as an Xbox 360 controller, it'll plug and play with any of the digital pinball games we know and love.

    I'm curious about pricing it out. Some parts might be cheaper to buy more than one of, so I'm wondering if making a couple and selling all but the one I need would make more sense. Things to think about.
    Come on Chris get working on it - it will give plenty of stuff to speak about in the blahcade podcast - lol

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    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverBalls View Post
    Yea modding one of those sounds a bit risky .
    Last night I had a game of FX3 on my son's computer and I used the keyboard. I didn't realise it but he had an XBOX controller plugged in sitting on top of the desktop tower under the desk. Every time the pop bumpers went the controller vibrated violently on the metal of the PC case. It kind of gave me the feeling of physical feedback even though I wasn't touching the controlller. It was the violent vibrations on the metal. It got me thinking whether there is a kind of way of just fixing the XBOX controller under the desk below the keyboard or maybe put it in a metal biscuit tin on the desktop and fix the tin to the desk. Maybe the noise and vibration would give a kind of poor man's feedback. No hacks required but just an idea.
    Ya know, that’s actually a very cool idea. Never thought of it, but now you have me intrigued so I’m off to do some tinkering.

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    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vfpcoder View Post
    The whole thing came to about $4200. It’s definitely not cheap ... until you look at the cost and maintenance of purchasing real pinball machines. And I realize this thing isn’t a real pinball machine. Heck, it’s not even configured like a real pinball machine. But I get a “taste” of playing hundreds of real pinball tables at a fraction of the cost. I’ve had people over who have real “Attack from Mars” and “Funhouse” machines in their basements; and they can’t get over how much fun it is to play the recreations on this thing.
    Awesome, man. Definitely sounds like one of those investments that you quickly feel like you got your money’s worth and then some.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vfpcoder View Post
    Ya’ know, you guys could just “pony up” and purchase the VPCabs Vertigo. Yeah .. Fully configured you’re looking at 4K, but just look at everything you’re getting:
    * Full size cabinet with 32” playfield and separate color DMD monitor.
    * Dedicated pinball side flipper and nudge buttons.
    * Very nice integrated stereo audio with an awesome subwoofer.
    * Full arcade lighted joystick, button, and trackball controls.
    * PC upgrade package so you can run everything you want. Easliy accessible by removing four screws in the rear of the cab.
    * All current Zen Pinball FX3 tables preinstalled.
    * Pinball X interface preinstalled.
    * All the “feel” of classic Pinball in a unique space-saving configuration.

    I’ve had mine for over a year and it still impresses the heck out of me everytime I fire it up!
    (Of course, I *really* enjoy playing the Arcooda/Farsight cabinet tables on this thing!)
    We do take donations to our BlahCade PayPal account, or you could buy a crap ton of our new t-shirts we’re about to announce 😁

    By buddy priced out the box controller for me. One of the big expenses is just the table legs. Anybody got a rusty set they no longer need? Same with plunger assembly. I did think the ultimate would be to put metal rails around the edge and a small piece of glass where your palms rest to really get the ‘feel’. He’s got a C & C machine as well as a 3D printer so it’ll be a precision build. I need to scrounge around and come up with another $150 on top of what I have now to start. Less if I can get legs and plunger on the cheap.

  23. #23
    Senior Member wolfson's Avatar
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    my VP table is just about ready , Darryl is going to film it and I`ll get it hopefully next week . I didn`t mind waiting , and I ended up with I think 1,125 tables and 12,000 retro games . total cost was $2,840 au I think that`s a bit over $2,000 us , that was with upgrades to the PC . you all know how hopeless I am at uploading videos and pics , I will let you know when it`s on youtube on Ultra Custom Cabs Brisbane .

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    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfson View Post
    my VP table is just about ready , Darryl is going to film it and I`ll get it hopefully next week . I didn`t mind waiting , and I ended up with I think 1,125 tables and 12,000 retro games . total cost was $2,840 au I think that`s a bit over $2,000 us , that was with upgrades to the PC . you all know how hopeless I am at uploading videos and pics , I will let you know when it`s on youtube on Ultra Custom Cabs Brisbane .
    Hell yeah! Can't wait to here your impressions of it

  25. #25
    Moderator Jeff Strong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Strong View Post
    Ya know, that’s actually a very cool idea. Never thought of it, but now you have me intrigued so I’m off to do some tinkering.
    So it seems FX3 only rumbles when you hit the bumpers and slings, eh? I remember TPA having a ton of rumble, so I'm hoping it's still a work in progress for FX3. I could definitely see how it'd be cool to rip the motors out of the Xbox controller and mount them on the inside of my X-arcade heh.

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