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Thread: Williams' Collection Volume 4 guesses

  1. #26
    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    also something thats been bugging me... now i dont know what kind of contracts went on or whatever but worst case: even though farsight lost the bally/williams licence that doesnt mean they dont still hold exclusive rights to recreate the licenses for some of those tables. For example lets say they signed elvira for 10 years and put exclusivity in the contract, that would mean zen cant touch it till it expires. Lets hope we dont run into a bunch of that...

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    also something thats been bugging me... now i dont know what kind of contracts went on or whatever but worst case: even though farsight lost the bally/williams licence that doesnt mean they dont still hold exclusive rights to recreate the licenses for some of those tables. For example lets say they signed elvira for 10 years and put exclusivity in the contract, that would mean zen cant touch it till it expires. Lets hope we dont run into a bunch of that...
    Rights holders would be incentivized to renegotiate their existing license if it wasn't nulled out with loss of Williams license. Especially if that license included a percentage of sales. Rights holders can't earn anything if they don't have an actual product for sale.

  3. #28
    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    Some people buy rights purposly with the intent of competitors not getting those rights and then do nothing with them. The owners of the properties have no say regardless of a product existing. Its like catch and kill.

  4. #29
    Senior Member Gorgar's Avatar
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    Farsight used to have exclusive rights to reproduce Williams and Bally tables. I don’t think they contracted exclusive rights in their 3rd party contracts too.

  5. #30
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Exclusive rights would have only been for a short term. Now if this new mystery table FarSight is indeed working on turns out to be the 3rd Elvira table, that would preclude Zen from doing the other two for a period of time (probably a year, no more than 2).

  6. #31
    Senior Member trash80's Avatar
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    In response to Pete.

    This is not how it works with actual third-party media asset licensing. Almost all contracts require the end product featuring said license by a certain date or the agreement is void (or extension signed with penalties attached).

    You may be thinking of asset acquisition via liquidation and/or auction of some sort where there is no longer a viable third party asset owner/trustee.

    If you are basing this theory on the Marvel verses Sony verses 20th Century Fox movie fiasco(s) regarding specific characters, well... that example doesn't translate over to the digital rights we are discussing here.
    Last edited by trash80; 03-11-2019 at 07:56 AM.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    Why do you say that? There's absolutely no reason to think Zen wouldn't do these. The priority is DMD to cater to better sales (as FarSight admitted to) and ease the Zen Pinball crowd into playing real tables. Give 'em time, they'll get to them.
    If this is the case, I'd rather they hold off with Jack-Bot and release that as a 3 pack with the BoP, and Pin-Bot, family pack! As for V4, I'd like to believe TotAN, WW, and maybe Who-Dunnit?
    My tables I'd love to see would be Fire!, Eight Ball Deluxe, and maybe trying out Space Shuttle or Strikes N' Spares, but these seem like they'd be far off!!!

  8. #33
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash80 View Post
    In response to Pete.

    This is not how it works with actual third-party media asset licensing. Almost all contracts require the end product featuring said license by a certain date or the agreement is void (or extension signed with penalties attached).

    You may be thinking of asset acquisition via liquidation and/or auction of some sort where there is no longer a viable third party asset owner/trustee.

    If you are basing this theory on the Marvel verses Sony verses 20th Century Fox movie fiasco(s) regarding specific characters, well... that example doesn't translate over to the digital rights we are discussing here.
    Correct. When FarSight was negotiating for the use of The Terminator, another game company had just bought the rights. A special deal had to be worked out proving that digital pinball was not going to compete with whatever game they had planned, and that FarSight would not have to pay the same sum since it was for a very narrow aspect of the license. In both cases though, the exclusivity of the license has since expired. If you look at Elvira, it would make no sense for FarSight to renew that license simply to block Zen, as they themselves can't sell the table. I do no believe these 3rd party licensors are earning any residuals from table sales either.

    The Marvel license that Sony, Fox, and Universal have are interesting. There was a clause in place that if licenses weren't used, then they would revert back to Marvel. This is why Fox kept making X-Men movies, why they tried rebooting Fantastic Four. It will be interesting to see if Dark Phoenix does any business (I'll be seeing it, but I like that whole franchise) and what happens to New Mutants as that was Fox trying to extend and create a new franchise.

    Same goes for Sony with Spider-Man, which is why they did three reboots. Had Venom tanked, Sony most likely would have let Marvel buy the rights back from them as they weren't sure if anyone would care for a Marvel movie that wasn't set in the MCU. Instead they hit an unlikely jackpot with both that and Into The Spiderverse, so will hold on to the rights and continue to make both MCU set Spider-Man and separate universe Venom and other rogues gallery characters.

    I don't quite understand the Universal deal regarding Hulk. Marvel essentially has full ownership of the character and can do what they wish, except make a stand alone movie. Only Universal can do that. The workaround for that is what happened with Thor: Ragnarok, which could have just as easily been a Hulk movie that happened to have Thor in it.

    Swinging back around to The Terminator, it took all these years for the rights to finally revert back to James Cameron. Look at the chain of studios that were involved, from Orion to Caralco to Warner Bros to Paramount, and that was all just for distribution. The actual production companies are even more a mess. Terminator 6 is has listed both Paramount and Fox among the productions companies (is Terminator now going to the Mouse?), but it's Cameron's Lightstorm being listed too that is most important as that is who is in charge of nurturing the character now.
    I'm just sayin'

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  9. #34
    Senior Member EldarOfSuburbia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    It will be interesting to see if Dark Phoenix does any business (I'll be seeing it, but I like that whole franchise)
    I'm not sure I can handle Sopie Turner playing anyone other than Sansa Stark so soon after the end of GoT! So that was a bit weird, seeing that trailer ahead of Captain Marvel.

    I don't think they can screw up the Dark Phoenix saga as bad as they did in The Last Stand. Possibly the biggest let-down in the whole franchise, after that epic tease at the end of X-2 (still, of course, the best in the series).
    "You've got an arm like a wet rag!" - The Dummy, Hurricane (Williams, 1991)
    "Ace of Clubs?!" - Bride of Pin*Bot, Jack*Bot (Williams, 1995)
    "You have been terminated. Have a nice day!" - Candy 2000, Safe Cracker (Williams, 1996)

    Wizard Goals remaining: Safe Cracker 26 [Unique] Tokens (19/26 collected); F-14 250K Launch Bonus; Frankie 150M Creature Jackpot, Complete CREATURE

  10. #35
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sh4wnsm1th View Post
    If this is the case, I'd rather they hold off with Jack-Bot and release that as a 3 pack with the BoP, and Pin-Bot, family pack! As for V4, I'd like to believe TotAN, WW, and maybe Who-Dunnit?
    My tables I'd love to see would be Fire!, Eight Ball Deluxe, and maybe trying out Space Shuttle or Strikes N' Spares, but these seem like they'd be far off!!!
    I don't think Zen is going to get cutesy with their pack releases. Otherwise we'd probably have seen Safe Cracker, No Good Gofers, and Roadshow all together as a Pat Lawlor pack.

    When it comes to SS/Alpha Numerics, there are a few repeats that I'd want sooner than later

    Whirlwind
    Centaur
    F-14
    BoP (with 2.0 DMD and rules too)

    But then I also want to see lots of new to digital tables, starting with

    Rollergames
    Mousin' Around
    Vektor
    Fire!

    After that, there are a host of oddball Bally tables from the 80's that I'd like to see in addition to all the System 11 machines we've yet to have gotten. I honestly don't see Zen doing something like Future Spa or Embryon, or at least not until they've exhausted most of the popular oeuvre. Games of that era, very much rooted in EM style layouts and rules, just seem to outside their brand. But who knows, it all depends on what sales. If they get around to doing something like Medusa and it does well, the door might be opened to such tables.
    I'm just sayin'

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  11. #36
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EldarOfSuburbia View Post
    I'm not sure I can handle Sopie Turner playing anyone other than Sansa Stark so soon after the end of GoT! So that was a bit weird, seeing that trailer ahead of Captain Marvel.

    I don't think they can screw up the Dark Phoenix saga as bad as they did in The Last Stand. Possibly the biggest let-down in the whole franchise, after that epic tease at the end of X-2 (still, of course, the best in the series).
    Well Sophie was in Apocalypse, so I'm not too thrown by it. If anything it's Jennifer Lawrence that's the distraction, especially since I can't see her ever becoming Rebecca Romijn and her blue is no longer shiny!

    The only reason I can now watch Last Stand is to laugh at it being all retconned by Days of Future Past. I am nervous for the movie though, because it's the same writer, just without the studio and Brett Ratner interference. X-2 is still phenomenal, with Days being close behind it. I actually didn't hate Origins: Wolverine, mostly due to the fact I'm unfamiliar with any of the comics and had no clue who Deadpool was or should have been. My biggest gripe had been the seriously dodgy CG, especially with his claws. Now of course because of the Deadpool movies, it's turned into as much of a joke as Last Stand has. Logan and The Wolverine are both top notch too as far as I'm concerned. I pity whoever Marvel eventually recasts him with.
    I'm just sayin'

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  12. #37
    Senior Member lettuce's Avatar
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    Regarding License table being on their own and not bundled with any other tables, surely a great shout for pack 7 (which should be around October) would be

    Bram Stokers Dracula
    Monsterbash
    Creature From the Black lagoon

    as these are all Universal IP's???

  13. #38
    Senior Member trash80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lettuce View Post
    Regarding License table being on their own and not bundled with any other tables, surely a great shout for pack 7 (which should be around October) would be

    Bram Stokers Dracula
    Monsterbash
    Creature From the Black lagoon

    as these are all Universal IP's???
    Dracula is not a Universal Monster IP, but is based on the book which is in Public Domain.

    Universal though has recently scooped up EPIC which handled branding dev and IP management for a huge amount of properties that are represented in pinball.

    In fact, with the consolidation happening in the media IP world of late, you could probably release almost every pinball table by having agreements with Warner Media, Vivendi (Bravado), Comcast (NBCUniversal) and Disney.

    edit: Even I can't keep track anymore... it was Universal Music (Vivendi) that purchased EPIC. Oh well. And Universal Monsters is under the Comcast umbrella.
    Last edited by trash80; 03-11-2019 at 11:15 AM.

  14. #39
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Dracula is based on the movie, Sony holds those rights.

  15. #40
    Senior Member Citizen's Avatar
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    Does BSD also require a license from Zoetrope?

  16. #41
    Senior Member trash80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    Dracula is based on the movie, Sony holds those rights.
    You are correct... I got my horror monster pinball licenses messed up.

    The one I was thinking of is Phantom of the Opera, which is based on the book as opposed to the play.

  17. #42
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Does BSD also require a license from Zoetrope?
    No, it's just Sony.

    Most of these TV and Movie licenses come from whatever company is the distributor, not all the various production companies.
    I'm just sayin'

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  18. #43
    Senior Member kimkom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post

    When it comes to SS/Alpha Numerics, there are a few repeats that I'd want sooner than later

    Whirlwind
    Centaur
    F-14
    BoP (with 2.0 DMD and rules too)
    Agree with Centaur and BoP but would prefer Funhouse over the other two all day long. Really interested to see what Zen can do with Rudy.

  19. #44
    Senior Member Gorgias32's Avatar
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    The more I think about it, I think the remaining unlicensed DMD tables have just too many AAA titles to split into evenly balanced packs with only DMDs. I would not be surprised if, for one of the "B-tier" tables in collection 4, they pick a pre-DMD game. Some of them are so close to having DMD that you hardly notice - like the Elvira tables, Earthshaker, or even Dr. Dude, which would give them the Dr. Dude/Party Zone series - a properly tuned Dr. Dude would be just as much fun as Party Zone.

  20. #45
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kimkom View Post
    Agree with Centaur and BoP but would prefer Funhouse over the other two all day long. Really interested to see what Zen can do with Rudy.
    I figure with Roadshow we’ll see how they’d handle a Rudy head. I almost put Funhouse on there, but I do prefer Whirlwind and thought of all they could do with F-14 both in physics and enhanced visuals.

  21. #46
    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    I just need to keep repeating this till they give in to my demands- Heavy Metal Meltdown! HEAVY MEETAAALL MEELLTDDOOWWWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I won an award playing Heavy Metal Meltdown the other day, friggin love that table.

  22. #47
    Senior Member warh0g's Avatar
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    Circus Voltaire
    JackBot
    Red N Ted's Roadshow

    I mean, if one can dream
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  23. #48
    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    I like the theory that they might start spreading out the remaining DMD's with some older tables. of the remaining 9 tables there are 5 or 6 big pull you in titles so it does look a bit like maybe they have wiggle room to throw some in.

    If they are paying attention to what non-DMDs the fans want and have done some research you know they have had to at least glance at the big top lists.
    Let's Look at the top 100 williams/bally non-DMD from both pinside and ipdb's lists. Here are all 25 tables that make the lists.

    Funhouse (#33 PS / #15 IPDB)
    Whirlwind (#39 PS / #49 IPDB)
    Fathom (#42 PS / #93 IPDB)
    Centaur (#57 PS / #43 IMPD)
    Taxi (#63 PS / #46 IMPD)
    Black Knight (#? PS / #55 IPDB) (cant find on pinside list)
    Eight Ball Deluxe (#67 PS / #103 IPDB)
    Black Knight 2000 (#73 PS / #75 IPDB)
    Barracora (#79 PS / #149 IPDB)
    Bride of Pinbot (#82 PS / #22 IPDB)
    Earthshaker (#84 PS / #69 IPDB)
    Pinbot (#86 PS / #51 IPDB)
    Banzai Run (#90 PS / #88 IPDB)
    Space Station (#91 PS / #111 IPDB)
    Diner (#94 PS / #52 IPDB)
    Sword of Fury (#95 PS / #50 IPDB)
    High Speed (#98 PS / #38 IPDB)
    Firepower (#99 PS / #94 IPDB)
    Medusa (#100 PS / #179 IPDB)
    Paragon (#112 PS / #86 IPDB)
    Sorcerer (#117 PS / #87 IPDB)
    Mousin' Around! (#120 PS / #92 IPDB)
    Cyclone (#122 PS / #65 IPDB)
    Embryon (#139 PS / #96 IPDB)
    Xenon (#140 PS / #98 IPDB

    I honesly do not care if most of these "already done" tables get the zen treatment. Zen does an excellent job but I just dont need a better copy of most of these. Funhouse, Taxi, Dinner I could see wanting a nicer version with added effects but screw the whole rest of the already done list. I love them all dont get me wrong but Ive never turned on TPA loaded up Paragon and said I wish this looked/played better. I guess the one thing that would make Paragon more real is if they gave you a really wide controller because when your at that table in real life that things is friggin wide.

    Anyways so of these 25 tables only 5 have not been done (TPA was really cranking them out)
    -Barracora
    -Space Station
    -Medusa
    -Mousin' Around!
    -Embryon

    Of those 5 Mousin' Around is probably the only one they will deem to have mass market apeal due to it's colorful cartoon design. Bad Cats & Dr Dude didnt make either top 100 but have the kind of
    fun colorful cartoon design that would look appealing to the average non adult consumer which is their bread and butter. I think looking at Party Zone being an early release we
    can see they think colorful cartoon designs sell. I absolutely love the kind of Art on Barracora and Embyon but the whole Robot/Alien fetish kink thing on many of these 70's 80's machines
    doesn't do too well with the younger crowd.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    I honestly do not care if most of these "already done" tables get the zen treatment. Zen does an excellent job but I just dont need a better copy of most of these. Funhouse, Taxi, Dinner I could see wanting a nicer version with added effects but screw the whole rest of the already done list. I love them all dont get me wrong but Ive never turned on TPA loaded up Paragon and said I wish this looked/played better. I guess the one thing that would make Paragon more real is if they gave you a really wide controller because when your at that table in real life that things is friggin wide.
    If we go by tables redone with Zen, EBD is one that I feel would be nice to redo, as the ball in TPA is way too floaty on that table in my opinion. Would like to see it have that chance of missing that upper saucer at times, and being a real beast as it can be in real life. I could do without most of the others, as BK & BK2000 never really grabbed me, Funhouse is one I don't get all that much, Pinbot is great, but if we got Jack-Bot, with it being the same table, the original might be redundant, though I've always loved the simplicity of Pinbot compared to Jack-Bot's rulesets. Centaur could be another redone, as TPA always sucked with seeing the ball in my book, and Zen seems to be way better with their ball not blending with the table. Earthshaker never really grabbed me, BoP as well. Firepower could do without as well.

    Would agree though with wanting more new stuff not covered by TPA, as well as getting 1 or 2 EMs from Bally/Williams, I tend to like the gameplay feel of EMs in real life at times.
    Last edited by sh4wnsm1th; 03-26-2019 at 01:50 PM.

  25. #50
    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    Eight ball deluxe is a great one. I could pass on jackbot if they gave us pinbot instead, but not the other way around really love the original. The first black knight is one of my favorites and came out in 1981 the year I was born so it holds a special place for me. Bk2000 ive never liked all that much.
    Last edited by Pete; 03-26-2019 at 05:01 PM.

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