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Thread: Could Farsight reskin the Williams tables, and make them into Farsight originals?

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    Senior Member msilcommand's Avatar
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    Could Farsight reskin the Williams tables, and make them into Farsight originals?

    I assume Farsight owns the code the wrote for the tables themselves. So, theoretically, could they reskin the artwork, code the core game code/DMD themselves with their own sound, give them new names and themes, and then release those tables as Farsight originals?

    If Williams doesn't actually own the physical layout of the table, then Farsight wouldn't need to alter the table structure. I don't know enough about the licensing to say for sure, but I do know that if they could reuse the code base for the table's layout and physics without needing to alter them, it should be less work to reskin the table and program new gameplay themselves for it. If they did need to physically alter the layout to avoid infringement, then it wouldn't make much sense to re-purpose the code.
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    Senior Member Silverball67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msilcommand View Post
    I assume Farsight owns the code the wrote for the tables themselves. So, theoretically, could they reskin the artwork, code the core game code/DMD themselves with their own sound, give them new names and themes, and then release those tables as Farsight originals?

    If Williams doesn't actually own the physical layout of the table, then Farsight wouldn't need to alter the table structure. I don't know enough about the licensing to say for sure, but I do know that if they could reuse the code base for the table's layout and physics without needing to alter them, it should be less work to reskin the table and program new gameplay themselves for it. If they did need to physically alter the layout to avoid infringement, then it wouldn't make much sense to re-purpose the code.
    Who's gonna buy reskinned williams tables with the same outdated physics, graphics and sound from farsight?

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    Senior Member msilcommand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverball67 View Post
    Who's gonna buy reskinned williams tables with the same outdated physics, graphics and sound from farsight?
    Well, let's look at Zen originals. Their physics are unrealistic, their graphics are proprietary, their sound is proprietary, their game rule programming and DMD are proprietary. Yet people still buy them all the time.

    You're thinking along the lines of them sticking to an emulated reality approach if they made Farsight original tables. There would be no reason to do so. They could follow FX3's example.
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    Quote Originally Posted by msilcommand View Post
    I assume Farsight owns the code the wrote for the tables themselves. So, theoretically, could they reskin the artwork, code the core game code/DMD themselves with their own sound, give them new names and themes, and then release those tables as Farsight originals?

    If Williams doesn't actually own the physical layout of the table, then Farsight wouldn't need to alter the table structure. I don't know enough about the licensing to say for sure, but I do know that if they could reuse the code base for the table's layout and physics without needing to alter them, it should be less work to reskin the table and program new gameplay themselves for it. If they did need to physically alter the layout to avoid infringement, then it wouldn't make much sense to re-purpose the code.
    A table remake is 10% code and 90% assets (which are just digitizations of actual physical resources). If Farsight were to make the assets from scratch based on some other third party IP (like Dr Who Master of Time) it would not be saving Farsight any time and/or money, in fact, it would likely quadruple the amount of effort needed to put a finished table out. You see, when a table is built, all the of the table elements are assigned to solenoids which are controlled/connected to the ROM which displays the resulting interaction on the DMD. Injecting custom sound and graphics into a ROM can be done, but it isn't trivial to make these assets from scratch and then have them work within an existing codebase and ruleset.

    If you are going to re-skin/re-theme a table, the EM era is much more viable due to the table 'code' being scripted, so it is much easier to use custom assets, but then again, I don't think anyone is very interested in re-skinned EM tables, when there are still a good number of fantastic Gottlieb EM tables that Farsight have yet to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msilcommand View Post
    Well, let's look at Zen originals. Their physics are unrealistic, their graphics are proprietary, their sound is proprietary, their game rule programming and DMD are proprietary. Yet people still buy them all the time.

    You're thinking along the lines of them sticking to an emulated reality approach if they made Farsight original tables. There would be no reason to do so. They could follow FX3's example.
    Compare TPA Master of Time to a Zen Original. Farsight isn't equipped to compete with Zen. Then if you factor in that Farsight is unable and unwilling to secure attractive third party licenses, there is really no reason to entertain this idea.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    There are three instances of FarSight reskinning a table.

    There's the Ghostbusters table, which used the unfortunate choice of Haunted House as it's donor table. They added multiball, made it so the ball wouldn't drain between the double flippers, and threw on a bunch of 'toys'. The result was not well received at all, lacking any inspiration.

    Then there's Doctor Who: Masters of Time. I don't dislike this effort, but there's some visual design flaws that are major. The first being the upper playfield looks barren with just the TARDIS sitting there rather than the cool mech device that rose and captured balls. The second was the miniature size they used for the Weeping Angels. These should have been at least twice as large and had a real menacing look. Instead they look like cheap toys from a gumball machine. Lastly, there's the lack of cool lighting, whether it be from the inserts or the overall GI. It just seems pedestrian when it should have been otherworldly.

    Lastly there's Black Hole in the Pinball Tournaments app. Why they named it that is beyond me, as it just confuses things. It is a reskin of Fireball, and to be honest I like what they did. The rules got changed ever so slightly, visuals were enhanced to make it easier to see what you needed to shoot for on an iPhone or iPad, and the sound design was even workable. The main issue with this though is the fact you can't just play it outright. It only works within the Skillz app and it abruptly ends your game as soon as you hit 50K points or the timer ends after 3 minutes.

    You can kinda sorta say World Champion Soccer is a reskin, as they changed all sorts of color, text, and art on World Cup Soccer '94 in order to not deal with licensing. DMD changes were implemented on certain screens, though some times the original will glitch into view. Rules however were never changed.

    Now compare that with what Zen did JUST with visual enhancements on the 10 Williams tables they've done. It's not even close. Look at their design and execution of Jurassic Park and Aliens and compare that to Doctor Who. Zen is a like a custom car builder, FarSight is someone going to Pep Boys and slapping spinner rims and neon underlighting to a used car and calling it custom.

    FarSight would need to hire a dedicated art department that solely focused on pinball, and led by someone who obsesses over pinball. They'd also have to have a team who understands what it takes to make interesting rules for tables, and then code for that. Even Stern struggles with that, letting their tables go out into the wild with code that will be updated numerous times in the following year after getting feedback from their customers.

    All this would be predicated on the fact that FarSight even wants to dedicate themselves to pinball going forward. There sole fanatic retired 14 months ago, there's guys there that have come to enjoy pinball, but it wasn't why they went to work there. It's a studio that was making contract games for 15+ years prior to falling into the land of pin, and it would seem they are going back to that.

    They've given up on pinball after being dumped, they'd like to still be friends, and there's even the possibility of a booty call now and then, but for the most part it's over. Maybe it's even just too painful to give it another go. The illusion is shattered, fun was had, now it's time to move on.
    I'm just sayin'

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    Senior Member msilcommand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash80 View Post
    A table remake is 10% code and 90% assets (which are just digitizations of actual physical resources). If Farsight were to make the assets from scratch based on some other third party IP (like Dr Who Master of Time) it would not be saving Farsight any time and/or money, in fact, it would likely quadruple the amount of effort needed to put a finished table out. You see, when a table is built, all the of the table elements are assigned to solenoids which are controlled/connected to the ROM which displays the resulting interaction on the DMD. Injecting custom sound and graphics into a ROM can be done, but it isn't trivial to make these assets from scratch and then have them work within an existing codebase and ruleset.

    If you are going to re-skin/re-theme a table, the EM era is much more viable due to the table 'code' being scripted, so it is much easier to use custom assets, but then again, I don't think anyone is very interested in re-skinned EM tables, when there are still a good number of fantastic Gottlieb EM tables that Farsight have yet to do.
    That's great intel. I am thinking of it from a web developer perspective, thinking that the app code is already done, handling the structure of the app; but that doesn't seem to apply here.
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    Senior Member msilcommand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post

    Now compare that with what Zen did JUST with visual enhancements on the 10 Williams tables they've done. It's not even close. Look at their design and execution of Jurassic Park and Aliens and compare that to Doctor Who. Zen is a like a custom car builder, FarSight is someone going to Pep Boys and slapping spinner rims and neon underlighting to a used car and calling it custom.

    FarSight would need to hire a dedicated art department that solely focused on pinball, and led by someone who obsesses over pinball. They'd also have to have a team who understands what it takes to make interesting rules for tables, and then code for that. Even Stern struggles with that, letting their tables go out into the wild with code that will be updated numerous times in the following year after getting feedback from their customers.

    All this would be predicated on the fact that FarSight even wants to dedicate themselves to pinball going forward. There sole fanatic retired 14 months ago, there's guys there that have come to enjoy pinball, but it wasn't why they went to work there. It's a studio that was making contract games for 15+ years prior to falling into the land of pin, and it would seem they are going back to that.

    They've given up on pinball after being dumped, they'd like to still be friends, and there's even the possibility of a booty call now and then, but for the most part it's over. Maybe it's even just too painful to give it another go. The illusion is shattered, fun was had, now it's time to move on.
    I did not know these things about Farsight. I understand now why they went the route they did. I was under the false impression that pinball was their bread and butter.

    They would definitely need to have some pinball geek coders there to even sneeze at developing good rules for a pin.
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    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    if they specifically made fun of the tables to cover parody laws and the rule sets were originally coded (didnt use any original rom images) all art and animations were redone... then well yeah legally they could mad magazine the models they built and put out stuff like "attack of the double guitar shredding lizard creatures from outer space" and "Creepy Puppet's Carnival House" or "flashbulb bald guy goes to the electric chair" and stupid crap like that. My pinball league is doing a t-shirt contest so I actually was just doing spoof art on some of these tables. Kind of hard to see whats going on with the details being so tiny and jammed in but the funhouse is eating people and the king of pain has a sock puppet because he is crazy and has just been making those other king voices himself. anyways tell farsight i have a million ideas and to hit me up with some cash.
    Last edited by Pete; 04-12-2019 at 11:15 AM.

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    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    ...also give zen a call and tell them their original tables lack being awesome and they definitely should be giving me money for my table ideas because i know exactly what pinball is and should be. This one for example is called Flabbergaster and it is friggin insane. Mr. TV is a manic psychopath who's mood is altered by gameplay. The Tinfoil hats are sort of like the aliens in the claw machine from toy story. the only life they know is the machine they are stuck inside of, but they are very paranoid and anti government, the government being the pinball table itself, they worship and fear the ball as a god. Sargent toothbrush. SQUIRRREEELLLSSSSS!!!!!!!! I could go on for a very long time about this table and how awesome it would be if zen made it.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Pete, I’m not sure the meds you’re taking are actually prescribed to you. Check the bottle buddy, we don’t need an accident!

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    Senior Member msilcommand's Avatar
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    I support parody tables. @Pete, on Steam FX3 has a system that lets you request some sort of table designing setup from them. You should look into that and make some stuff. I think you can submit things to them, but I am not sure.
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    Pete, you could call em Farskin

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    Senior Member msilcommand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timxtr View Post
    Pete, you could call em Farskin
    Lol...[cough]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ...also give zen a call and tell them their original tables lack being awesome and they definitely should be giving me money for my table ideas because i know exactly what pinball is and should be. This one for example is called Flabbergaster and it is friggin insane. Mr. TV is a manic psychopath who's mood is altered by gameplay. The Tinfoil hats are sort of like the aliens in the claw machine from toy story. the only life they know is the machine they are stuck inside of, but they are very paranoid and anti government, the government being the pinball table itself, they worship and fear the ball as a god. Sargent toothbrush. SQUIRRREEELLLSSSSS!!!!!!!! I could go on for a very long time about this table and how awesome it would be if zen made it.
    I'm going to sue you as that game is clearly based on my life.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I'm going to sue you as that game is clearly based on my life.
    Wait! You have a TV for a head?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post

    All this would be predicated on the fact that FarSight even wants to dedicate themselves to pinball going forward. There sole fanatic retired 14 months ago, there's guys there that have come to enjoy pinball, but it wasn't why they went to work there. It's a studio that was making contract games for 15+ years prior to falling into the land of pin, and it would seem they are going back to that.

    They've given up on pinball after being dumped, they'd like to still be friends, and there's even the possibility of a booty call now and then, but for the most part it's over. Maybe it's even just too painful to give it another go. The illusion is shattered, fun was had, now it's time to move on.
    Wonder what they'll do with all the physical Williams tables they purchased, that would be a nice but expensive job lot for someone!

    Perhaps they've begun selling them already, no idea.

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    Senior Member Citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    Wait! You have a TV for a head?
    Of course.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by francis247uk View Post
    Wonder what they'll do with all the physical Williams tables they purchased, that would be a nice but expensive job lot for someone!

    Perhaps they've begun selling them already, no idea.
    Nope, they’re wisely holding on to them. They have about 10 set up in their conference room, another 20 on site at a local bar, and then there’s this sad image down in storage...

    22A8BDAD-DD13-4EE7-8839-378EBA820926.jpg
    I'm just sayin'

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    Quote Originally Posted by msilcommand View Post
    I support parody tables. @Pete, on Steam FX3 has a system that lets you request some sort of table designing setup from them. You should look into that and make some stuff. I think you can submit things to them, but I am not sure.
    Aware Zen take theme requests but but didn't realise they could potentially supply table layout or development tools.

    I'm a graphic designer though I recently sold my share in a business and now looking to take my career in a different direction. Very tempted to contact companies such as Zen or Stern to discuss potential work experience opportunities as I no longer have any commitments and could easily relocate.

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    Senior Member msilcommand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBeeching View Post
    Aware Zen take theme requests but but didn't realise they could potentially supply table layout or development tools.

    I'm a graphic designer though I recently sold my share in a business and now looking to take my career in a different direction. Very tempted to contact companies such as Zen or Stern to discuss potential work experience opportunities as I no longer have any commitments and could easily relocate.
    Hell yeah, man! Do it. I emailed them myself to see if they needed any web devs who could work remote. No dice though. ��
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    Nope, they’re wisely holding on to them. They have about 10 set up in their conference room, another 20 on site at a local bar, and then there’s this sad image down in storage...

    22A8BDAD-DD13-4EE7-8839-378EBA820926.jpg
    You mean Sandy's... the current list (and where the Farsight pinball league plays) has the following:

    Creature from the Black Lagoon
    Cue Ball Wizard
    F-14 Tomcat
    Frank Thomas’ Big Hurt
    Gladiators
    High Speed II: The Getaway
    Indy 500
    No Fear
    Mustang
    Space Shuttle
    Star Trek: The Next Generation
    Tee’d Off
    Terminator 2: Judgement Day
    Wipe Out
    World Cup Soccer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBeeching View Post
    Aware Zen take theme requests but but didn't realise they could potentially supply table layout or development tools.

    I'm a graphic designer though I recently sold my share in a business and now looking to take my career in a different direction. Very tempted to contact companies such as Zen or Stern to discuss potential work experience opportunities as I no longer have any commitments and could easily relocate.
    Budapest is a beautiful place. Plus, you get a lot of bang for your buck there. Let me know if I should expect to see you on an upcoming House Hunters International.

    Chicago is fine... but it wouldn't be my first choice between the two.

    You may want to submit a resume and portfolio to SGI (Bally Williams...). They have offices and studios worldwide and could offer you a lot of growth potential.
    Last edited by trash80; 04-13-2019 at 09:24 AM.

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    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    I have too many ideas, more than ill ever get to in my life. Making pinball tables would be awesome but im too focused on animating cartoons. Right now i have that pinball table drawing entered in a t-shirt contest for the new england pinball league. If i win im thinking allot of the league will be rocking that shirt at major pinball events. So if all the cards fall into place just right the stern dudes will see the shirt and come looking for me. Otherwise were just gonna have to cross our fingers that the zen people randomly see this not even related buried thread and freakout with the need to make it digital. because i dont goto companies they come to me and if they dont then screw em.

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