Zen & Stern collaboration teaser?

The circled segment of the graph below is the majority of the "nostalgia factor" segment (though 31-34 will have a few who grew up near pin arcades in the late 90s, or who had pins at home). That is roughly a potential 25% of the gamer market, maybe 2-5% of whom played pinball in the 60-90s and would be affected by nostalgia.

All I am saying here is that it seems like the digital pinhead community is vastly overestimating the pull that emulated pins will have in the long-run, most likely because we're just excited that someone is making better emulations than Farsight now, and we have the potential of some new tables we may have wanted to see.

https://ibb.co/4W2YSSG

[MENTION=7578]trash80[/MENTION]

Can you give me an example of a company that has made a pinball game with real-world emulated physics, or real-world emulated machines, and has thrived as a company for many years, making it possible to continue bringing us new and improved digital pinball right now?

msilcommand said:

[MENTION=7578]trash80[/MENTION]

Can you give me an example of a company that has made a pinball game with real-world emulated physics, or real-world emulated machines, and has thrived as a company for many years, making it possible to continue bringing us new and improved digital pinball right now?

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Do you know how long Farsight and has been doing this? They may be changing paths to a degree due to license costs, loss of personnel and other things, but they are still a successful software developer.

But I think your question opens a larger scoped discussion. Does the current market for new physical pinball machines have the user base to support five or six manufacturers. I'll guess, No. Well the same applies to the digital space.

Also, you need to keep in mind that Farsight was a trailblazer and up until very recently, they were one of the yardsticks (and Barnstorm) you measured the other pinball sims to. Now, VPX and the dedicated fan creations have blown away all but the Zen WMS tables in terms of physics and presentation. And when we can count the hardcore digital pinball fans in the thousands, it can be very difficult to survive when competing against superior and free.

This is why Zen must be able to do full SPIKE 2 releases as close to the physical release as possible. This isn't just about nostalgia, it is about the FUTURE.

trash80 said:

Do you know how long Farsight and has been doing this? They may be changing paths to a degree due to license costs, loss of personnel and other things, but they are still a successful software developer.

But I think your question opens a larger scoped discussion. Does the current market for new physical pinball machines have the user base to support five or six manufacturers. I'll guess, No. Well the same applies to the digital space.

This is why Zen must be able to do full SPIKE 2 releases as close to the physical release as possible. This isn't just about nostalgia, it is about the FUTURE.

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It seems apparent from interwebs research that Farsight sputtered along almost the entire time on their digital pinball side (a few spikes of excitement here and there). Likely due to catering mainly to that small small nostalgia base.

If they had made their own original tables, with a newb entry level style of play, the way ZEN does, catering to that 10-30 year old gamer base, would they still be going strong? Seems more likely.

We are in 100% agreement on the FUTURE being the most important thing at issue here. We can foresee what the future entails in a company follows the Farsight model of catering mainly to the nostalgia base.

msilcommand said:

It seems apparent from interwebs research that Farsight sputtered along almost the entire time on their digital pinball side (a few spikes of excitement here and there). Likely due to catering mainly to that small small nostalgia base.

If they had made their own original tables, with a newb entry level style of play, the way ZEN does, catering to that 10-30 year old gamer base, would they still be going strong? Seems more likely.

We are in 100% agreement on the FUTURE being the most important thing at issue here. We can foresee what the future entails by following a Farsight model of catering mainly to the nostalgia base.

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You really need to do some more research, but being a part of it over the years has a certain perspective you just can't see as someone getting into the 'scene' now. Hindsight (and google search) has certain advantages, but passion and excitement isn't part of that, and while I'm sure you will continue to judge Farsight and Zen as you have, you really don't know what you are talking about.

I suggest you go find a copy of Electronic Arts Pinball Construction Set and then let us know how easy it is to make an original table.

Speaking of nostalgia... those Nintendo all-in-one classic console things have sure been a horrible idea (that was sarcasm).

trash80 said:

you really don't know what you are talking about.

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I see you saying that type of thing a lot to people in this forum, condescending, assuming some pseudo position of rank. I think it's a cheap copout...but carry on.

trash80 said:

I suggest you go find a copy of Electronic Arts Pinball Construction Set and then let us know how easy it is to make an original table.

Speaking of nostalgia... those Nintendo all-in-one classic console things have sure been a horrible idea (that was sarcasm).

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Building the code for first few tables is definitely arduous, but once you have the stem of the builds, code-wise, you can reuse a lot. ZEN put in that legwork already. The bulk of their work for originals at this point is likely design and assets and adaptation for platform support. That plus licensing, likely being the bulk of their development cost.

Again, the question is: will developing licensed emulated pins be costlier than building originals, considering development + licensing. If so, will emulation cause some magical revenue boost over the long term to make up for that higher cost. My position is that the bulk of gamers being 10-30 makes the answer a huge NO. However, if ZEN keeps developing originals alongside the emulations, keeping new content for the younger, less serious players and newbs, they should be fine.

msilcommand said:

I see you saying that type of thing a lot to people in this forum, condescending, assuming some pseudo position of rank. I think it's a cheap copout...but carry on.



Building the code for first few tables is definitely arduous, but once you have the stem of the builds, code-wise, you can reuse a lot. ZEN put in that legwork already. The bulk of their work for originals at this point is likely design and assets and adaptation for platform support. That plus licensing, likely being the bulk of their development cost.

Again, the question is: will developing licensed emulated pins be costlier than building originals, considering development + licensing. If so, will emulation cause some magical revenue boost over the long term to make up for that higher cost. My position is that the bulk of gamers being 10-30 makes the answer a huge NO. However, if ZEN keeps developing originals alongside the emulations, keeping new content for the younger, less serious players and newbs, they should be fine.

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Not really. I have only said this to you. You have been "corrected" by others on the forum, and even been given extensive real-world examples of why you are wrong and/or mistaken. I understand you are a web developer, but that dev cycle can be very different than what it is on a multi-platform game. These days the code base and engine side of things are so little of the complete process that many times it makes the most sense to use an off the shelf engine (like Unreal, Unity, etc) which Zen (and plenty of other studios) has done while also outsourcing certain platform specific work. All of this allows a studio to concentrate on what they do best, which in the case of Zen is content creation.

I'll continue to defer to Mel over at Zen as opposed to you when it comes to making the best business development decisions for Zen. I guess I should apologize for not being as diplomatic as Mel (and others). Patience isn't my strong suit. And I see there is an ignore feature... good to know.

shutyertrap said:

Funny you should mention that...[REDACTED]

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What are you getting at here shutyertrap? I know you have the inside scoop, so I'm hoping you're alluding to some changes in the flipper physics.

IMO, the flipper physics are currently not at all what we were shown pre-release, as I detailed in the post I linked below. I've been severely underwhelmed with them so far.

http://www.digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/13969-Flipper-control-and-advanced-skills?p=285018#post285018

trash80 said:

All of this allows a studio to concentrate on what they do best, which in the case of Zen is content creation.

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Funny, but you are saying the same exact thing I am saying. You are just referring to general "content", while I am referring to creative content, rather than just regurgitated emulations, which are content, yes, but which have very little creativity involved aside from the extra graphics.

And stop using words like "corrected", as if YOU know exactly what you're talking about either. Speculation brother, you're doing it too.

msilcommand said:

Funny, but you are saying the same exact thing I am saying. You are just referring to general "content", while I am referring to creative content, rather than just regurgitated emulations, which are content, yes, but which have very little creativity involved aside from the extra graphics.

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No. You are attempting to suggest a business model to Zen based on your personal feelings and assumptions. Until you have built an emulated table from scratch and also an original one (with third party IP or not) from scratch using the same already there code and/or engine, you may be surprised at how creative the team must get when tackling license issues, modern social perceptions, store front expectations, emulated game play compared to the real thing that everyone is an expert on, etc.

"Very little creativity" you say... thanks for the chuckle.

As an aside, do you really think it is more creative for a fiction writer to build their own world and write in that world with no boundaries, or for the same writer to approach a work of fiction set in an established world like a Games Workshop or Blizzard or Star Wars and still be able to tell an amazing and creative story that readers will be immersed in. Similar tool-sets, but different specializations. I know which type of writing makes more money...

speaking of original tables... I'd love to see Zen get a Games Workshop license. And since I personally know anyone and their grandma can secure a GW license for digital content. Comon' Zen!

crazyflipperfingers said:

What are you getting at here shutyertrap? I know you have the inside scoop, so I'm hoping you're alluding to some changes in the flipper physics.

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I think he was. This was tucked at the end of his next post:

shutyertrap said:

There's stuff happening in beta right now to further close the gap.

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Blkthorne said:

I guess the thing for me is all the "fans" of Zen that claim they have abandoned their core audience seem to have selective memory when it comes to fantasy releases, I decided to check my purchases for Zen pinball:

2013-Pinball FX3 is released along with their Star Wars/Marvel/Zen classic tables etc.
2014-SW: Heroes Within and The Walking Dead
2015-Iron & Steel, Portal, Balls of Glory
2016-SW:Force Awakens, Alien, Marvel's Women of Power and Bethesda
2017-Universal Classics and Carnivals & Legends
2018-Jurassic World, SW: Last Jedi and SW: Solo

If you look at these lists, Zen brought out 2-4 packs a year for fantasy tables so they are still on pace for that this year even with the Williams' releases. People need to calm down and not take it as real tables vs. fantasy tables, they can both coexist.

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Many of these are Pinball FX2 dates. Pinball FX 3 didn't come out till years later (Sept. 2017 on Steam) and the FX2 tables rolled over into FX3 DLC with dates from your original FX2 purchases.

Still, Zen has a history of releasing both original IP tables and third party IP original tables fairly consistently. But I see more and more people wanting the WMS classic physics on the original tables (while pleading that they don't want anymore more Star Wars or Marvel tables) and player trends back this up. So I hope that is something Zen addresses in the near term as they have created a lot of new pinball fans out of their old player base that have found they prefer a challenging set of physics and quicker game times.

trash80 said:

No. You are attempting to suggest a business model to Zen based on your personal feelings and assumptions. Until you have built an emulated table from scratch and also an original one (with third party IP or not) from scratch using the same already there code and/or engine, you may be surprised at how creative the team must get when tackling license issues, modern social perceptions, store front expectations, emulated game play compared to the real thing that everyone is an expert on, etc.

"Very little creativity" you say... thanks for the chuckle.

As an aside, do you really think it is more creative for a fiction writer to build their own world and write in that world with no boundaries, or for the same writer to approach a work of fiction set in an established world like a Games Workshop or Blizzard or Star Wars and still be able to tell an amazing and creative story that readers will be immersed in. Similar tool-sets, but different specializations. I know which type of writing makes more money...

speaking of original tables... I'd love to see Zen get a Games Workshop license. And since I personally know anyone and their grandma can secure a GW license for digital content. Comon' Zen!

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Incorrect. I did not say I knew what cost them more to build. I said "if".

Coding creativity, yes, but that's within the engineer wheelhouse. Outside of that you're just copying an existing table. You're REcreating, not creating. Good try though.

It seems like you're suggesting that throw-away fiction, such as Star Wars novels make more money than, let's say, The Hunger Games?

msilcommand said:

Incorrect. I did not say I knew what cost them more to build. I said "if".

Coding creativity, yes, but that's within the engineer wheelhouse. Outside of that you're just copying an existing table. You're REcreating, not creating. Good try though.

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Do you have any idea what goes into "copying an existing table?" (shakes head) Seriously, do you? Even Farsight, whom were attempting 1:1 emulations without all the Zenified enhancements had to do enormous amounts of custom graphic and sound work.

Have you ever used Maya or Blender to build a 3-D model? How about creating textures that scale properly? The job creativity goes on and on.

edit. Farsight used to have a video published somewhere that went over the whole restorative digitization process and you may want to track it down and give it view or three. Also, you can go look at Matt's (Farsight art guy) posting history and maybe shoot him a nice note asking about the process. You may enjoy learning about what a (creative) labor of love this whole thing is.

trash80 said:

Do you have any idea what goes into "copying an existing table?" (shakes head) Seriously, do you? Even Farsight, whom were attempting 1:1 emulations without all the Zenified enhancements had to do enormous amounts of custom graphic and sound work.

Have you ever used Maya or Blender to build a 3-D model? How about creating textures that scale properly? The job creativity goes on and on.

edit. Farsight used to have a video published somewhere that went over the whole restorative digitization process and you may want to track it down and give it view or three. Also, you can go look at Matt's (Farsight art guy) posting history and maybe shoot him a nice note asking about the process. You may enjoy learning about what a (creative) labor of love this whole thing is.

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Again, REcreative development vs creative development. I've coded in 3D modeling, I am pretty savvy of the landscape of application development and its processes. Again, you're assuming superiority based on nothing more than an internet tag name to back you up. Take a nap or something. I'm not going to dance with you any further.

msilcommand said:

Again, REcreative development vs creative development. I've coded in 3D modeling, I am pretty savvy of the landscape of application development and its processes. Again, you're assuming superiority based on nothing more than an internet tag name to back you up. Take a nap or something. I'm not going to dance with you any further.

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I'm pretty sure you want to be banned. First the abusive language, now this.

Ignore feature in full affect. Carry on ya'll.

FarSight never wanted to create their own tables, full stop.

They had the opportunity to have the license to do the Sega South Park table, but in was contingent on them making an original table too. They declined, said that's not what they do, next thing you know Zen is doing South Park tables. Funny how that works, no?

A lot of this what Zen should and shouldn't do discussion brings up another point FarSight made. For as much as a vocal group of people begged for EM machines, and for as much as FarSight made the point of saying Big Shot was one of their most played tables in the game, they simply didn't make hardly any EMs. The reason was those packs didn't sell nearly as well as SS/Alpha Numerics, which themselves didn't sell nearly as well as DMDs. In the land of DMD, guess which sell the most? Yep, licensed.

So we can go back and forth all we want about what's best, what people want, what will extend the life of a company, but they are the ones with the sales figures. They are the ones that know where the profit margins are, what the man hours spent creating from scratch a table versus a recreation are, and one we're all forgetting, what the long term goals are for the company. We can guess and speculate and wish all we want. We can be like 'Last Jedi' haters who swore up and down that they would boycott future movies because of how much that one wrecked their childhood, only to see the new trailer and go, "well it seems maybe you learned your lesson, I'll go. But I've got my eyes on you!"

James Cameron had a fascinating take on mega budget movies around the time True Lies was releasing. There was this cry from critics mostly, that the small, mid budget movies were getting squeezed from being made in favor of the 100 million movie (how quaint!), but why should they when they could be so much more profitable if they are a hit? Keep in mind Blair Witch had just cleaned up at the box office on a fraction of even a small budgeted film. Cameron essentially said he'd rather bet on the big budget film that has a better chance at grabbing a mega sized audience than a small film that has to fight to even be seen, no matter the quality, and though it's profit margin will be tremendous, will never turn over a huge payday. And then of course he dropped Titanic on the world and laughed all the way to the bank.

Point being, a Zen original, even using a license, I suspect is simply never going to sell as well as a recreation table. Stern is cranking out new pinball around 4 times a year. All these young millenials are playing those, and that inspires them to look seek more. Most places that have these machines have at least one older title. Person plays one of those, down the rabbit hole they go. Think about music that you weren't alive for on the radio, but one band leads you back a little, making you wonder where that sound came from. Soon you listen to a flashback weekend, or tune into a station that plays older music, and you inherently feel the difference, the nostalgia speaks even when you don't have any connection. It's amazing how we as humans can suss out what is manufactured nostalgia from true. A modern band can try for an 80's sound, but they'll never fool anyone into thinking they actually were from then. Same goes for pinball, why these old designers are still being hired today. The simple act of playing pinball is rife with nostalgia, even to a new player.

shutyertrap said:

excellent wall of text

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I have a small shop with about 40 pins here and this is exactly what I see happening. The same can be said with the vinyl resurgence and record store day. There are a good number of people that like to excavate, go down the rabbit hole, find out who influenced who, what trends drove the current style, so on and so forth. And since you like movies...

“Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: “It’s not where you take things from - it’s where you take them to." ― Jim Jarmusch

shutyertrap said:

A lot of this what Zen should and shouldn't do discussion brings up another point FarSight made. For as much as a vocal group of people begged for EM machines, and for as much as FarSight made the point of saying Big Shot was one of their most played tables in the game, they simply didn't make hardly any EMs. The reason was those packs didn't sell nearly as well as SS/Alpha Numerics, which themselves didn't sell nearly as well as DMDs. In the land of DMD, guess which sell the most? Yep, licensed.

So we can go back and forth all we want about what's best, what people want, what will extend the life of a company, but they are the ones with the sales figures. They are the ones that know where the profit margins are, what the man hours spent creating from scratch a table versus a recreation are, and one we're all forgetting, what the long term goals are for the company.

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To add one more element to this, if I recall correctly, haven't the sale figures for the WMS packs actually exceeded Zen's expectations? And we aren't even into licensed stuff yet.

So it seems like they knew what they were doing when they made the decision to double dip into doing both digital originals and recreations.