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Thread: Zen & Stern collaboration teaser?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    Have they got a good proper cab mode going for the Williams tables? Gregg from SpaciesArcade seemed to indicate that there’s still no backglass or DMD support, as well as visual things like the table moving when nudged, which instead it should be locked since the actual cab would be moving.
    there's a camera that is close to cabinet mode, but it was said to be in the plans after things get sorted out and we haven't heard anything since. As far as Spacies goes there is no official support for a real DMD but there are workarounds currently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    I don't think you'd find a single person on the planet who would go, "nah, I'll just download this $10 3 pack instead of spending $8000 on a full size table" if they are pinball collectors. Those that can afford a new Stern, buy new Sterns. Those that can't afford one, are simply never going to be a Stern customer, period. What a digital version does do is entices a person to dream and save in the hopes of one day buying one. Stern gets no money from the secondary market of physical machines, so who cares if an older table supports cab mode? And if you did have the cash to buy new, wouldn't it be nice to sample the 3 currently in production digitally to see which one you'd really like most?

    Just getting my vocal minority concerns out upfront before zen has even confirmed a deal. Let's not forget how much complaining we had to do to get an uncensored steam version when they first took over williams/bally. Would I still buy them? yes. But I'll also complain about how dumb it is.

  3. #53
    Senior Member msilcommand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBeeching View Post
    Real pinball cabs are so hard to come by in most regions and impossibly cost prohibitive to own for most people, whenever I see one I want to play it immediately and that reignited interest is largely due to the video game alternatives. Perhaps he's slowly coming around though, the Rift versions certainly felt like a step in the right direction.
    Last weekend I stretched $5 in quarters for an hour and a half on a real AFM. Prior to practicing on emulations of it, I would have needed at least $20 to get that much play; in my adolescence, probably more. Without a free pin to practice on somewhere back in the 80s-90s, or a free-play arcade (which was nonexistent in NJ then), the cost to practice on a pin was very prohibitive for the average person. My allowance as a teen in 1994 was $3.50 (and I had a ****-ton of chores to earn it). That would have been one set of 5 plays and a slice of pizza and a coke a week.

    I love digital pinball for this reason. All of those years of pins I yearned to play, and I finally can do it, sort of, but it is good enough for me. I have actually found that with the pins on TPA and FX3, my real life score ranges are very similar. So, they have got it down pretty damn close.

    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap
    I don't think you'd find a single person on the planet who would go, "nah, I'll just download this $10 3 pack instead of spending $8000 on a full size table" if they are pinball collectors.
    I wouldn't invest $2000 in building a digital cabinet over putting that $2000 away for a real pin, because the two are separate experiences to me. I plan (one day) on building a multi-cade cab with two seats, and a portrait screen with my pie running the mass of pre-3D stuff I already own, and a PC running the post-3D stuff. I don't see any value in building a digital pinball cab. Just my preference though.
    Last edited by msilcommand; 04-15-2019 at 10:39 AM.
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  4. #54
    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    I don't think you'd find a single person on the planet who would go, "nah, I'll just download this $10 3 pack instead of spending $8000 on a full size table" if they are pinball collectors.
    True, but you forgot one perspective. The bar arcades that have been popping up lately. There is one about an hour away from me, that actually has the mentality you mentioned above. Every machine is set to free play and you just pay an entrance fee. This arcade was planning to buy a couple brand new Stern pinball machines, but decided to go with pincabs in the end. In their eyes, digital pinball is good enough and they can easily load a new table in them.

    Stern gets no money from the secondary market of physical machines, so who cares if an older table supports cab mode?
    Actually, they do. They make a ton of money on replacement parts. I just bought another machine (Robocop from Data East) and Stern still makes replacement parts for it. They usually contract a 3rd party company to make a reproduction of the part, but Stern still gets a nice cut from it.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    True, but you forgot one perspective. The bar arcades that have been popping up lately. There is one about an hour away from me, that actually has the mentality you mentioned above. Every machine is set to free play and you just pay an entrance fee. This arcade was planning to buy a couple brand new Stern pinball machines, but decided to go with pincabs in the end. In their eyes, digital pinball is good enough and they can easily load a new table in them.


    Actually, they do. They make a ton of money on replacement parts. I just bought another machine (Robocop from Data East) and Stern still makes replacement parts for it. They usually contract a 3rd party company to make a reproduction of the part, but Stern still gets a nice cut from it.
    Good points I hadn’t thought of. Zen is planning for a commercial grade cab to go into locations, and I have to wonder if that behemoth they had at SWCC isn’t exactly that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    True, but you forgot one perspective. The bar arcades that have been popping up lately. There is one about an hour away from me, that actually has the mentality you mentioned above. Every machine is set to free play and you just pay an entrance fee. This arcade was planning to buy a couple brand new Stern pinball machines, but decided to go with pincabs in the end. In their eyes, digital pinball is good enough and they can easily load a new table in them.
    Zen does request you show them a picture of your cab when requesting a cabinet key, they wanted to make sure it's for personal not commercial use. Admittedly not a perfect system I'm confident enough that if they skip it on stern tables (like tpa cabinet mode excluded stern) modders would pick up the slack. But let's not get there, let's have built in cab mode.

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    Member MBeeching's Avatar
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    Fair enough, the use of virtual cabs on commercial premises was an oversight, though I've never encountered one myself. I appreciate why Zen introduced cabinet codes for FX3 as there are dubious pre-loaded cabinets available.

    Great to hear Stern can still supply parts for those old Data East / Sega tables! Got my eye on a Bally at the moment and certain playfield parts are a major concern as it would be my first real cabinet. I've also got a virtual cab semi-assembled in my kitchen but I can't decide whether to take it further.

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    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBeeching View Post
    Great to hear Stern can still supply parts for those old Data East / Sega tables! Got my eye on a Bally at the moment and certain playfield parts are a major concern as it would be my first real cabinet.
    Only in a last resort, since it isn't cheap. You can contact Planetary Pinball and they will be able to replicate the part(s) for you. Planetary Pinball has a license with Scientific Games to be able reproduce any parts and machines (hence the new production runs on Monster Bash, AFM, and MM) from Williams and Bally.

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    Senior Member Citizen's Avatar
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    Meanwhile there's a Game Plan near me I'd love to pick up but I don't wanna have to search the world if it ever needs anything but the absolute most basic replacement parts.

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    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    Well i geuss its sad farsight wont be making its big come back with stern tables like some of us hoped. But zen does do a better job at recreations. you cant even fanboy out and pretend thats not true no matter how much you love what farsight did. Walking dead other than images on the cabinet has no celebritys pictured on the actual playfeild. No celebrity dmd animations or voices either. A quick replace of the backglass side art and apron stickers would clear up having to pay any actor royalties. I for one dont really care if rick is on the backglass and side, you dont even look at that stuff when playing anyway.

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    Senior Member kimkom's Avatar
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    I'm happy with all the Williams/Bally tables so far but if this means that we have more tables coming such as The Simpsons Pinball Party, Tron Legacy, Ripley's then exciting times are ahead! Or perhaps even the newer Sterns? Wow.

    I do hope that Zen are not making the same mistakes that Farsight made, by spreading themselves too thinly.

    I don't play on mobile but from everything I'm reading, I'm already wishing they would just concentrate on consoles and PC. Add even more tables into the mix then things could quickly start to turn sour, unless Zen significantly invest more resources into the pinball department and shift focus away from stuff like Operencia.

    Any decline in established standards would be a sure fire killer, especially for customers who already followed Farsight.
    Last edited by kimkom; 04-16-2019 at 12:03 AM.

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    Senior Member Citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    you cant even fanboy out and pretend thats not true no matter how much you love what farsight did.
    You'd be surprised how many people I still see on Facebook claiming that TPA has better (some of them even explicitly say "more realistic") physics.

    Some people don't know better. And some people just hate Zen's new physics because they're terrible at pinball and the FX3 Williams tables are harder.

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    Senior Member Firefox2000's Avatar
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    ^^I thought i was a pinball master via PA for all these years, then i recently bought and played the Zen version of some of those tables, i crawled away a broken but a more learned man. lol
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    Senior Member kimkom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You'd be surprised how many people I still see on Facebook claiming that TPA has better (some of them even explicitly say "more realistic") physics.
    I'm not surprised at all. Facebook is full of juveniles

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimkom View Post

    I do hope that Zen are not making the same mistakes that Farsight made, by spreading themselves too thinly.


    Any decline in established standards would be a sure fire killer, especially for customers who already followed Farsight.
    They've said publicly that they'd scale up the pinball division if demand required it. Im not worried about it, if done right it's a cash cow.

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    Senior Member kimkom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomorestalker View Post
    They've said publicly that they'd scale up the pinball division if demand required it. Im not worried about it, if done right it's a cash cow.
    Mel has said as much, that's true. Let's just hope it's done right this time.

    I really can't wait to add to my collection of emulated tables in PFX but I hope Zen can keep pushing the bar higher in terms of standards, as well as producing tables from other manufacturers.

    Any Stern licensed tables my well follow the first batch of licensed Williams tables, once Zen have fully gauged interest and potential ROI.

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    Senior Member Citizen's Avatar
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    Makes me wonder that if Zen starts adding Sterns, if they'll do a 3-pack of High Roller Casino, Sharkey's Shootout and Grand Prix at some point. Being that those and the awful Striker Xtreme are the only unlicensed modern Sterns.

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    Senior Member kimkom's Avatar
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    To be honest, I'd see very little appeal with those tables on the mass market these days.

    Sure, all us forum regulars might want them but I really think Zen need to be aiming for the big hitting licensed tables that can capture a much broader audience. And personally, I'd much rather Zen went that route too.

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    You gotta mix those with a heavy hitter, if there was a deadpool, high roller and grand prix guess what I'm excited to have those two. But as I've echoed on here, I want EVERYTHING all era's styles etc. But I really want to see Radical and riverboat gambler (off stern topic of course) and I really only want riverboat gambler because of that absolutely terrible song.

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    Senior Member msilcommand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomorestalker View Post
    They've said publicly that they'd scale up the pinball division if demand required it. Im not worried about it, if done right it's a cash cow.
    Digital pinball is not a cash cow when you're paying for emulation licenses. Scaling up for more volume just means cutting into revenues. Then you become farsight.

    They need to keep making original tables too, licensed or Zen. That was the bread and butter that made them pretty much the only digital pinball company in history that has been profitable enough to last as long as they have.

    Add to that the fact that they have no real competition to speak of anymore, and you have the potential for them to tank, hard.
    Last edited by msilcommand; 04-16-2019 at 07:42 AM.
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    Senior Member switch3flip's Avatar
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    Ball physics are great and everything looks bright and shiny but flipper physics are lacking severely. Drop catching and live catching is a little too easy in tpa but at least its there. My approach IRL is stop and go, it's infinitely easier IRL compared to zen williams. Funny thing is that steeper angled pins IRL make it eaven easier to catch ball. Obviously not in zen williams. The flippers are the heart of pinball for me, and zen need to improve before they get a pass from me at least.
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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by switch3flip View Post
    The flippers are the heart of pinball for me, and zen need to improve before they get a pass from me at least.
    Funny you should mention that...[REDACTED]

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    Senior Member msilcommand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by switch3flip View Post
    Ball physics are great and everything looks bright and shiny but flipper physics are lacking severely. Drop catching and live catching is a little too easy in tpa but at least its there. My approach IRL is stop and go, it's infinitely easier IRL compared to zen williams. Funny thing is that steeper angled pins IRL make it eaven easier to catch ball. Obviously not in zen williams. The flippers are the heart of pinball for me, and zen need to improve before they get a pass from me at least.
    I see it as a red flag when a company is saying we're gonna be pumping out tables every X amount of months, yet they haven't even completely sussed out the base core physics for emulated table play.

    Add to that the fact that the bread and butter that kept them thriving so long were their original tables (licensed or zen), which they seem to have sidelined in favor of the rabbit hole of licensed emulation. Also add in the fact that they are stretching themselves thin with trying to support mobile, which I doubt is very lucrative, and VR, which may be lucrative in 5-10 more years somehow?

    I'm just not seeing how this ISN'T a recipe for financial decline. It's not like making licensed emulated tables is going to magically dramatically boost their revenue. So, it comes down to whether or not making licensed emulated tables costs them significantly more than what it was costing them to make licensed originals and ZEN originals, because I seriously doubt they will be making much more money off the Williams and Stern tables than they were off of their original stuff.
    Last edited by msilcommand; 04-16-2019 at 08:19 AM.
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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msilcommand View Post
    I see it as a red flag when a company is saying we're gonna be pumping out tables every X amount of months, yet they haven't even completely sussed out the base core physics for emulated table play.

    Add to that the fact that the bread and butter that kept them thriving so long were their original tables (licensed or zen), which they seem to have sidelined in favor of the rabbit hole of licensed emulation. Also add in the fact that they are stretching themselves thin with trying to support mobile, which I doubt is very lucrative; VR, which may be lucrative in 5-10 more years somehow?

    I'm just not seeing how this ISN'T a recipe for financial decline. It's not like making licensed emulated tables is going to magically dramatically boost their revenue. So, it comes down to whether or not making licensed emulated tables costs them significantly more than what it was costing them to make licensed originals and ZEN originals.
    They have an entire division devoted to mobile gaming. Mobile is not taking away from the pinball division, they are separate but then share when needed. I'll see if I can dig up some more info about this to maybe ease your mind. Also, Zen has data from all the other mobile pinball apps they've put out, and I'm sure if it wasn't lucrative, they wouldn't have made it such a priority to have a mobile release as quick as they did. Lord knows they've been collecting just from me with all the video ads I've had to watch while playing the daily challenges.

    I don't get how you think a licensed original table is more bread and butter than an emulated table. Do you have any idea how many more people the Williams tables have brought to the Zen platform? When someone found the download numbers of games on Steam a while back, TPA had over half a million original downloads compared to Zen's 60+ grand. People in this very forum that hated Zen originals in FX2 have said that they not only bought the new Williams stuff, but have been selectively buying originals now too within FX3. You hook people with the nostalgia, and then sell that back catalog!

    It will be trickier for profits when it comes to licensed Williams stuff, same as if they do indeed get Stern, but not if they run with the idea of using the license further to make original tables to go along with those.

    Worrying about Zen expanding and not having proper competition is like people that worried when Amazon was going to sell more than books. They expanded to meet and create demand, and then expanded to create even more demand. So long as a company is willing to reinvest, it's all good. Zen has stated and proven they'll do just that. After all, when TPA first came on the scene, Zen was about the same size studio. They now dwarf FarSight 5:1 with employees.

    Also, regarding core physics still being tweaked...Zen had them 97% dialed in as far as I was concerned, they just needed more feedback from actual users. There's stuff happening in beta right now to further close the gap. FarSight continually changed and tuned tables during its entire run. I'm happy there's a drive to get it right, and with digital pinball, getting it perfect is an unobtainable goal as there simply is no way to perfectly match all the variations in physics a physical machine has, let alone the tactile sensation.
    I'm just sayin'

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    Senior Member Blkthorne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msilcommand View Post
    I see it as a red flag when a company is saying we're gonna be pumping out tables every X amount of months, yet they haven't even completely sussed out the base core physics for emulated table play.

    Add to that the fact that the bread and butter that kept them thriving so long were their original tables (licensed or zen), which they seem to have sidelined in favor of the rabbit hole of licensed emulation. Also add in the fact that they are stretching themselves thin with trying to support mobile, which I doubt is very lucrative, and VR, which may be lucrative in 5-10 more years somehow?

    I'm just not seeing how this ISN'T a recipe for financial decline. It's not like making licensed emulated tables is going to magically dramatically boost their revenue. So, it comes down to whether or not making licensed emulated tables costs them significantly more than what it was costing them to make licensed originals and ZEN originals, because I seriously doubt they will be making much more money off the Williams and Stern tables than they were off of their original stuff.

    I guess the thing for me is all the "fans" of Zen that claim they have abandoned their core audience seem to have selective memory when it comes to fantasy releases, I decided to check my purchases for Zen pinball:

    2013-Pinball FX3 is released along with their Star Wars/Marvel/Zen classic tables etc.
    2014-SW: Heroes Within and The Walking Dead
    2015-Iron & Steel, Portal, Balls of Glory
    2016-SW:Force Awakens, Alien, Marvel's Women of Power and Bethesda
    2017-Universal Classics and Carnivals & Legends
    2018-Jurassic World, SW: Last Jedi and SW: Solo

    If you look at these lists, Zen brought out 2-4 packs a year for fantasy tables so they are still on pace for that this year even with the Williams' releases. People need to calm down and not take it as real tables vs. fantasy tables, they can both coexist.
    Last edited by Blkthorne; 04-16-2019 at 08:36 AM.

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