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Thread: Williams' Collection Volume 5 guesses

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh great, so we're not only at the mercy of them not wanting to go over an E10+ rating, but we're also at the mercy of them not wanting certain terms under the rating.

    That's even worse.
    The bright side to that is that means this pack is it on dmd machines and we get only licensed or Alphanumerics next. Not bad for the first year of Williams Fx3.

    I would gladly push or sacrifice Jack bot and Who Dunnit for faster access to Taxi, Diner, Funhouse and so many others or any licensed games (or Stern??!?) faster.

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    If we are getting alphanumerics, just give me F14 Tomcat, then give MM the newest physics and I will be a happy man.
    Brick to drain, brick to drain, brick to drain.......

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    Member skyway73's Avatar
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    Watching the Twitch stream, Deep was responsible for CV and said he tried to improve the lighting. I thought it was noticeably better, can't wait to try it.

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    Junior Member Sara's Avatar
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    Finally, CV... T_T
    Apparently looks great, and the ability to select your neon color is a surprising little touch to give, considering it's not something utilized in other tables.
    It seems a little silly to have the Ringmaster as the 3D model when he's already an animated toy in addition to that.
    I wonder if he'll change into Voltaire during unmasking in wizard mode.

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    Senior Member zmcvay's Avatar
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    Remember, the ESRB is not an independant regulatory agency. It's part of the ESA, so their interests are with the larger game companies, not the consumer. Their goal is to show they can self-regulate enough to keep government oversight off their backs. So yes, the ESRB will bend over backwards to accommodate lucrative gambling mechanics in something a big publisher like EA puts out, but will still put the hammer down on Zen for showing a slot machine in an E10 game to make it look like they are doing their job.

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    I hope they will keep on improving the physics aswell. At this point how it is now is not bad but it can always get better.
    Were still at the point that you have more control on a real machine then on zens version. For instance it feels like drop catches on a real table are not that hard to do compared to the digital version.

    The guy from spacies arcade seems like a good guy that wants the best physics but watching him play pinball doesnt give you the impression he is good at it. Would be great if they could ask Deadflip or another good pinball player what they think of it and if they got some suggestions too improve it.

    And again im not saying the physics arent good and if you want to lock em in and keep em like this thats fine but I think they can be better. Just my opinion here. I know a lot of guys here were allready happy how the physics were when the first pack got released.
    Last edited by PinJimmy; 12-02-2019 at 01:00 PM.

  7. #407
    Senior Member wolfson's Avatar
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    what a great lot ,December 10th , No Good Gofers , TOTAN , Circus Voltaire . am I bloody happy , you betcha little booties !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbers View Post
    Not sure if anyone guessed that TotaN and Cirqus Voltaire would be in the same pack.
    Nope. Nobody guess that. Its really surprising. Each pack got one big hitter ( MM, AmF, ToM, WW, MB ), seeing two big hitters like Totan and CV is strange, but very welcomed. But now i have lot of doubt we will see Jackbot ( unless release as a Pinbot trilogy? ), Cactus Canyon, perhaps having difficulty finding it, and Who Dunnit which i dont see why its not released yet and not include in this pack, CV would have been a top seller alone with two average title ( example ToM with CPub and Safecracker ).

    Now i really have no clue what pack no.6 will be. But this pack will be very amazing, might enjoy finally NGG.

  9. #409
    Senior Member francis247uk's Avatar
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    Best pack yet, 3 A+ tables imo. Would have thought NGG enhanced would have been an animated Buzz & Budd though, will reserve judgement for the 10th. I personally think Cactus Canyon, Jackbot and WhoDunnit would make a great vol.6 pack - not an amazing pack, but still good nonetheless!

  10. #410
    Senior Member Cloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinJimmy View Post
    I hope they will keep on improving the physics aswell. At this point how it is now is not bad but it can always get better.
    Were still at the point that you have more control on a real machine then on zens version. For instance it feels like drop catches on a real table are not that hard to do compared to the digital version.

    The guy from spacies arcade seems like a good guy that wants the best physics but watching him play pinball doesnt give you the impression he is good at it. Would be great if they could ask Deadflip or another good pinball player what they think of it and if they got some suggestions too improve it.

    And again im not saying the physics arent good and if you want to lock em in and keep em like this thats fine but I think they can be better. Just my opinion here. I know a lot of guys here were allready happy how the physics were when the first pack got released.
    I'm pretty happy with the physics and especially live catches are very doable on Universal Monsters. Even tips passes and flicks to break the balls momentum i.e. prevent it from rolling off the flipper is possible, which was there in Vol 4, but not at all reliable. I'm actually more of the opinion that they slowed the ball down a bit too much and along with that, that they made the ball movement too predictable - compare e.g. the ball being ejected from the scoop on Attack from Mars with Monster Bash. On Monster Bash you can control the ball using the same approach each and every time while on Attack from Mars you have to read what the ball is doing. Watching real table play i.e. PAPA videos, the biggest struggle is to get the ball under control. That used to be the case on the previous Volumes, but on Universal Monsters it has become predicatable and easy (relatively speaking). On Creature I can live catch the ball just about each time on the right flipper from the bumpers. Loosing the ball comes from your own mistakes, rather than from reacting incorrectly to slight variation in bounce etc. It feels a whole lot more like Zen physics predictability now.

    Either way, it is a moot point because it seem like Zen has settled on the Universal Monsters physics for Vol 5. It is fine and I'm still looking forward to the tables, I'm just a bit concerned that the challenge will be a bit diminished compared to the first Volumes.
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    Senior Member rehtroboi40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by francis247uk View Post
    Best pack yet, 3 A+ tables imo. Would have thought NGG enhanced would have been an animated Buzz & Budd though, will reserve judgement for the 10th. I personally think Cactus Canyon, Jackbot and WhoDunnit would make a great vol.6 pack - not an amazing pack, but still good nonetheless!
    I especially think Cactus Canyon would benefit the most from the Zen treatment-since it's such a rare table IRL and got digitized early in the run of TPA. If it does hopefully Zen can include the rare "complete" rom. Not holding my breath though!

    I've been playing a lot more PFX3 lately-MB and CFTBL were very well done IMO. I'm still a little put off by Road Show as the ramps are much harder to hit in the FX version than they are IRL. I'm excited to see all three (CV, TOTAN, and NGG) in the next pack. The former two were said to be real bears for FarSight to handle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    I'm pretty happy with the physics and especially live catches are very doable on Universal Monsters. Even tips passes and flicks to break the balls momentum i.e. prevent it from rolling off the flipper is possible, which was there in Vol 4, but not at all reliable. I'm actually more of the opinion that they slowed the ball down a bit too much and along with that, that they made the ball movement too predictable - compare e.g. the ball being ejected from the scoop on Attack from Mars with Monster Bash. On Monster Bash you can control the ball using the same approach each and every time while on Attack from Mars you have to read what the ball is doing. Watching real table play i.e. PAPA videos, the biggest struggle is to get the ball under control. That used to be the case on the previous Volumes, but on Universal Monsters it has become predicatable and easy (relatively speaking). On Creature I can live catch the ball just about each time on the right flipper from the bumpers. Loosing the ball comes from your own mistakes, rather than from reacting incorrectly to slight variation in bounce etc. It feels a whole lot more like Zen physics predictability now.

    Either way, it is a moot point because it seem like Zen has settled on the Universal Monsters physics for Vol 5. It is fine and I'm still looking forward to the tables, I'm just a bit concerned that the challenge will be a bit diminished compared to the first Volumes.
    I understand that you want it be a real challenge but what if the real tables are easier and more predictable then their digital versions? For example check out PAPA video of Road Show. He is a good player but look how much easier it is to control the ball on the real table and then play the digital version.

    Its probably comes down to what people want out of the digital game. Do they want it as realistic as possible to simulate the real table or make it harder and more challenging cause its digital version and you play it more often.

  13. #413
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Cactus Canyon Continued is a fan made ROM based on notes from the developers. It never existed even in the design phase, so not sure Zen will be able to do it, other than if they programmed it themselves. It’s a real bummer, cuz CCC is so much fun and better in every way than basic CC.

    As for comparing digital to PAPA vids, let’s not forget that EVERY table plays different from each other. I was regularly playing 4 different Creature machines and they all had their unique quirks. At a certain point (and be happy if it was now), Zen needs to lock physics down and apply then to the back catalog so all WMS feel in sync. If you forever tweak, you end up with TPA and inconsistency across the collection that only highlight the early flaws.

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    Member Scared Stiff's Avatar
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    Very excited for this pack! Two of my favorites and one...eh....well I will try it a few times. But not looking forward to collecting tickets for a table (NGG) I care nothing about.

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    Ye but as you notice they are not locking it down and not bringing these physics to the other packs. So they might aswell keep on tweaking and see what the response is. And then maybe over two years when they finally decide to adjust the older tables in pinball fx4 they can pick the right physics And apply it.
    Last edited by PinJimmy; 12-02-2019 at 04:30 PM.

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    Senior Member Cloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinJimmy View Post
    I understand that you want it be a real challenge but what if the real tables are easier and more predictable then their digital versions? For example check out PAPA video of Road Show. He is a good player but look how much easier it is to control the ball on the real table and then play the digital version.

    Its probably comes down to what people want out of the digital game. Do they want it as realistic as possible to simulate the real table or make it harder and more challenging cause its digital version and you play it more often.
    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    As for comparing digital to PAPA vids, let’s not forget that EVERY table plays different from each other. I was regularly playing 4 different Creature machines and they all had their unique quirks. At a certain point (and be happy if it was now), Zen needs to lock physics down and apply then to the back catalog so all WMS feel in sync. If you forever tweak, you end up with TPA and inconsistency across the collection that only highlight the early flaws.
    Maybe it is because I'm Afrikaans speaking and English is my second language but nobody seems to understand my basic point ;-). Before Universal Monsters the game was too difficult (on Classic Arcade that I mostly play), but not because of the ball speed being too fast, after Universal Monsters the game is too easy compared to real life because the ball speed has been slowed down too much and the gameplay is too predicatable (relatively speaking off course). Looking at MB, in real life going for Frankenstein is taking your life in your own hands and you can't even think about doing it from the right, in the game it is a relatively non issue. Another example is dealing with the ball being ejected from the scoop, in real life it is a struggle to bring the ball under control, while in the game you can safely rinse and repeat the same trick. Here is another example showing how much of a struggle it is to bring the ball under control in the real game... none such issues in the game. In Creature from the Black Lagoon you hit the snack bar on demand from the right flipper while in the real table it is too risky. So yes, I want it as realistic as possible compared to the real deal and at the moment they have made it too predictable and controllable relative to the real thing. I really enjoyed the challenge for Ruler of the Universe on Classic Arcade but that is not realistic and is way too hard - only 6 players have managed to beat it on Classic Arcade and none on tournament.

    I fully agree that they need to lock it down and update the previous tables (really looking forward to MM and AfM), but while they have not done so yet, there is an opportunity to make the points like I did above so that Zen / Deep can either agree or disagree and tweak the physics some more.
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    Senior Member Hinph's Avatar
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    This is a killer table pack. Very pleased.

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    Senior Member kimkom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    Maybe it is because I'm Afrikaans speaking and English is my second language but nobody seems to understand my basic point ;-). Before Universal Monsters the game was too difficult (on Classic Arcade that I mostly play), but not because of the ball speed being too fast, after Universal Monsters the game is too easy compared to real life because the ball speed has been slowed down too much and the gameplay is too predicatable (relatively speaking off course). Looking at MB, in real life going for Frankenstein is taking your life in your own hands and you can't even think about doing it from the right, in the game it is a relatively non issue. Another example is dealing with the ball being ejected from the scoop, in real life it is a struggle to bring the ball under control, while in the game you can safely rinse and repeat the same trick. Here is another example showing how much of a struggle it is to bring the ball under control in the real game... none such issues in the game. In Creature from the Black Lagoon you hit the snack bar on demand from the right flipper while in the real table it is too risky. So yes, I want it as realistic as possible compared to the real deal and at the moment they have made it too predictable and controllable relative to the real thing. I really enjoyed the challenge for Ruler of the Universe on Classic Arcade but that is not realistic and is way too hard - only 6 players have managed to beat it on Classic Arcade and none on tournament.

    I fully agree that they need to lock it down and update the previous tables (really looking forward to MM and AfM), but while they have not done so yet, there is an opportunity to make the points like I did above so that Zen / Deep can either agree or disagree and tweak the physics some more.
    Cloda, I understand the point you are making.

    Perhaps Deep will make some further little tweaks so that the ‘ease of control’ will be a little less predictable again.

    Then, please can we just lock it down and apply across all WMS tables.

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    That’s a great pack. I love how for weeks we’ve all been so sure it was either going to be all Williams or all Bally in the pack then Zen changes it up. Every time we think we’ve got the pattern down of release schedules or how the challenges work they tweet something. Drives me crazy but at the end of the day the games themselves are rock solid. Can’t wait to play these!!!

  20. #420
    Senior Member Cloda's Avatar
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    The points I'm trying to make about the physics are moot now because Zen explained in their stream last night (which I only now watched), that they kept the physics the same for this new pack and that this is what they are pushing to implement in the previous Volumes. I made my peace now and am celebrating Zen and Deep's amazing work. I'll keep on playing because it is still awesome and now that Zen made it an easier game, I'll get a chance to play some other games again
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    Quote Originally Posted by suffocater View Post
    If we are getting alphanumerics, just give me F14 Tomcat, then give MM the newest physics and I will be a happy man.
    Yes, the all the Williams tables need the new physics as soon as possible, I don't see why it's taking so long. I played an hour of Creature the other night and then jumped into Attack from Mars, the difference in physics is night and day, such a great improvement that I almost don't even want to play the older Williams packs now.

    From the last twitch stream it doesn't even sound like they started on implementing the new physics to the old tables. Zen is really slow at fixing issues and updating old tables, they seem to just want to push forward with more releases, which is fine, but they really need to support their old tables. I'm happy they were able to sort out the Monster Bash performance issues so quickly though.
    Last edited by Moosebox; 12-03-2019 at 06:25 AM.

  22. #422
    Member skyway73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moosebox View Post
    ...I played an hour of Creature the other night and then jumped into Attack from Mars, the difference in physics is night and day, such a great improvement that I almost don't even want to play the older Williams packs now.
    Yep, that's how I feel. Struggling to enjoy the older packs now, desperate for them to be updated!

  23. #423
    Member Scared Stiff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyway73 View Post
    Yep, that's how I feel. Struggling to enjoy the older packs now, desperate for them to be updated!
    I still like the older ones, though I must say between the physics and lighting, Creature has quickly become my favorite table in Williams collection. Which considering that Creature is a game that I never liked in the arcade, and never liked in TPA, that’s really saying something! Never would have thought that possible. But AfM and MM will always be right up there too for me. Both arcade and digital.

    Although, if they ever release long wanted games for me which were never commercially digitized before like Flash, Vector, or Hotdoggin my favorites could change! I want to see those made so bad!
    Last edited by Scared Stiff; 12-03-2019 at 08:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    Maybe it is because I'm Afrikaans speaking and English is my second language but nobody seems to understand my basic point ;-). Before Universal Monsters the game was too difficult (on Classic Arcade that I mostly play), but not because of the ball speed being too fast, after Universal Monsters the game is too easy compared to real life because the ball speed has been slowed down too much and the gameplay is too predicatable (relatively speaking off course). Looking at MB, in real life going for Frankenstein is taking your life in your own hands and you can't even think about doing it from the right, in the game it is a relatively non issue. Another example is dealing with the ball being ejected from the scoop, in real life it is a struggle to bring the ball under control, while in the game you can safely rinse and repeat the same trick. Here is another example showing how much of a struggle it is to bring the ball under control in the real game... none such issues in the game. In Creature from the Black Lagoon you hit the snack bar on demand from the right flipper while in the real table it is too risky. So yes, I want it as realistic as possible compared to the real deal and at the moment they have made it too predictable and controllable relative to the real thing. I really enjoyed the challenge for Ruler of the Universe on Classic Arcade but that is not realistic and is way too hard - only 6 players have managed to beat it on Classic Arcade and none on tournament.

    I fully agree that they need to lock it down and update the previous tables (really looking forward to MM and AfM), but while they have not done so yet, there is an opportunity to make the points like I did above so that Zen / Deep can either agree or disagree and tweak the physics some more.
    Cloda has a point here and I agree, also he backs it up with videos. The unpredictability is what makes Pinball special, which is one of the main variables as ball speed is also, that creates the feeling of tension in the air (of losing the ball) and thrill (of struggling to control the table) as it was obvious in Deadflip's Real vs. Zen's arcade table, where he was in tension playing the real table but relaxed playing Zen's version. If you take those away then you are not playing pinball -or at least you don't play the real tables' pinball and you could stick to Zen fantasy physics-, and I agree that Deep has to look into it a bit more.
    Problem is I don't have the Universal pack so I can't judge how it plays in Tournament Setup, as I believe this is the mode where the setting that controls the unpredictability inside the ROM is being used.

    Regarding the AfM gameplay (and MM, FT, fall also in that category), although I also prefer the flipper physics of Vol.4 and on and I want them in those tables as well, going back to it is a very refreshing "feeling alive " experience like a soft breeze, due to the speed of the ball and the unpredictability, a thing that I'm very missing from Vol.3 and on. It just feels like the real beast as it was designed to be against the "been there-done that" feel of every new table after Vol.2. If I had to make a compromise though to please everyone, I'd choose ToM & WH2O 's physics + speed, WH2O is incredibly well done, there's no need for further nerfs.

    When talking about physics we should take in consideration the ball speed on the one hand, which is relevant to slope and friction, and which is easier to "physically model" and on the other hand the "material constants" of every item in the table with which the ball impacts, which are responsible for the momentum, angular momentum and impact (elastic/semi-elastic) in the laws of physics. It's the latter that should be tweaked and being more physically correct and not the ball speed. Nerfing the ball speed is just an easy way "hiding" the lack of implementing real physics that obey to the physic laws, as it was the case with TPA and nobody wants that, it failed.
    Last edited by pinfan7; 12-10-2019 at 05:05 PM.

  25. #425
    Senior Member Cloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinfan7 View Post
    Cloda has a point here and I agree, also he backs it up with videos. The unpredictability is what makes Pinball special, which is one of the main variables as ball speed is also, that creates the feeling of tension in the air (of losing the ball) and thrill (of struggling to control the table) as it was obvious in Deadflip's Real vs. Zen's arcade table, where he was in tension playing the real table but relaxed playing Zen's version. If you take those away then you are not playing pinball -or at least you don't play the real tables' pinball and you could stick to Zen fantasy physics-, and I agree that Deep has to look into it a bit more.
    Problem is I don't have the Universal pack so I can't judge how it plays in Tournament Setup, as I believe this is the mode where the setting that controls the unpredictability inside the ROM is being used.

    Regarding the AfM gameplay (and MM, FT, fall also in that category), although I also prefer the flipper physics of Vol.4 and on and I want them in those tables as well, going back to it is a very refreshing "feeling alive " experience like a soft breeze, due to the speed of the ball and the unpredictability, a thing that I'm very missing from Vol.3 and on. It just feels like the real beast as it was designed to be against the "been there-done that" feel of every new table after Vol.2. If I had to make a compromise though to please everyone, I'd choose ToM & Whitewater's physics + speed, Whitewater is incredibly well done, there's no need for further nerfs.

    When talking about physics we should take in consideration the ball speed on the one hand, which is relevant to slope and friction, and which is easier to "physically model" and on the other hand the "material constants" of every item in the table with which the ball impacts, which are responsible for the momentum, angular momentum and impact (elastic/semi-elastic) in the laws of physics. It's the latter that should be tweaked and being more physically correct and not the ball speed. Nerfing the ball speed is just an easy way "hiding" the lack of implementing real physics that obey to the physic laws, as it was the case with TPA and nobody wants that, it failed.
    I've been playing FX2 since 2010 (and FX1 before that) and thoroughly enjoyed it for quite a couple of years until it became too easy and ball time became too long (my longest game was 15 hours on Paranormal ). The Williams tables on Classic Arcade / Tournament will never play that easy but my game time on e.g. Creature (Classic Arcade) is creeping up towards an hour again and in the FX2 days I would have pushed on until I exhausted the table, but I don't have the desire anymore. That is basically where my concern comes in with the easier physics but I accept I'm in the minority. I thought Zen had the perfect setup with Zen physics for the casual crowd and Classic Arcade / Tournament for the players wanting a recreated experience; that is also why I'm so vocal about Classic Arcade / Tournament playing easier now and why I'm surprised that there are only a few players that are concerned about it. But yes, I made my peace now and am celebrating Zen and Deep's amazing work.
    XBox One Gamertag - PinStratsDan
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