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Thread: Is TPA alone enough for you, or are you also buying into Zenís Williams app?

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    I wasn't pleased about hearing Williams and Bally going to Zen, but they definitely have stepped up the table's physics. The tables look better, but the massive improvement is the game plan itself. So yup, effectively buying the blu-ray even though I bought the DVD.

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    I would think the answer’s no, but it’d increase my interest — are Zen Williams tables purchases cross platform? That being, buy on PS4, also play on mobile?

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrdealByFire View Post
    I would think the answerís no, but itíd increase my interest ó are Zen Williams tables purchases cross platform? That being, buy on PS4, also play on mobile?
    No, there is no cross-buy. Mobile is its own deal anyways, as you can earn the tables for free. Iím thinking I might make a video comparing the two mobile versions just to show how vastly different they are. Also, you can play Fish Tales for free on all platforms. Play it in Classic Single Player with Arcade physics and then pop in the TPA version, and then donít guess about there being any reason to repurchase. Add in the new flipper physics on Road Show, White Water, and Hurricane and it becomes a massive no brainer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    No, there is no cross-buy. Mobile is its own deal anyways, as you can earn the tables for free. I’m thinking I might make a video comparing the two mobile versions just to show how vastly different they are. Also, you can play Fish Tales for free on all platforms. Play it in Classic Single Player with Arcade physics and then pop in the TPA version, and then don’t guess about there being any reason to repurchase. Add in the new flipper physics on Road Show, White Water, and Hurricane and it becomes a massive no brainer.
    I’ll probably at least stick to mobile for now. The game looks and feels great. Not a huge fan of it being more difficult to nudge, but the game itself feels easier to play. Pretty nice.

    I chose Medieval Madness as my free first table on Williams Pinball, then played it in TPA. There really is a significant difference. TPA feels more like a cheap emulation with a very floaty ball. Zen’s ball feels like it has weight to it, and the flippers feel “snappier”.

    Despite all of that, I really dig having so many tables in one spot in TPA. I may get the Zen tables as they go on sale on PS4. (One pack right now is 30% off on PSN for anyone interested.)
    Last edited by OrdealByFire; 07-03-2019 at 06:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OrdealByFire View Post
    I’ll probably at least stick to mobile for now. The game looks and feels great. Not a huge fan of it being more difficult to nudge, but the game itself feels easier to play. Pretty nice.

    I chose Medieval Madness as my free first table on Williams Pinball, then played it in TPA. There really is a significant difference. TPA feels more like a cheap emulation with a very floaty ball. Zen’s ball feels like it has weight to it, and the flippers feel “snappier”.

    Despite all of that, I really dig having so many tables in one spot in TPA. I may get the Zen tables as they go on sale on PS4. (One pack right now is 30% off on PSN for anyone interested.)
    Since you are going the mobile route, you might want to give my thread here http://www.digitalpinballfans.com/sh...ata-Collection a look as it will help in the frustration department over collecting and grinding. You'll also maybe wanna watch my YouTube vids on defeating each challenge for every table, which I've also got a thread going for here http://www.digitalpinballfans.com/sh...trategy-Videos

    You're feeling the difference just with regular Zen physics too. The Pro physics (as known on mobile) incorporate better rubber reaction, ball spin, and flipper control. Unfortunately Zen has locked that away until you either pay for the upgrade or fully unlock a table, which as a newby to the app is going to take you a very long time. Still, I'm here doing everything I can to get people to appreciate the app for what it is and get the most out of it without ever having to spend a dime (or at least spending as little as possible).

    And yeah, waiting on Zen to put stuff on sale is always a good call if you aren't in a rush to play.
    I'm just sayin'

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    I can't get fx3 working properly on an iPad Air, so the answer is no.

    I wouldn't mind POSSIBLY buying a few tables that don't overlap with my TPA collection for my laptop. This is predicated on finding a controller with buttons with little to zero lag/latency. It's unplayable with keyboard controls of any kind.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanpinball View Post
    I can't get fx3 working properly on an iPad Air, so the answer is no.

    I wouldn't mind POSSIBLY buying a few tables that don't overlap with my TPA collection for my laptop. This is predicated on finding a controller with buttons with little to zero lag/latency. It's unplayable with keyboard controls of any kind.
    How old is your iPad (and what iOS is it running?) And what kind of laptop are you using?

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    iPad Air gen4, latest iOS 12.x, 2014 13macbook pro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rehtroboi40 View Post
    I'd be surprised to see any of the tables you've mentioned in PFX3. That's one reason I'll keep TPA as long as I can. The other being Zen screwing up tables that TPA got right. Sure, Road Show and White Water look so much better than TPA, but Zen has "Zaccaria'd" the ramps making them impossible to hit. Also, I'll stick to WH2O in TPA because Zen's mistreatment of the music gives me a splitting headache. I don't think Zen will fix that.

    I do wish Farsight would add some more Gottliebs and Premiers, but I think TPA is over for good. But I'm still happy for the tables they did bring and I'm pleased that I snagged them all before the licenses expired. Since I'll be getting a new computer soon, I'll take the one I'm using offline so that way I'll always have access to TPA in it's final form, at least until this computer goes down once and for all.
    FX3 has introduced new problems in it's own right which are just as troublesome as the problems on TPA. Based on my limited play so far, I have a hard time regarding FX3 as a "keeper."

    I think the only solution is VP.

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    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    zen white water ramps are much easier than in real life. trust me, i play white water all the time, my avatar is even me playing it lol. farsight just made it easier i guess. but i totally agree on a bunch of the made points, and espeshially agree that every single pinball video game has at least a handful of annoyances. i say just play whatever you have fun playing, i play them all.

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    The difference between how Zen does their ramps and FarSight did theirs is of note.

    In essence FarSight's engine never had a way for the ball to travel up and down in 3D space. Jared explained it in our podcast at one time that it is nothing more than a layering of planes, where the ball gets 'transferred' from one to the other but technically is still on the same z axis. We always referred to it as 'vacuum' ramps because it was noticeable how the ball seemed to get pulled to complete its travel despite visibly not having enough momentum to do so. Later FarSight got better at hiding this behavior, putting in conditions that would have the ball roll 'back down' a ramp. This is also why their lighting only bloomed out horizontally and not vertically. A lot of ball movement used to also be on 'railroads', in that it had the exact same path of travel every single time when dropping from certain locations. I used to exploit this on Ripleys all the time, where there was a sequence of the ball coming out of the right eject that had 5 points of contact the ball bounced against and would land on your extended flipper precisely at the end each time without fail. I showed this to the guys one time while visiting the studio, and they couldn't believe it. Eventually they put in some randomization, but that sequence of bounces is still there, just not every time.

    I can't say for sure if Zen has z axis movement either. I have seen the ball jump before, but it's rare so might be tied into other actions. What Zen does have is surface tension and ball friction as their ball legitimately spins (FarSight only simulated the look of it spinning). I suspect the issue with Road Show, that left ramp in particular, is the same thing that eventually got fixed on Medieval Madness' dragon ramp. There was too much friction with the plastic surface, so the ball spin over engaged with it, preventing it from traveling around when it made contact with the side walls of the ramp. The fix seems to be them lowering that surface tension, thus making the ball glide on past. I'll try and remember to bring this up again next time I'm lucky enough to chat with Deep.

    What's always been funny to me is I have never played two different machines of the same title that played identical. When talking about machines that are 30 years old, that's really the case, even when they've been fully restored. Machines on location? How many times have we played one with weak flippers or broken toys that you simply have to adapt to. I watched a vid featuring some pinball savant who said he uses the first ball to find the obvious deficiencies of a machine and then just shoots for what works properly. He even dominated a machine with one bad flipper by making adjustments to his play. When people say Road Show is "unplayable" because you can't shoot the back ramp from anything but a trapped ball, they're being stubborn. I'm not saying it's ideal, but that shot isn't even of huge importance (and again it is makeable from a trapped ball).

    And I still don't know what people are saying regarding WH2O's music. Anyone have an A/B comparison to post?
    I'm just sayin'

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    It's ironic that playing FX3 has made me more aware of the deficiencies of FX3 as well as of TPA.

    For example, on the new TPA Star Trek, the side ramp shot for warp is so easy, it allows for a ton of shots that should roll back to be completed anyway. I was able to rack up very high scores just making this shot over and over again. It was weird watching the ball lose momentum then continue up the ramp anyway.

    The actual table is so much more difficult they are literally two different tables. The ball on the real table travels much faster, and every shot is leagues more difficult. It almost feels like you're playing on a miniature table, especially compared to oversized tables as STTNG.

    Both are fun, but farsigh is either not testing games thoroughly before release, or they don't have the resources to actually correct these types of problems? I will say sound quality seems to have been improved significantly this time around.

    As far as RedTed, it's very difficult to hit the center grill? from the left flipper with the ball at rest. It defaults to the lane shot between red and ted. There are still significant problems with the physics on FX3.

    Playing fishtales and redted on fx3, it seems it defaults to ball spin preventing completion of ramp shots more often than not. In other words, FX3 has overcompensated making these shots "too hard" whereas they are clearly too easy on TPA.

    TPA is characterized by a "floaty" ball feel reminiscent of an air hockey game, whereas FX3 overemphasizes loss of momentum from ball spin and resistance traveling across and along wood grain. They've gone too far in the opposite direction it seems.

    FX3 does a better job capturing the actual sound of flipper action though, and generally has better sound quality overall. Neither game IMO actually feels like playing an actual table. It's too bad that a new, different and in some ways, slightly better iteration of virtual pinball leaves me more discerning, and therefore less able to enjoy both apps!
    Last edited by meanpinball; 03-26-2020 at 11:59 AM.

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    You could always just play using Zen physics instead of Classic Arcade Physics, as then the play is easier while still retaining all the better visual and sound qualities!

    FarSight did do beta tests, but the builds were never ďfinishedĒ for us to give final notes on. Weíd provide a laundry list of issues, many they already knew about, usually seeing a last build a few days before itíd be released. Often we wouldnít even see the DX11 build, just DX9, but they didnít even use the same code so bugs would show up in one and not the other. It was quite frustrating as then we testers would be accused by the community of not being thorough. Even worse, new tables often broke aspects of other tables for some reason, but their simply wasnít enough time to go through each table every time a new beta came out.

    Zenís betas are much closer to finished releases, with us only having to give minimal suggestions. I try play testing all 3 physics modes, all the challenges, looking for little details that seem off. Problem is, my memory of the actual machines (Iíve played nearly all of TPA in real life) is often clouded by my digital pin experiences. Thatís how things like the ramp on Road Show can slip by us. At some point of testing I go back and play the TPA versions, and every time come away thinking Zen has improved upon it every time, regardless of flaws.

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    I must admit, comparing R/T back to back on FX3 vs TPA, FX3 looks really nice. Unfortunately, TPA look so flat and cartoonish.

    OTOH, TPA runs properly on my iPad Air meaning it's a lot more fun to play still compared to FX3's R/T on the iPad.

    The audio for TPA sounds like it was recorded directly from the speaker of an actual table. It's pretty bad. Did FX3 obtain the original audio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meanpinball View Post
    I must admit, comparing R/T back to back on FX3 vs TPA, FX3 looks really nice. Unfortunately, TPA look so flat and cartoonish.

    OTOH, TPA runs properly on my iPad Air meaning it's a lot more fun to play still compared to FX3's R/T on the iPad.

    The audio for TPA sounds like it was recorded directly from the speaker of an actual table. It's pretty bad. Did FX3 obtain the original audio.
    TPA could've grabbed the music etc from the ROM but chose not to. They felt recording from the speakers was more "authentic".

    "You've got an arm like a wet rag!" - The Dummy, Hurricane (Williams, 1991)
    "Ace of Clubs?!" - Bride of Pin*Bot, Jack*Bot (Williams, 1995)
    "You have been terminated. Have a nice day!" - Candy 2000, Safe Cracker (Williams, 1996)

    Wizard Goals remaining: Safe Cracker 26 [Unique] Tokens (19/26 collected); F-14 250K Launch Bonus; Frankie 150M Creature Jackpot, Complete CREATURE

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    It really wasn't much of an issue until I played a couple of FX3 tables and noticed how much better the sound quality is.

    In retrospect, its probably for the better that Zen acquired the license (by hook or by crook I suppose).

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    Quote Originally Posted by EldarOfSuburbia View Post
    TPA could've grabbed the music etc from the ROM but chose not to. They felt recording from the speakers was more "authentic".

    Did Farsight actually say that at some point?

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    Senior Member Rayder's Avatar
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    I tend to prefer TPA simply because there are more recreations in the app than what Zen has now. I figure it will be a long time before Zen hits 100 real-life table recreations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbers View Post
    Did Farsight actually say that at some point?
    I believe so, yes. They had the tables physically on location, after all. It was a conscious decision to not emulate the sound.

    "You've got an arm like a wet rag!" - The Dummy, Hurricane (Williams, 1991)
    "Ace of Clubs?!" - Bride of Pin*Bot, Jack*Bot (Williams, 1995)
    "You have been terminated. Have a nice day!" - Candy 2000, Safe Cracker (Williams, 1996)

    Wizard Goals remaining: Safe Cracker 26 [Unique] Tokens (19/26 collected); F-14 250K Launch Bonus; Frankie 150M Creature Jackpot, Complete CREATURE

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    I was trying to find the podcast we did with Norman Stepansky (TPA audio engineer) that addressed this, but it was prior to our YouTube days. He went into it with us though, that they had tried a few different methods of recording. Ultimately though they couldn't go straight off the ROM because it would lose sync with the game over periods of time. Centaur is the table that gave him the most fits with this. For Firepower II he actually recorded every single sound variation for the bonus count and then assembled them, a painstaking process of over 400 variations.

    A lot of the choices FarSight made with TPA came down to saving space. They wanted one master build of a table from which they could port it over to all the platforms they had to deliver to. Obviously mobile was where the compromises needed to be made most, but every platform took its hits. I believe PS4 users had and still do terrible sound issues that weren't there at the start but once introduced, never went away.

    If you ever wonder just how different the audio is between TPA and Zen, load up Safe Cracker. It is such a noticeably dynamic difference between the two.
    I'm just sayin'

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    As far as centaur, wow, what an addicting and fun game!

    However, it also featured the most ridiculously unrealistic physics of any TPA simulation I've played. The ball would drain, hit that bumper pin at the bottom and bounce right back up into play as if a magnet had lifted it!

    Again, so much fun though. TPA still has a lot of fun, playable tables.

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    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanpinball View Post
    As far as centaur, wow, what an addicting and fun game!

    However, it also featured the most ridiculously unrealistic physics of any TPA simulation I've played. The ball would drain, hit that bumper pin at the bottom and bounce right back up into play as if a magnet had lifted it!

    Again, so much fun though. TPA still has a lot of fun, playable tables.
    Well part of that was the as mentioned railroads for balls. The same kind of thing can be noticed on Medieval Madness with the gate before the catapult. I suspect this bit of behavior is no coincidence with the scripting they were using for gates. Now I agree the physics were rather easy with Centaur, I did play a real machine that once I understood when to nudge, I could get the ball back onto the playfield repeatedly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shutyertrap View Post
    I was trying to find the podcast we did with Norman Stepansky (TPA audio engineer) that addressed this, but it was prior to our YouTube days. He went into it with us though, that they had tried a few different methods of recording. Ultimately though they couldn't go straight off the ROM because it would lose sync with the game over periods of time. Centaur is the table that gave him the most fits with this. For Firepower II he actually recorded every single sound variation for the bonus count and then assembled them, a painstaking process of over 400 variations.

    A lot of the choices FarSight made with TPA came down to saving space. They wanted one master build of a table from which they could port it over to all the platforms they had to deliver to. Obviously mobile was where the compromises needed to be made most, but every platform took its hits. I believe PS4 users had and still do terrible sound issues that weren't there at the start but once introduced, never went away.

    If you ever wonder just how different the audio is between TPA and Zen, load up Safe Cracker. It is such a noticeably dynamic difference between the two.
    Tried googling to see if I could find the right podcast. Found wrong one but was interesting to listen to.

    https://shoutengine.com/BlahCadePodc...tepansky-49608

    With statement at about 11 minutes that the intention was to update code on newer Stern tables such as Ghostbusters - large code update for that last year, nowt in TPA (or SPA), did it ever get any code updates in TPA/SPA after its original release? Norman really, really liked pinball then (and saying "right" a lot), and mentioning season 8 was in the dark himself at that point of there not being a season 8.

    Just started to listen to https://shoutengine.com/BlahCadePodc...nds-hard-39143 think this may be the right one about the sound recording.

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    Senior Member trash80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbers View Post
    Tried googling to see if I could find the right podcast. Found wrong one but was interesting to listen to.

    https://shoutengine.com/BlahCadePodc...tepansky-49608

    With statement at about 11 minutes that the intention was to update code on newer Stern tables such as Ghostbusters - large code update for that last year, nowt in TPA (or SPA), did it ever get any code updates in TPA/SPA after its original release? Norman really, really liked pinball then (and saying "right" a lot), and mentioning season 8 was in the dark himself at that point of there not being a season 8.

    Just started to listen to https://shoutengine.com/BlahCadePodc...nds-hard-39143 think this may be the right one about the sound recording.
    No, they never did any code updates.

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    I looked back, couldnít find another Norman interview. I used to get phone calls from him and weíd talk shop, so I might have confused one of those conversations for an actual podcast.

    Itís rather amusing though listening back to some of those podcasts with us being super optimistic after having visited the studio or seen the guys at a convention. The sad part is how much either never came to fruition or was not technically possible for FarSight but obviously is for Zen. If you dig way back, youíll find our interview with Bobby Bob-omb, then community manager for Zen. Talk about a different time!

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