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Thread: The Pinball Show

  1. #26
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    Inauthentic announcement of upcoming announcements. Tell me about new tables ffs.

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    Senior Member kimkom's Avatar
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    Episode 2 is up, with focus on Star Wars VR:


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    Senior Member trash80's Avatar
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    With the way that Star Wars VR is being announced, it seems that the two new Star Wars tables may NOT be coming to Pinball FX 3, or at least not until after April 29th.

    "Star Wars Pinball VR launches April 29 with eight amazing tables: The Mandalorian and Star Wars Classic Collectibles – two tables never released anywhere else before – are joined by six
    remastered favorites, including Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, Star Wars Episode V: The
    Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, Rogue One: A Star Wars Story,
    Star Wars Rebels, and Masters of the Force."

    RIP FX3...

  4. #29
    Senior Member joeblow's Avatar
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    Thumbs up for the PSVR version of the new tables. I'm in on day one.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Pinballwiz45b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash80 View Post
    With the way that Star Wars VR is being announced, it seems that the two new Star Wars tables may NOT be coming to Pinball FX 3, or at least not until after April 29th.

    "Star Wars Pinball VR launches April 29 with eight amazing tables: The Mandalorian and Star Wars Classic Collectibles – two tables never released anywhere else before – are joined by six
    remastered favorites, including Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, Star Wars Episode V: The
    Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, Rogue One: A Star Wars Story,
    Star Wars Rebels, and Masters of the Force."

    RIP FX3...
    They listed Pinball FX and Star Wars VR on their Collectibles table. So yeah, pretty much confirms FX3 is no longer getting new tables.

  6. #31
    Senior Member Dok5555555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinballwiz45b View Post
    They listed Pinball FX and Star Wars VR on their Collectibles table. So yeah, pretty much confirms FX3 is no longer getting new tables.
    I hope that's not true. Otherwise it might be a long time before we get to play any new tables (aside from VR, which I don't have) since the new PFX might not be out for awhile. I'd really like to play the new Star Wars tables on my Switch.

  7. #32
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    Sry to hear that I watched the Show and it seems they really kicked FX3. I hope they can survive with this few possible sells, cause I don't have VR Equipment and don't buy it now, I know many people who can't zse VR cause of medical problems, the Player base is limited to Playstation and PC only, means lesser and lesser possible customers, last but not least this few possible customers need also be in the small group of being SW Fan and Pinball Fan and VR User. Don't know who makes Marketing questions there.

    Saying that they come to Pinball fX isn't helpful cause they don't have even have something to show of it means it isn't more then planning the Roadmap

  8. #33
    Senior Member Hinph's Avatar
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    Star Wars Pinball VR is rad and I am buying it day one... but the Williams/Bally tables are coming to VR eventually too, right?... Right?!

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    played a ton of pinball fx2 VR and it looks like they used eh same room environments2 as a template and are adding trophy collectibles. all i ever heard from the vr community is less flash and more tables..so zen is doing the opposite...great
    since they left the vr version of fx2 stagnating for years.. i wouldn't bother with this till after we see if its a one off or going to be adding more tables regularly..
    the other primary issue is the horrible arcade physics of the old games compared to their new simulator physics.. in VR is worse cuz it feels all wrong..
    with VPX VR advancing so far now and with the vr front ends working .. i'm not sure how popular this will be..if the vr tables have better physics and can be bought in the pinball fx game (i suspect its the non vr versions only) maybe
    but having all the tables broken up into their own vr game sucks..you want all your tables in the same gui ..

  10. #35
    Senior Member curtis's Avatar
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    I'm generally excited about pinball news, but this has been very disappointing from Zen. VR has no interest for me. I'd much prefer new table releases and better cabinet support. Their announcements are just about useless fluff. Maybe the Mandalorian will be fun, but seems a new PinballFX exclusive (not for FX3 ??). Time will tell and, hopefully soon, questions will be answered.

  11. #36
    Junior Member BionicJim's Avatar
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    I’m super excited about this announcement because I felt like VR was “too niche” for a smallish company to continue supporting, even though they produced excellent games. I like to dabble with other games on my PSVR, but Pinball FX VR is the only one that I regularly play. The extra - pinball environment and ability to lean-in to the table and check out the operation of each shot is magical. I’m not sure if I would’ve gotten into the ET game as much if it weren’t for the VR version that made the animated characters more compelling and the drop-down play field with flying spaceships really cool. My fav is Mars, though, a table I spent many hours on in early versions of Pinball FX (wasn’t it called Zen Pinball then?). It was transformed into a new and exciting experience in VR. I’ve read others comment that Tesla is a game changer in VR and that is my sensibility, too. Overall, I’m very pleased about Zen being willing to continue to innovate in VR while also providing content on the Arcade 1Up machines and traditional platforms.

  12. #37
    Senior Member trash80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BionicJim View Post
    I’m super excited about this announcement because I felt like VR was “too niche” for a smallish company to continue supporting, even though they produced excellent games. I like to dabble with other games on my PSVR, but Pinball FX VR is the only one that I regularly play. The extra - pinball environment and ability to lean-in to the table and check out the operation of each shot is magical. I’m not sure if I would’ve gotten into the ET game as much if it weren’t for the VR version that made the animated characters more compelling and the drop-down play field with flying spaceships really cool. My fav is Mars, though, a table I spent many hours on in early versions of Pinball FX (wasn’t it called Zen Pinball then?). It was transformed into a new and exciting experience in VR. I’ve read others comment that Tesla is a game changer in VR and that is my sensibility, too. Overall, I’m very pleased about Zen being willing to continue to innovate in VR while also providing content on the Arcade 1Up machines and traditional platforms.
    Zen is not "smallish," they are a wholly owned subsidiary of Embracer Group which is the largest publicly traded European video game company in existence. Much of what we are seeing from Zen, like VR, new (unannounced) IP, and the brand new upcoming edition of Pinball FX are due to the capital security available to the studio from being part of a huge conglomerate .

  13. #38
    Senior Member zmcvay's Avatar
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    Wasn't able to watch much of the video for now, as much as I love playing in VR, hoping I can play them out of VR as well.

    Not thrilled about the classic table selection, hope the others come down the pipe. Baffled Masters of the Force is getting the upgrade, but maybe that table will play better when I can look around it easier. I've never had a great time visualizing shots there. Rebels gets dull fast, and it would have been nice to include things from beyond season 1. Solo was better than either of those IMO and I'm not sure why they didn't just prioritize the movie tables.

    Hoping Starfighter Assault gets the move over. Not the best Zen table, but having the two capital ships battle across the table would be epic!

  14. #39
    Senior Member Scared Stiff's Avatar
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    I am very unhappy with Zen these days. Considering they have not had much content in the last year, they should be working RAPIDLY to feel that void on EXISTING platforms. Instead they are obsessed with the single minded effort of abandoning current software for new greener pastures when they instead should have had a two track approach of building for the future AND for the present time. The present time has been almost abandoned entirely and now when they do get around to releasing something, it’s a separate thing and something not everyone can even use.

    I need them to be more focused on today, not just tomorrow. If the new version of FX was coming out say in the next two months, I’d feel differently. But I don’t think this will be released until towards the end of the year making for a VERY sparse two year period.

  15. #40
    Junior Member BionicJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash80 View Post
    ...the capital security available to the studio from being part of a huge conglomerate .
    I sure hope this works out well for Zen, but wasn’t the acquisition very recent? I’m gun shy from the infamous Microsoft “wholly owned subsidiary”, Rare, purchased to goose development on Xbox, and somehow not, most probably due to too many corporate decision-makers changing the path that had brought them to glory in the first place. With this new show and all the irons in the fire we know about, this is an exciting time and hopefully Embracer Group is the catalyst needed for Zen to shine even brighter.

  16. #41
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    The announcement fo the acquisition was recent, but the processess of it happening had to be happening for well over 6-8 months. Zen had to present what their long term goals were if acquired, and I think that changed up how things otherwise were going to go at Zen, based on the idea of an influx of capitol. I believe that is why the new Pinball FX was fast tracked, why converting all tables to have Williams physics as an option went from "it's on our list of things we'd like to do" to "this is happening", why Battle Royale is going to be a thing, why VR is getting dropped into the mix again. These things are going to take a larger workforce and with secure capitol, hiring won't be an issue.

    The thing that attracted Embracer to Zen was their RPG games, but they came away being really impressed by the pinball side of Zen. They've been pretty much told to keep on keepin' on, but think bigger. When 2021 closes, I think everyone is going to be blown away by the scope of what Zen achieved.
    I'm just sayin'

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  17. #42
    Senior Member joeblow's Avatar
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    ^^^ While I hope all of what you say is true, it also remains to be seen if the new FX platform pushes a lot of us away with an unacceptable subscription model. That in and of itself isn't an issue as long as there is also an option to purchase tables outright.

  18. #43
    Moderator shutyertrap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeblow View Post
    ^^^ While I hope all of what you say is true, it also remains to be seen if the new FX platform pushes a lot of us away with an unacceptable subscription model. That in and of itself isn't an issue as long as there is also an option to purchase tables outright.
    I love how the mention of "new business models" has morphed into full blown "subscription" based gaming (something born out of fear mongering minutes after it was uttered).

    We already know Star Wars VR is going to sell for $25 (I think?), no mention of subscription. The business model that Zen has employed for the last 10 years is not going to suddenly change for Pinball FX. Purchasing tables outright is not going to change for PC and consoles. If Zen does upgrade mobile (and they seriously need to), it'll probably be much like Williams Pinball, utilizing the freemium model. The only place subscriptions might come into play is with Pinball Royale, and all you need look at is how Fortnite or Rocket League function to understand how that'll work. It's free to play, there are seasons, and if you don't want to grind for upgrades then you subscribe to season passes and get additional perks with those games. For pinball think in terms of what is available in the Williams app; custom ball trails, flipper skins, and ball skins.
    I'm just sayin'

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  19. #44
    Senior Member joeblow's Avatar
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    I was referring to console/PC only with my comment, but I'm not sure how you can dismiss the concerns for those platforms so easily. I mean, even your post shows a potentially two conflicting approaches where Zen Studios clearly hints about implementing new business models while you claim they are not going to stop charging for PFX.

    So if they are going to keep charging for PFX, how is that the new business model? The only way that makes sense is if, as I said at the end of my last post, they allow purchasing of tables alongside whatever it is they are pushing as being new.

    In the end, I think expressed concerns like mine are a good thing for the developer. The poll I posted shows that at least at this site, they have a large majority of fans that do not want to be forced to go the subscription route. I see far more negative comments from various PFX fans against a sub model than in support of it. Feedback on the 'net like that at least gives them additional market info to help plan their decisions before it is too late.
    Last edited by joeblow; 03-02-2021 at 09:20 AM.

  20. #45
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    SYT: People overreact but where there is smoke, there is fire. There are two areas that have spread doubt with Zen and those areas can't be pushed under the carpet for those that feel they are bad "signs".

    1 - the lack of tables and communication
    2 - that Freemium model you spoke of

    FYI Freemium exists for other games on PC/consoles, just take a look at steam so we can't just state "mobile" when mentioning this model. The onus is on Zen to do better on the communication here. I get that the best bang for the buck is as a company, you never release all your info in one shot. You want people to talk about it for a long time, build momentum. I get that. But not too sure their "pinball show" is the way to move forward at this stage, might have been better as a sustainment of momentum so that the picture is already clear and the momentum is sustained between releases. So although their is communication via their "Pinball Show", it is not the communication needed right now.

    Anyway personally I'm a bit more indifferent towards Pinball FX (4) because of the lack of information and rarity of the releases. If they ever decide to go to a subscription model, they would lose me. I agree I doubt that's where they go so I don't fear it. However, freemium is absolutely a possibility and that does scare me. If they found the mobile version brought more money as freemium than the previous purchase versions, then they would be fools to not consider it. if they ever go that route, they will have lost me like they have on ios. It's just not my thing.

    This hobby used to always be tagged with gamblers and seedy bars, so drugs, etc. I can see why, all we will need is some info (a fix) and we will all be right back in. so if the future is rosy as you say, all will be good

  21. #46
    Senior Member trash80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The loafer View Post
    SYT: People overreact but where there is smoke, there is fire. There are two areas that have spread doubt with Zen and those areas can't be pushed under the carpet for those that feel they are bad "signs".

    1 - the lack of tables and communication
    2 - that Freemium model you spoke of

    FYI Freemium exists for other games on PC/consoles, just take a look at steam so we can't just state "mobile" when mentioning this model. The onus is on Zen to do better on the communication here. I get that the best bang for the buck is as a company, you never release all your info in one shot. You want people to talk about it for a long time, build momentum. I get that. But not too sure their "pinball show" is the way to move forward at this stage, might have been better as a sustainment of momentum so that the picture is already clear and the momentum is sustained between releases. So although their is communication via their "Pinball Show", it is not the communication needed right now.

    Anyway personally I'm a bit more indifferent towards Pinball FX (4) because of the lack of information and rarity of the releases. If they ever decide to go to a subscription model, they would lose me. I agree I doubt that's where they go so I don't fear it. However, freemium is absolutely a possibility and that does scare me. If they found the mobile version brought more money as freemium than the previous purchase versions, then they would be fools to not consider it. if they ever go that route, they will have lost me like they have on ios. It's just not my thing.

    This hobby used to always be tagged with gamblers and seedy bars, so drugs, etc. I can see why, all we will need is some info (a fix) and we will all be right back in. so if the future is rosy as you say, all will be good
    Shutyertrap is privy to some Zen information that has not yet been made public. However, specifics and dates may change and even deals fall through. Anyway...

    It would be nice to post official answers to:

    1. Will Steam be a storefront for Pinball FX (4)?
    2. Will currently owned DLC carry over from Pinball FX 3 to the new Pinball FX (4) within the same PC/Console ecosystem?
    3. Will there be exclusive DLC IP for specific Hardware and/or Subscription platforms (PS Plus, etc.)
    4. Will there be an additional charge and/or subscription for Cabinet mode?

    I think most people on this board lean toward and prefer the traditional digital representation of pinball, and are probably not as concerned about what changes may happen with the mobile platform and exactly how Pinball Royale is monetized. But should Zen continue to see increasing revenue spreads that favor the freemium model, I'm pretty sure we will see a transition to this across all hardware platforms. Maybe we'll get a WeChat pay to play app interface before too long too.

  22. #47
    Senior Member trash80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeblow View Post
    I was referring to console/PC only with my comment, but I'm not sure how you can dismiss the concerns for those platforms so easily. I mean, even your post shows a potentially two conflicting approaches where Zen Studios clearly hints about implementing new business models while you claim they are not going to stop charging for PFX.

    So if they are going to keep charging for PFX, how is that the new business model? The only way that makes sense is if, as I said at the end of my last post, they allow purchasing of tables alongside whatever it is they are pushing as being new.

    In the end, I think expressed concerns like mine are a good thing for the developer. The poll I posted shows that at least at this site, they have a large majority of fans that do not want to be forced to go the subscription route. I see far more negative comments from various PFX fans against a sub model than in support of it. Feedback on the 'net like that at least gives them additional market info to help plan their decisions before it is too late.
    It was too late over a year ago... You really needed to have the ad generated mobile revenue be a bust for us to not be having this conversation.

    Zen (and most software compaines) do not look at outside forum polls for guidance of their business model. Plus this new cycle of Pinball FX has been in development for almost two years and the accompaning business model(s) have been planned out even longer. And given that Zen is now part of Embracer Group, there will likely be even more distance between niche (meaning US here on this forum) consumer and developer. Zen has reffered to internal market and sales data in the past and they know what is best for them to meet whatever goals and expectations they have placed on themselves.

  23. #48
    Senior Member dtown8532's Avatar
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    Stern partnership and/or make your Arcade1Up cabs upgradable with new tables. That’s what most people want.

  24. #49
    Senior Member joeblow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash80 View Post
    It was too late over a year ago... You really needed to have the ad generated mobile revenue be a bust for us to not be having this conversation.

    Zen (and most software compaines) do not look at outside forum polls for guidance of their business model. Plus this new cycle of Pinball FX has been in development for almost two years and the accompaning business model(s) have been planned out even longer. And given that Zen is now part of Embracer Group, there will likely be even more distance between niche (meaning US here on this forum) consumer and developer. Zen has reffered to internal market and sales data in the past and they know what is best for them to meet whatever goals and expectations they have placed on themselves.
    Put aside the fact that I specifically claimed feedback from all around the internet influences decisions (not just a forum poll, which is just one contribution to that effort), your main point about what's been planned by the publisher is not so cut and dried. Reality is far more unpredictable than the nice and neat scenarios you describe.

    Take a look at Microsoft, who is as big of a company as they come, yet when they announced a new pricing structure for XBox Gold subscriptions a month or so ago (a sharp price increase) the internet mob went after them, and they changed their tune in a day or two. The same company backtracked on an always online console and the inability to trade physical games soon after announcing those "features" at the beginning of the last console generation.

    So I stand by my overall point: the only thing fans of PFX can do is express their displeasure (on forums, reddit, polls, twitter, whatever) when decisions made from on high are potentially not in sync with their expectations, all in hopes of getting changes if need be, and the sooner it's done the better. After that, we vote with our wallets.
    Last edited by joeblow; 03-02-2021 at 01:56 PM.

  25. #50
    Senior Member trash80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeblow View Post
    Put aside the fact that I specifically claimed feedback from all around the internet influences decisions (not just a forum poll, which is just one contribution to that effort), your main point about what's been planned by the publisher is not so cut and dried. Reality is far more unpredictable than the nice and neat scenarios you describe.

    Take a look at Microsoft, who is as big of a company as they come, yet when they announced a new pricing structure for XBox Gold subscriptions a month or so ago (a sharp price increase) the internet mob went after them, and they changed their tune in a day or two. The same company backtracked on an always online console and the inability to trade physical games soon after announcing those "features" at the beginning of the last console generation.

    So I stand by my overall point: the only thing fans of PFX can do is express their displeasure (on forums, reddit, polls, twitter, whatever) when decisions made from on high are potentially not in sync with their expectations, all in hopes of getting changes if need be, and the sooner it's done the better. After that, we vote with our wallets.
    You should pay attention to the history of Zen Studios for possible future guidance. Do you remember the FX2 to FX3 transition? While they use official polls and direct user and sales feedback to dictate their path forward, Zen's business and development cycle is 18+ months out, and many of the issues that customers have with Zen are related to things that have many moving parts and with third parties involved. Getting things to change AFTER they have been announced is not going to happen.

    Censorship on Consoles
    Football (Soccer) Table
    Various licenses
    etc...

    Maybe Zen has been listening to all of the internet forum feedback and this is why we are getting a new Pinball FX sooner rather than later, including all of the warts that may come with the new platform.

    Here is an example of user feedback getting us to where we are today. People repeatedly asked for the Williams physics to be applied to all the other Zen tables in FX3. Zen gave us a response that it was something they would like to do. Zen then gave us a response that it was a whole lot more work than initially thought but that they are working on it. Zen is now implying that the new Pinball FX game and engine being used will facilitate the Williams physics being applied to the Original Zen tables. But if we break this down... the consumers are still not getting what they asked for, that all of the FX3 tables have Williams physics. Instead we are getting a completely brand new game with completely new physics across the board, and all of the tables that will carry over will be updated and remastered. FX3 will remain in the state that it is in and I guess we will just have to wait and see how these new physics play in the new FX.

    Your examples don't really apply.
    An internet mob got Microsoft to reverse a decision to make a $1 dollar per month increase to the price of Xbox Gold? There is no comparison here.
    The physical media trading (reselling) is protected by both US and EU laws. Again, no comparison here.
    Last edited by trash80; 03-03-2021 at 02:13 AM.

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