BlahCade #220 Is Their Newest Interview With Mel

shutyertrap · Apr 10, 2021

Hey all.

We got to chat with Mel for over an hour the other day and really got to dig into some topics that needed clarification. Episode premieres Saturday April 10 at 9:30am PDT with myself and Jared being live in the YouTube comments. You're not gonna wanna miss it.

PinJimmy · Apr 10, 2021

That was a good interview. I enjoyed listening to it.
Glad to hear they are trying to bring back the Street fighter 2 table aswell. It was the first table I played on my xbox 360 And got me into pinball back in the day. Hope they will add some music from the game to it cause it had only one song on repeat.

Also curious what they are planning to release between Star wars vr and the new pinball fx.
Maybe Williams VR or marvel VR. Cant think of something else they might release pinball related.

joeblow · Apr 11, 2021

Hmmm, I didn't notice any mention of our ability to outright purchase PFX tables without a forced subscription in the new video interview. Hopefully it's explicitly addressed soon at some point.

shutyertrap · Apr 11, 2021

joeblow said:
Hmmm, I didn't notice any mention of our ability to outright purchase PFX tables without a forced subscription in the new video interview. Hopefully it's explicitly addressed soon at some point.

No pricing has been stated to date, other than I believe for Star Wars VR. Obviously we'll hear what's what prior to the game release. I still say the Pinball Royale portion of things is probably going to look a lot like Rocket League, where the game is free and you can earn "things", or you can pay a subscription and not have to grind plus you get "extra things". With pinball proper, I can't see Zen ditching outright purchases, especially since VR will be exactly that.

vfpcoder · Apr 11, 2021

That was a very good interview.

Stuff I learned:

* The Embracer Group is apparently “all in” on Virtual Pinball as they have provided Zen with the resources to hire 20 additional Pinball-explicit programmers.

* Once the move has been made to the “Unreal” graphics platform, they are expecting to crank out 20 new tables per year.

* The Epic store exclusivity will extend for one year per the release date of each table. In other words, tables (hypothetically) released in August 2021 will be available on Steam in August 2022. Tables (hypothetically) released in September 2021 will be available on Steam in September 2022, and so on.

* They are still expecting to release around 11 new tables this calendar year, so I suppose that does mean the new platform will be launched between June and August. I’m still unclear as to whether these are ports from FX3; or new Zen originals; or additional Williams/Bally emulations; or a mixture of all three. We do know for sure that the new “Mandalorian” table is included in that count.

* Zen considers the Arcade1UP machines to be a separate platform and does plan to continue to support that platform going forward. A patch was mentioned for the current firmware that may or may not include accelerometer calibration and an upgrade to fix the dropped frames in the “Whitewater” table on the “Attack From Mars” cabinet.

* Lots of discussion about VR which doesn’t really interest me until the rumored “Apple Glasses” are released.

The most disconcerting aspect about all of this from my perspective is still the Epic Store 1 year exclusive on each and every table. I’ll probably jump to Epic only if the cabinet support has been improved; otherwise I may wait out the year.

wilbers · Apr 11, 2021

vfpcoder said:
That was a very good interview.

Stuff I learned:

* The Epic store exclusivity will extend for one year per the release date of each table. In other words, tables (hypothetically) released in August 2021 will be available on Steam in August 2022. Tables (hypothetically) released in September 2021 will be available on Steam in September 2022, and so on.

The most disconcerting aspect about all of this from my perspective is still the Epic Store 1 year exclusive on each and every table. I’ll probably jump to Epic only if the cabinet support has been improved; otherwise I may wait out the year.

You might want to re-watch it, the 1 year exclusivity starts when the Pinball FX platform launches, not from when each new table launches. There is a lot of stuff in that interview, I'm sure there will be something in it I've missed as well.

shutyertrap · Apr 11, 2021

wilbers said:
You might want to re-watch it, the 1 year exclusivity starts when the Pinball FX platform launches, not from when each new table launches. There is a lot of stuff in that interview, I'm sure there will be something in it I've missed as well.

Yep, I'll just reiterate that fact. Any table released during the Epic 1 year exclusivity will arrive day and date with PinFX when it comes to Steam.

Perhaps the most confusing part of the whole interview was indeed the "11 tables from the ground up" bit. Muffled in the cross talk was Mel saying "not ports", while he did say yes when I asked if it was Zen Originals AND Williams tables. I took that to mean those 11 would not be any tables we've already seen in FX3. But then the second time it came up, Mel really dug in on them being ground up, from scratch builds, almost implying they'd all be Zen originals. We dropped the ball in not following up on exactly how there would be tables released between Star Wars VR and the launch of PinFX, other than them maybe being a stand alone app for now? I'm gonna do my best to see if we can get clarification on that.

Pinballwiz45b · Apr 11, 2021

vfpcoder said:
* The Epic store exclusivity will extend for one year per the release date of each table. In other words, tables (hypothetically) released in August 2021 will be available on Steam in August 2022. Tables (hypothetically) released in September 2021 will be available on Steam in September 2022, and so on.

The most disconcerting aspect about all of this from my perspective is still the Epic Store 1 year exclusive on each and every table. I’ll probably jump to Epic only if the cabinet support has been improved; otherwise I may wait out the year.

Pinball FX itself is going exclusive; no tables are affected whatsoever. Does it make sense to put Steam behind even the console versions of the game, content-wise? At that point they'd be stabbing Steam users in the back even more.

trash80 · Apr 11, 2021

shutyertrap said:
Yep, I'll just reiterate that fact. Any table released during the Epic 1 year exclusivity will arrive day and date with PinFX when it comes to Steam.

Perhaps the most confusing part of the whole interview was indeed the "11 tables from the ground up" bit. Muffled in the cross talk was Mel saying "not ports", while he did say yes when I asked if it was Zen Originals AND Williams tables. I took that to mean those 11 would not be any tables we've already seen in FX3. But then the second time it came up, Mel really dug in on them being ground up, from scratch builds, almost implying they'd all be Zen originals. We dropped the ball in not following up on exactly how there would be tables released between Star Wars VR and the launch of PinFX, other than them maybe being a stand alone app for now? I'm gonna do my best to see if we can get clarification on that.

Good interview, though I would like to see you guys tackle Mel on nuance and context more. He has a knack for non-committal marketing-speak, and I was actually surprised to hear him give a definitive "yes" to them patching in the Vol.4 WMS physics into the Vol.1-3 tables. However, he did also leave the time frame open ended as to when this would be done.

I agree it sounds like there are 11 Zen originals (seems that the upcoming 2 Star Wars tables are included in this total) that are getting released in 2021. It also sounds like there is NO development in the PX engine currently occurring, so the hinted at surprise release before the new Pinball FX may just be a physical cartridge release for Switch or a new VR release. But based on how/when linne posts things on the Steam forums, and hindsight being what it is. I wouldn't be surprised if a physical table release of one of the Zen original tables is the big surprise.

shutyertrap · Apr 11, 2021

trash80 said:
Good interview, though I would like to see you guys tackle Mel on nuance and context more.

It’s crazy; we get in the heat of the moment of hearing answers, processing, trying to work in the next question as we only have limited time and want to get them all in (yes, Jared and I prepare a list rather than winging it, shocking I know!), and then on listening back hear things that we smack our heads for not diving deeper on. Who knows, maybe that’s why Mel continues to come on the show!

vfpcoder · Apr 11, 2021

Hey guys: Glad I misinterpreted the way the exclusivity window works. Now we just need the fx launch date so we can start the "countdown to Steam" ...

trash80 · Apr 11, 2021

vfpcoder said:
Hey guys: Glad I misinterpreted the way the exclusivity window works. Now we just need the fx launch date so we can start the "countdown to Steam" ...

Zen has stated that All tables released during the exclusivity window will be available on Steam when that period ends. So...

Let's say, Pinball FX releases in August 2021 and then over the next 12 months Zen releases the remastered FX3 tables and maybe a bunch of new Originals and a pack or two of WMS tables, these would all be available in the Steam Pinball FX product come August 2022. Mel did say that everyone knows DLC is NOT a timed exclusive arrangement, so this would imply that a new DLC pack released in Oct 2022 in this scenario would be released on EGS and Steam simultaneously, so on and so forth.

wilbers · Apr 12, 2021

Hey, its a podcast about a podcast!

Does mention about a marketing collaboration between Arcade1Up (non-pinball products) and Stern - sounds like something to ask John D about.

shutyertrap · Apr 12, 2021

Gotta love podception!

Obviously I get it from reading various threads, but I do like seeing what other channels (who have a very specific point of view too) take from our episodes and then focus on with info they've been collecting from various places.

Narc0lep5y · Apr 13, 2021

Great show guys. Glad that Mel still sees the value in doing other shows and not just TPS.

What are the 11 new in 2021 tables? Am i stealing a future show idea?

We already know the 2 Star Wars on VR. There's no new tables for FX3 platform, so that leaves a combo of possibilities, IMO, for the remaining 9.

1) New tables that launch with PFX or after it.
Does a Street fighter or Buccaneer, etc. remake from FX1/2 count as a new table if they do those?
You have to think FX will launch with some new tables with it and not just all the remasters. Likely that at least some of those 9 will show up here either at or after launch.
Who's taking odds on a Fortnite and/or Rocket League table at launch?

2) more tables for existing platforms that aren't FX3, which means new tables for Star Wars VR? Maybe some SW content here to bridge the gap before FX4

Is that enough to get to 11 between those two? Probably. But that's not fun enough so I'll put up some really wacky 3rd possibilities. It would also be really boring if those 11 tables are all almost 6 months away and I don't know how they are going to fill content for TPS without something else.

3) a new app with it's own tables
Is it a new Pinball FX VR with some of those soon to be in FX(4) tables?
Stern FX? Stern VR? We know Stern likes it's own branded apps.
Williams VR?
Marvel VR? Those last 2 are probably less likely as most of those would probably have tables already produced and not be ground up new.
Gottlieb? Jersey Jack? Spooky? Disney? Indiana Jones? If it isn't part of PFX then it's got to be big enough to get it's own app and have all new tables with it.

Here's my guess. It probably won't be announced until the Pinball Show that airs in May, and using the typical Zen announce to launch math, that means a June/July launch. SW was announced in March, and will launch a month later.

Stern VR or maybe just Stern FX Pinball. The Farsight SPA and SPA Gear VR first launched in June 2016, so depending on the deal it will be 5 years in June of this year. That's about the right amount of time for a deal to expire.
If it's VR, you have to figure 4-6 tables at launch like Star Wars. If it's a SPA like app maybe 2-3 at launch, then the balance to get to the full 11 would come between Stern and PFX for the rest of the year. Watch the store listings for SPA and Stern tables this month and next month for more signs.

trash80 · Apr 13, 2021

The 11 new tables Mel mentioned are tables that are being built from the ground up. So they will be completely new to the Zen franchise. Two of these are the two new Star Wars tables that are included in Star Wars VR. These 11 new tables (along with some remasters) will be in the upcoming Pinball FX that will be released later this year.

It wouldn't make business sense to release the new Pinball FX without having a substantial number of completely new original titles to purchase at launch. I'll bet we finally see the other Zen IP (Operancia, Castle Storm, etc.) tables released in this initial group. So that is at least 5 of the 11 total. There was a switch in WMS table development when Vol. 5 was released, so I would imagine there is a new WMS pack of 3 tables ready at launch to bring us to 8 of the 11 total. So... what could the final 3 be? Marvel? New original IP? Something completely out of left field?

Maybe Zen can release new DLC packs that include a new table or two with a couple of remastered tables. This would offset an increased price in DLC packs while also "giving" us the remastered tables at a perceived discounted price point.

Narc0lep5y · Apr 14, 2021

trash80 said:
The 11 new tables Mel mentioned are tables that are being built from the ground up. So they will be completely new to the Zen franchise. Two of these are the two new Star Wars tables that are included in Star Wars VR. These 11 new tables (along with some remasters) will be in the upcoming Pinball FX that will be released later this year.

It wouldn't make business sense to release the new Pinball FX without having a substantial number of completely new original titles to purchase at launch. I'll bet we finally see the other Zen IP (Operancia, Castle Storm, etc.) tables released in this initial group. So that is at least 5 of the 11 total. There was a switch in WMS table development when Vol. 5 was released, so I would imagine there is a new WMS pack of 3 tables ready at launch to bring us to 8 of the 11 total. So... what could the final 3 be? Marvel? New original IP? Something completely out of left field?

Maybe Zen can release new DLC packs that include a new table or two with a couple of remastered tables. This would offset an increased price in DLC packs while also "giving" us the remastered tables at a perceived discounted price point.

I think it all depends on how they price/package PFX. If it's a cost to entry, like FX2VR or SW VR, that would be a change from FX2 and FX3. And you would certainly would expect some new titles along with that asking price. But, if it's a free to play DLC model like the others have been? I'd say there's no guarantee of that many new tables at launch. If it's a sub model (ugh) then a September/October launch with a sub that gets you 1-3 new titles a month for subscribing covers through end of year and 20 tables in 2022 would keep up with that pace. I don't feel that sure about a subscription model especially with the way licenses probably have to work, but the dlc table math works out if it does.

But to use FX3 as a guide. It is free and launched with the Universal classics DLC as the only "new" content. They even gave away the next new DLC after launch with the Carnival and Zeus tables. They could easily throw in one or a couple of the remasters or even Sorcerer's Lair re-re-mastered and make all the revenue on the DLC without needing a large swath of new tables. If it's not a sub model, and if the full remastered packs are out there at the same time as new content, will they cannibalize sales off of each other? Is that too much content for the market?

I still think "The Pinball Show" needs more content than that. The show started because they "had so much content coming out that they needed their own show". If all of the content to sell is back loaded for the end of the year, why start TPS in January? And if there's nothing new to sell until October, what the heck will they talk about every month until then? I'm not 100% on my guess but It just seems like there's got to be another revenue announcement somewhere in there before PFX launches.

trash80 · Apr 14, 2021

Narc0lep5y said:
I think it all depends on how they price/package PFX. If it's a cost to entry, like FX2VR or SW VR, that would be a change from FX2 and FX3. And you would certainly would expect some new titles along with that asking price. But, if it's a free to play DLC model like the others have been? I'd say there's no guarantee of that many new tables at launch. If it's a sub model (ugh) then a September/October launch with a sub that gets you 1-3 new titles a month for subscribing covers through end of year and 20 tables in 2022 would keep up with that pace. I don't feel that sure about a subscription model especially with the way licenses probably have to work, but the dlc table math works out if it does.

But to use FX3 as a guide. It is free and launched with the Universal classics DLC as the only "new" content. They even gave away the next new DLC after launch with the Carnival and Zeus tables. They could easily throw in one or a couple of the remasters or even Sorcerer's Lair re-re-mastered and make all the revenue on the DLC without needing a large swath of new tables. If it's not a sub model, and if the full remastered packs are out there at the same time as new content, will they cannibalize sales off of each other? Is that too much content for the market?

I still think "The Pinball Show" needs more content than that. The show started because they "had so much content coming out that they needed their own show". If all of the content to sell is back loaded for the end of the year, why start TPS in January? And if there's nothing new to sell until October, what the heck will they talk about every month until then? I'm not 100% on my guess but It just seems like there's got to be another revenue announcement somewhere in there before PFX launches.

I imagine the game will be similar to FX3 when it comes to packaging format. Free table(s) + DLC but with added Pinball Royale that may use a monthly pass. Since nothing is carrying over from the previous FX, they will need lots of brand new content to get people to want to be early adopters. Remember, this is not going to be on Steam, PS4 or Xbox One, so Zen is really competing only against people deciding to stay with FX3, and they need to get people to want to move over to the new Pinball FX as quickly as possible. Is new Pinball FX worthy of a new PS5 console purchase? Not sure... but they better be building out this platform as if it is a console driver.

Also, the switch to the Unreal engine is really being driven from a development standpoint than it being some huge end user upgrade over the PX engine. On the surface it may be difficult to convince someone to re-purchase all their old tables again for what amounts to slightly better lighting and possibly better networking options.

Pinball is just a portion of Zen's revenue. They are also working on RPG titles. And with the Embracer Group deal they don't need to worry about cyclical revenue at this point.

The Pinball show was so they could control the narrative and target a younger demographic. It was never really about Zen "news." Personally, I don't think it has been very successful, and in many ways has caused more harm to the brand. Just go read the subreddit after a show airs... but then I am no longer their target audience (like most of us here), so what do I know.

Zen knows the hardcore pinball person is probably going to buy most all of the new tables day one as they release just like they always have. They need new eyes and wallets to justify where they want to go as a studio, and it will be interesting to see how this plays out. Can Zen make pinball be all things for all people?

PinJimmy · Apr 14, 2021

Maybe Pinball Royale will get it own platform or app besides Pinball FX. They might release that one earlier.

BionicJim · Apr 23, 2021

vfpcoder said:
That was a very good interview.

* Lots of discussion about VR which doesn’t really interest me until the rumored “Apple Glasses” are released.]

I agree this was a great interview, guys - good job! For some reason it didn’t show up on my podcast server until this week, so I’m a bit behind commenting.

First off, I was very interested in the VR questions because that is the most compelling way I play Zen’s products (PSVR). I’ve tried going back to the tables in 2D after playing them in VR and there is simply no comparison. May 4th can’t come soon enough (if that is when the Star Wars VR tables are available) - I think they originally said April 29th, but I’m confused by what Mel said in the interview about releasing something for that day.

As for the new tables this year, we know you guys have said there are two new Zen originals that have been in the can for a couple of years and then there is the two Star Wars tables that appear to be VR-only for now. That’s four. Mel seemed to be hinting very strongly that there will be new licensed IP, so I bet we will get a surprise here with an IP we haven’t seen before.

PS4 and Xbox One are not launch platforms, for the new game, but will get it fairly quick it sounds like. That’s a relief since I’ve never seen a PS5 out in the wild.

BlahCade #220 Is Their Newest Interview With Mel

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