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Thread: Multiple FX Pinball announcements today, plus first looks!

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinballmonster View Post
    He's obviously an attention seeking troll. He can't get any positive attention IRL so, here he is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scared Stiff View Post
    LOL. Perhaps.
    Admin post: User was banned for posting this garbage.
    Last edited by pinfan7; 02-01-2022 at 06:52 AM.

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    VPX is superior and also a much larger investment time wise. Zen is click and play.

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    The good news is, we can play both. VPX is a giant pain in the ^&% to set up and maintain, so it's not for everyone. I think it's well worth the effort, especially in a cabinet. But, if you build a cabinet you're already in for a huge learning curve, so this is just another part of it.

    FWIW, I also think that Road Show and NGG are better in FX3 than currently available versions in VPX. FX3 tournaments have no comparison in VPX either. The Zen originals also aren't in VPX, so for those who feel strongly about them, that's more value.

    Buying tables in FX supports the license and keeps pinball more mainstream and gets more players which is good for everyone. Playing in VPX means customizable cabinet options, customizable camera views, customizable physics, surround sound feedback, custom sounds, color dmd's, custom playfields, custom table mods, and more.
    It also means all Zen has to do to create stellar cabinet support in Fx4 is just mirror what's already out there in VPX (and not tick off license holders), but they also had that option in FX3 and haven't done that yet so we'll wait and see what happens for 4.

    Personally I'll buy FX3 Indy even though I'll have plenty of hours into the just-released VPinWorkshop Indy table before then, and will wait on FX4 until it's not exclusive on EGS.

    Zen could also go all in on a bunch of flash but no substance features like this PinHall thing or something else at the expense of game play features and mess the whole thing up too.

  4. #29
    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    Zen's video clip in their latest The Pinball Show is Williams physics i.e. live catch and flipper movement. It looks like they still need to work on the physics a lot even to match what they already had in FX3 Williams Classic Arcade with e.g. Monster Bash.
    That's interesting! I only watched a few seconds of the video. In that case, the physics on the elastics still need some work then. Especially, if they are using red rubbers.

    Fun Fact: Did you know that the rubbers on pinball machines are color coded? The lighter the color, the more bouncier they are. White rubbers are the most bouncey, red is mid range, and black is the least bouncey.

    The lighting effects of the playfield are baked in, so I don't know what you are doing for it to look washed out? Maybe you are moving the day/night slider up too much?
    They aren't completely baked in. I change the intensity in the actual code script (when available), so I can keep most of the effects on. I'm amazed that the code for the lighting is still based on PacDude's lighting script code, that was originally made in VP8.

    I occasionally use the day slider but not that much. I wonder if it's a setting on monitor that is causing the problem?

    There has been a vast improvement in VPX quality over the last two years mostly because of a team of VPX veteran authors called the Visual Pinball Workshop (VPW) mod team that has set the standard. They have released 21 tables in two years that are all top-quality in terms of physics, lighting, sound etc.
    That's good to hear. However, until they cover the tables that I usually play. I'm not going to notice much. Most of the tables I've played on VPX are tables I've played in real life. Most of them are in the niche category for what it's worth.

    There are so many great tables that I just haven't gotten to including Batman 66, Guardians of the Galaxy and Metallica.
    Have they finally started working on LCD tables? I'm surprised considering the ROM sizes (2.5GB average).
    Last edited by shogun00; 02-01-2022 at 02:46 PM. Reason: Typos

  5. #30
    Senior Member Cloda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post

    Have they finally started working on LCD tables? I'm surprised considering the ROM sizes (2.5GB average).
    Both the rules and video display etc. of Batman 66 and Guardians of the Galaxy was coded from scratch without using the ROM. It was a huge amount of work. That team is also working on a "new" table where they must do the same that they will hopefully release in the next few months. Someone is also working on Black Knight Swords of Rage and then you have tables that look like the real deal i.e. Godzilla, but without the rules and display. The ROM's for tables after around 2013 can't be emulated yet. The only exception I know about is Ghost Busters that Farsight ported and where the VPX use that "ROM".
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  6. #31
    Senior Member Pete's Avatar
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    the thing i really want to hear from zen right now, is that we are going to get all the williams tables in VR on oculus. Ive got a quest 2 and star wars is pretty cool on it... i didn't even like the star wars tables, and yet now i play them because i have the head set... and it is pretty cool in vr... however what i really want is Williams/Bally tables. the whole time playing it i'm like i wish these were good tables. they sold over 6 million of these head sets. the store is currently tiny with much less competition than consoles. they already have the groundwork figured out with star wars. they would be completely stupid to not release everything they can on it ASAP before it bloats with crap.

  7. #32
    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloda View Post
    Both the rules and video display etc. of Batman 66 and Guardians of the Galaxy was coded from scratch without using the ROM. It was a huge amount of work. That team is also working on a "new" table where they must do the same that they will hopefully release in the next few months. Someone is also working on Black Knight Swords of Rage and then you have tables that look like the real deal i.e. Godzilla, but without the rules and display. The ROM's for tables after around 2013 can't be emulated yet. The only exception I know about is Ghost Busters that Farsight ported and where the VPX use that "ROM".
    I own BK:SoR (pro) and I can tell you first hand that the ROM file for that machine is 2.6GB uncompressed. Spike 1 games are emulatable, since the board only uses a standard graphics chip and low end CPU. Plus, the ROM file is no larger than 50MB. Spike 2 uses a GPU along with a high end CPU.

  8. #33
    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    the thing i really want to hear from zen right now, is that we are going to get all the williams tables in VR on oculus. Ive got a quest 2 and star wars is pretty cool on it... i didn't even like the star wars tables, and yet now i play them because i have the head set... and it is pretty cool in vr... however what i really want is Williams/Bally tables. the whole time playing it i'm like i wish these were good tables. they sold over 6 million of these head sets. the store is currently tiny with much less competition than consoles. they already have the groundwork figured out with star wars. they would be completely stupid to not release everything they can on it ASAP before it bloats with crap.
    The problem is can they? It's not Zen that's the problem but Scientific Games. Either SG is asking way too much to add VR to the current WMS contract or they are against VR in general.

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    How much do oculus do to curate their store? Are they actively keeping shovelware out of it and only allowing "proper" games/software to be listed in it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbers View Post
    How much do oculus do to curate their store? Are they actively keeping shovelware out of it and only allowing "proper" games/software to be listed in it?
    The Oculus store has user reviews and videos of just about every game. I dont know how much curation is really needed as VR takes enough effort to develop for and has a much smaller installed base as opposed to something like mobile with a huge user base where shovelware can really get out of control. As with all PC games, wait for sales as they happen frequently if in doubt of the quality of a title.

    If using a quest 2 - you can use the headset as a stand alone device or as a PC headset (wired or wireless). If using Oculus as a PC headset you can also use Steam VR in addition to the oculus (Rift) store.

    That's probably the most confusing thing about Quest 2. Making sure you know which version of the game you are buying. The Quest store is the store front for non PC versions, and the Rift/Oculus store has the Oculus PC store versions. and Steam often has those same games too, except the Oculus exclusives and you can only get the Steam exclusives via the Steam store. Star Wars Pinball VR is even more confusing. Star Wars Pinball VR has a steam VR version (PC) and a quest version (no PC needed). But it is NOT on the Rift store. And while it was on the quest store at one time searching for it doesnt bring anything up. I went to Zen's site and followed their link and it takes you to the Quest version page, but it doesnt allow purchasing, just allows wishlisting. Steam reviews are not kind. Maybe Oculus does curate games and they pushed out Star Wars Pinball VR as a result.

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    Senior Member Scared Stiff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun00 View Post
    That's interesting! I only watched a few seconds of the video. In that case, the physics on the elastics still need some work then. Especially, if they are using red rubbers.

    Fun Fact: Did you know that the rubbers on pinball machines are color coded? The lighter the color, the more bouncier they are. White rubbers are the most bouncey, red is mid range, and black is the least bouncey.
    No! I did not know that! That explains why the tables with white ones drive me crazy with all that bouncing!

  12. #37
    Senior Member shogun00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scared Stiff View Post
    No! I did not know that! That explains why the tables with white ones drive me crazy with all that bouncing!
    I only learned about it a few years ago, when I bought my first machine.
    Last edited by shogun00; 02-04-2022 at 11:27 AM.

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    If only I could pick stocks as well as I "predicted" what Zen was going to do with Pinball FX.

    To those wondering about physics, the new stuff isn't exactly just a rebranded Williams Physics. All the physics have been ported directly from FX3 to UE, but the new "Pro Physics" are tweaked versions of the old Williams Physics so they work with the original table designs while providing continuity across all table types. Will you be happy with the new physics when compared to the old Williams Arcade physics? Who knows... but it is good to see more people enjoying VPX.

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    For me it too little, too late. ZEN really killed my love for digital pinball. I bought all available tables on the WiiU, and later again on the PS4 platform.
    But with the long-standing bugs on some tables and the censorship on the consoles I recently decided to sell my PS4pro (which I actually only used for Pinball) and call it a day. Also looking at the new announcement, I don't see the the big advantage for the users of migrating to the new software plarform, except for ZEN being able to sell the same tables again.
    It was fun for as long as it lasted. Farewell ZEN.
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    Senior Member Scared Stiff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFHFony View Post
    For me it too little, too late. ZEN really killed my love for digital pinball. I bought all available tables on the WiiU, and later again on the PS4 platform.
    But with the long-standing bugs on some tables and the censorship on the consoles I recently decided to sell my PS4pro (which I actually only used for Pinball) and call it a day. Also looking at the new announcement, I don't see the the big advantage for the users of migrating to the new software plarform, except for ZEN being able to sell the same tables again.
    It was fun for as long as it lasted. Farewell ZEN.
    The big advantage is that not only will the graphics be better, but by not having to develop and maintain their own proprietary engine, they can devote time and resources to just the tables themselves which should help speed things up a little. There have been quite a few new tables released for Apple Arcade in a relatively brief amount of time, so I think it’s already helping. But time will tell on that.

    As for censorship on consoles, well, use the PC version then. No need to abandon ship completely.

  16. #41
    Senior Member Pinballwiz45b's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFHFony View Post
    For me it too little, too late. ZEN really killed my love for digital pinball. I bought all available tables on the WiiU, and later again on the PS4 platform.
    But with the long-standing bugs on some tables and the censorship on the consoles I recently decided to sell my PS4pro (which I actually only used for Pinball) and call it a day. Also looking at the new announcement, I don't see the the big advantage for the users of migrating to the new software plarform, except for ZEN being able to sell the same tables again.
    It was fun for as long as it lasted. Farewell ZEN.
    Pinball FX will not have any censorship on consoles going forward.
    It has to warm up...(MULTIBALL)...SO IT CAN KILL YOU!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scared Stiff View Post
    The big advantage is that not only will the graphics be better, but by not having to develop and maintain their own proprietary engine, they can devote time and resources to just the tables themselves which should help speed things up a little. There have been quite a few new tables released for Apple Arcade in a relatively brief amount of time, so I think itís already helping. But time will tell on that.

    As for censorship on consoles, well, use the PC version then. No need to abandon ship completely.
    Those tables all suck ass though.

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    Senior Member Scared Stiff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinballmonster View Post
    Those tables all suck though.
    No they don’t. The Garfield table is pretty good. Snoopy one not quite as good but the animations are really nice and it is super challenging. The Pinball Party is fun, and How to Train Your Dragon is good as well. Adventure Land is okay. I surprisingly liked the Trolls table too. But yeah, some of the others not so much, especially My Little Pony. Ugh. The worst.

    The only real negative I have (and something that probably is just unavoidable) is the file size for the app is absolutely huge. It’s been growing with each update and is up to almost 3gb now. That’s a lot to keep downloading with each update. I think the max file size in the app store is 4gb, so they don’t have a whole lot of room to grow and at some point will have some hard choices to make. Rotate tables out? Create additional apps? They will have to do something. Either that or just cease development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scared Stiff View Post
    No they donít. The Garfield table is pretty good. Snoopy one not quite as good but the animations are really nice and it is super challenging. The Pinball Party is fun, and How to Train Your Dragon is good as well. Adventure Land is okay. I surprisingly liked the Trolls table too. But yeah, some of the others not so much, especially My Little Pony. Ugh. The worst.

    The only real negative I have (and something that probably is just unavoidable) is the file size for the app is absolutely huge. Itís been growing with each update and is up to almost 3gb now. Thatís a lot to keep downloading with each update. I think the max file size in the app store is 4gb, so they donít have a whole lot of room to grow and at some point will have some hard choices to make. Rotate tables out? Create additional apps? They will have to do something. Either that or just cease development.
    They're simple, cartoonish, easy to design tables. The designs look more like careless doodles than actual, challenging tables with realistic physics. It's a cash cow, not pinball design.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinballmonster View Post
    They're simple, cartoonish, easy to design tables. The designs look more like careless doodles than actual, challenging tables with realistic physics. It's a cash cow, not pinball design.
    There has been a hint that some of the Apple exclusive tables may get a more advanced ruleset when/if they come to pinball FX so don't automatically dismiss them all (though My Little Pony still seems questionable as an IP)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinballmonster View Post
    They're simple, cartoonish, easy to design tables. The designs look more like careless doodles than actual, challenging tables with realistic physics. It's a cash cow, not pinball design.
    That's exactly what they are - gateway tables. Simple tables for a targeted customer base - a younger audience especially. That's what it's there for - try to build the next generation of pinball players, to not only expand the current base but also build it for the future.
    The cash cow thing is funny because wasn't one of overall purposes of real pinball tables and arcade machines in general was to eat up quarters and make money?😁

  22. #47
    Senior Member Scared Stiff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinballmonster View Post
    They're simple, cartoonish, easy to design tables. The designs look more like careless doodles than actual, challenging tables with realistic physics. It's a cash cow, not pinball design.
    It might be cartoonish, since you know...it’s based on a CARTOON, but I assure you that the Snoopy table is challenging. Quite challenging actually.

  23. #48
    Senior Member Scared Stiff's Avatar
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    Just an FYI...

    Zen will be updating us with pricing and release info tomorrow on the March edition of The Pinball Show! So more news is about to drop!

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    link

    So you buy tickets and then use tickets to get tables, which allows a bit of bulk ticket benefit at higher dollar amounts.

    $10 ticket set gets 2 non-legacy games plus 20 remaining tickets or 2 legacy games, 10 remaining tickets. Price doesn't seem crazy, as it was effectively 3 tables for $10 and now it is about 3 tables for $12ish. Most of the Williams tables appear to be available on release. Was hoping for some new Williams release (yes, we got Indy, but it has been a while).

  25. #50
    Senior Member zmcvay's Avatar
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    March 31st, sadly except for Indy you can't purchase tables with money, you have to buy tickets and turn those into table purchases.

    Purchase tickets in bundles of 100 ($9.99), 220 ($19.99), 575 ($49.99), and 1200 ($99.99)

    Pricing:

    Zen Original Legacy tables: 40 tickets

    Licensed Legacy tables (Universal, Star Wars, assuming Williams): 45 tickets

    All Pinball FX3 legacy tables (except Indy), are 33% off week 1. That includes legacy tables released later, they will be 33% off their first week.

    New Zen Original Tables: 55 tickets

    New Licensed Tables (includes Mandalorian and Classic Collectibles even though they released in VR a year ago): 60 tickets

    Premium Licensed (Curently only Indy): Special cases, currently Indy is $15, not included in Pinball Pass or available for purchase with tickets.


    Just putting the info out there. Have mixed feelings about it myself.

    Edit: Crunched the numbers and the $99.99 level should be just enough to get all the day 1 tables except for Indy, including the 33% week 1 savings.

    Edit: Just realized the list I was going off of from the Pinball FX FAQ had the tables "Williams JunkYard Williams Attack from Mars" and "Secrets of the Deep Rome". Adding 2 more tables puts it just over 1200 tickets, even with the week 1 discount.
    Last edited by zmcvay; 03-29-2022 at 10:50 AM.

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