[Kickstarter] What's a fair price to ask non-kickstarter punters for ST:TNG and TZ?

I sarcastically love how people who know they are getting their tables want them all to their selves for some kind of elitest benefit. I quit playing Battlefield 3 PC for the last 2 months because they thought it was a good idea to have a similiar program of "haves" and "havenots" , how would you like it if the standard version was released first? because the coding for the investors was special , you wouldnt like that now would you ? I'd LMAO if the so-called premium buyers who invested in the table , and wants their version to be more special than it already was planned out to be, had to wait longer than the schmucks who are going to just buy it . That would be "just desserts" NO sir, as people are saying here , the investors get the table free when it's available , the people who dont invest get the same table at the same time , when it's available , with dark modes , light modes , disco balls or whatever . FarSight knows not to distance it's fan base with elitest premiums , in the end we're all investors . For the record $5 for either STTNG or TZ is fair without being a two pack , because any other table packed with them would pale in comparison.

Backers are already compensated for their participation with several reward tiers. The purpose of the kickstarter is to fund the table's development so FarSight doesn't need to charge ANYONE, backer or not, the $30 per table that they would need without a kickstarter. I donated $50, and I may increase it if necessary to help reach the goal. But I did so without begrudging the people who didn't/won't pay into the program. This is for the betterment of TPA overall, the continued encouragement of FarSight's efforts, and other loftier purposes than simply decreasing the price for broke players.

That being said, I agree with SerenSeven that the premium tables will need to be offered individually. It should probably be set at $3.99 for the standard table and $6.99 for the pro version. I see no problem including the pro version as a purchaseable option to non-kickstarter players. After all, some new gamers will undoubtedly be attracted to TPA long after the kickstarter is complete, and Star Trek / Twilight Zone fans should have the option to pay more for a pro table even if they're late to the party. In the end, it gives FS more money to keep development going strong. Isn't that what we all want, anyway?

JoshuaKadmon said:

The purpose of the kickstarter is to fund the table's development

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Actually, they clearly state that the dev costs would be all down to FS. The kickstarter is purely for licensing costs.

JoshuaKadmon said:

$3.99 for the standard table and $6.99 for the pro version.

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I actually like this idea. Maybe $5 for the standard and yeah, $7 for the "pro". As they are special event, I might even go for the Pro, just because. But the Pro options don't warrant a $50 donation from me. I want the Pro + my tee shirt and mug for that kinda coin.

laughing_lunatic said:

Actually, they clearly state that the dev costs would be all down to FS. The kickstarter is purely for licensing costs.

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Pardon the mis-wording. I just see licensing as a fairly critical part of the development process, ya know?

laughing_lunatic said:

I actually like this idea. Maybe $5 for the standard and yeah, $7 for the "pro". As they are special event, I might even go for the Pro, just because. But the Pro options don't warrant a $50 donation from me. I want the Pro + my tee shirt and mug for that kinda coin.

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I'd be fine with $4.99 for the standard table. But individual tables often cost $2.99 or $3.99 if you purchase them outside of a pack, so it would be nice to see that a player-funded table would be brought down to the same cost as a result of our efforts, with the slightly more expensive pro option making up any virtual functionality that FS may profit from. It's a decent compromise, in my opinion. And for the record, I actually didn't notice that the pro version was included with a $50 donation until after the fact. Funny thing, I just wanted to hit the $40 mark to get the table for my iPad, XBox360, PS3, and PC without an additional cost and have the added incentive of seeing my name in the backer credits, but I slapped an extra $10 down for the heck of it. The fact that the pro version is given at that tier is just a bonus, in my mind.

By the way, I have a question regarding platforms and rewards. Currently, if you purchase a table on PSN, you can use it on both the PS3 and Vita. If you purchase a table on the iOS App Store, you get it for both iPad and iPod/iPhone. But, if you are awarded a PS3/iPad version for participating in the kickstarter, would you get to use that awarded table cross-platform in the same manner? Or would I still need to purchase iPod and Vita versions if I use my four free versions on PS3, XBox360, iPad, and PC? Just curious. I play this thing on waaayyy too many platforms anyway...

JoshuaKadmon said:

Pardon the mis-wording. I just see licensing as a fairly critical part of the development process, ya know?

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No worries. Wasn't trying to be a d*ck, you may not have known, is all.

JoshuaKadmon said:

By the way, I have a question regarding platforms and rewards. Currently, if you purchase a table on PSN, you can use it on both the PS3 and Vita. If you purchase a table on the iOS App Store, you get it for both iPad and iPod/iPhone. But, if you are awarded a PS3/iPad version for participating in the kickstarter, would you get to use that awarded table cross-platform in the same manner? Or would I still need to purchase iPod and Vita versions if I use my four free versions on PS3, XBox360, iPad, and PC? Just curious. I play this thing on waaayyy too many platforms anyway...

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Excellent point. I donated at the 2 versions level, one for my PS3, one for my XBOX. I assumed that the Viat one would be covered by me "free" PS3 version.

laughing_lunatic said:

No worries. Wasn't trying to be a d*ck, you may not have known, is all.



Excellent point. I donated at the 2 versions level, one for my PS3, one for my XBOX. I assumed that the Vita one would be covered by me "free" PS3 version.

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I would assume it does not work this way at all , as investors you are not in the same "deal" as a regular transaction , so investing in the KS and telling them to give you PS3 version, does not mean it adds it to your Vita store as free , same thing goes with apple devices . They offered one free version per $20 pledge , expecting 2 because of the offers in the store is unrealistic .

So, how will the actual transaction go down ? Would the PS3 version not be made available through the PSN ? But FS would have to ask the Sony peeps to make an exception for this one table, to not make it availabe to the Vita ?

I think you're probably right as it goes. That's OK, it's the PS3 version I want anyways, the Vita would have been a bonus. I don't play that much on my Vita.

Sinistar said:

I would assume it does not work this way at all , as investors you are not in the same "deal" as a regular transaction , so investing in the KS and telling them to give you PS3 version, does not mean it adds it to your Vita store as free , same thing goes with apple devices . They offered one free version per $20 pledge , expecting 2 because of the offers in the store is unrealistic .

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to cheat the system by getting 6 versions for free, but I think there will be an issue with the delivery of services through iTunes and the PSN Store if they intended on splitting the cost. If it works like a download voucher that you redeem online, I have a feeling it will work cross-platform as if you purchased the table. Like Lunatic said, trying to get Apple and Sony to make exceptions on DLC rules wouldn't be as simple as it sounds. They're already slow enough with update approvals and such...

Besides, if FS normally allows cross-platform unlocks on PSN/iOS for paid tables, why would it go to the extra trouble to make sure an awarded table doesn't get the same benefit? Wouldn't that sort of force you to pay for one of your two versions at full cost anyway? Would they really require you to use up two free versions for the expected cross-platform functionality? If that happens, oh well, but it seems like too much trouble to make sure players don't get "too much" for their reward. :/

Then again, something has screwed up before in my iPad-to-iPod validation, and I had to purchase four tables a second time, so who knows if those rewards will even work perfectly the first time they try it?!

laughing_lunatic said:

So, how will the actual transaction go down ? Would the PS3 version not be made available through the PSN ? But FS would have to ask the Sony peeps to make an exception for this one table, to not make it availabe to the Vita ?

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Since your FarSight login, Apple ID, PSN username, XBox360 gamertag, etc. don't necessarily match for clean delivery of rewards, I would imagine you will receive a form email at the address you provided with Kickstarter registration, allowing you to select which platforms you want to use, then receive a follow-up email with the necessary redemption codes. But that's 100% speculation based on what we know of DLC mechanics on the wide variety of TPA platforms.

Let's not forget that FarSight normally lists iPod/iPad/iPhone as a single platfrom under iOS, and I would not be surprised if redemption codes for Sony were also listed as PSN [PS3/Vita] on a reward selection form. It's just that they never list Sony's platforms this way otherwise, since it's important to realize TPA is sold on the PS Store as a true "PS3 Game" or "Vita Game", not as a PSN network title or Mini.

EDIT: I just read the Kickstarter reply email more carefully, and this is what it says:

"When your reward is ready, FarSight Studios will send you a survey via email to request any info needed to deliver your reward (mailing address, t-shirt size, etc)."

So at least part of what I said should be definite.

Do you feel that you would be less inclined to contribute to other Kickstarters if the table was offered at regular prices for non-backers?
OK, so what's a Fair Price to ask non-backers to pay?
2.50, as part of a pack?
2.50, stand alone?
$5.00, stand alone?
More than $5.00?
pricing is better left up to farsight than to someone like me...they know what they need to make it profitable (or even doable to a break even point)...the kickstarter was to cover licensing fees but many of us forget that they still have to buy the table, pay people to disassemble and scan it, then digitize it...so there are more costs involved than just the licensing...they gotta eat too ya know

Would you be OK with the table being included in a monthly pack, or does that "cheapen" the backer's investment?
doesn't matter to me either way...personally i would prefer to not have to pay again for tz if it was included in a bundle but if i have to then that's the way it goes...not like 5 bucks is gonna break me especially if it was bundled with another table i really wanted (black knight 2000 or firepower 2 for example)...as for cheapening the investment?...i invested in it so they could get the licenses...as for the rest see the comment above

Would you feel better about any of the above if the Kickstarter tables were offered a few months in advance to backers, before they were made available to the general public?
nah...it makes no difference...i'd rather them take the time to make sure the product is bug free and give everyone the best tables they can...i see no reason to make anyone wait...especially with all the hiccups the consoles have had...it would be in the company's best interest to get the "big tables" released to everyone a.s.a.p. so they can start a) getting a return on their investment and b) working on something new without having to worry about some kind of staggered release...just my .02 ...d.m.

diablomozart said:

pricing is better left up to farsight than to someone like me...they know what they need to make it profitable (or even doable to a break even point)...the kickstarter was to cover licensing fees but many of us forget that they still have to buy the table, pay people to disassemble and scan it, then digitize it...so there are more costs involved than just the licensing...they gotta eat too ya know

doesn't matter to me either way...personally i would prefer to not have to pay again for tz if it was included in a bundle but if i have to then that's the way it goes...not like 5 bucks is gonna break me especially if it was bundled with another table i really wanted (black knight 2000 or firepower 2 for example)...as for cheapening the investment?...i invested in it so they could get the licenses...as for the rest see the comment above

nah...it makes no difference...i'd rather them take the time to make sure the product is bug free and give everyone the best tables they can...i see no reason to make anyone wait...especially with all the hiccups the consoles have had...it would be in the company's best interest to get the "big tables" released to everyone a.s.a.p. so they can start a) getting a return on their investment and b) working on something new without having to worry about some kind of staggered release...just my .02 ...d.m.

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A) We're paying for the table licenses, not for FarSight's lunch plan.

B) Including premium tables in larger bundles is unlikely. At the most, FarSight MAY keep with their 2-table pack trend by offering a PHoF table with the Kickstarter-funded ones. If Pin*Bot is offered as a $1.99 download or in a 2-table pack with Twilight Zone for $4.99 (with TZ normally costing $3.99 by itself), that would make sense. That's how it worked with CftBL, right? What about Star Trek + Firepower or Space Shuttle? Even if you contributed to the Kickstarter, buying the other table by itself would only cost $1.99, so you would still save $3.00 or more per $10 donation.

C) There is no way FarSight would be dumb enough to offer Kickstarter-funded tables that far in advance for its backers. It wouldn't be good business, and that's not why we contributed in the first place. No one else has suggested such a plan, there's no precedent for it, and players that missed out on the Kickstarter would be alienated. No, just no.

The true TPA fans just want to keep things simple. Don't over-complicate the matter. Don't open yourself up to player complaints, software bugs, and other issues by trying to cater to different interests. We decide whether to donate or not, the project gets funded or it doesn't, and everyone gets the final product the same time and for the same price (aside from backer awards). K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple, Stupid!

We paid for the licensing, so I honestly feel that they should be the same price as the rest of the tables... pack them in with an updated table from the Williams or Gottlieb collections for $5.

Now if Farsight starts chasing other licensed machines and pays for it without a Kickstarter, then a higher price is justifiable.

I have no creditcard. TPA is cool and when one kickstarter tableprice not 200 ms points but 400 ms points that is ok for me or FS have a paypal account to spend.

I don't think it should cost more money. You don't pay more to play a licensed table in a pub. You don't pay more to buy other licensed video games. The licence is what drives the sales. The Star Trek theme should attract more buyers because of the cross over appeal.

Hinph said:

We paid for the licensing, so I honestly feel that they should be the same price as the rest of the tables... pack them in with an updated table from the Williams or Gottlieb collections for $5.

Now if Farsight starts chasing other licensed machines and pays for it without a Kickstarter, then a higher price is justifiable.

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I partially agree with those statements. Like I said previously, packing an updated PHoF table with the KS-funded one for $4.99 seems like a no-brainer to me, as it's a good way to incentivize the tables that many of us have played before. And even if you've gotten the FS one as a reward, the PHoF table would be a cheap addition to the collection purchased individually.

As for FS grabbing licensed tables without a Kickstarter, that's their choice, just as it is our choice whether to donate without expecting special treatment. If FarSight snags a license without player contributions, I still expect them to price them the same as other tables (no more than $3.99, individually) in good faith with its loyal fanbase. Especially since, if that happened, they probably got the license significantly cheaper than TZ or STTNG, or they may end up using excess funds from a previous Kickstarter. For instance, if they exceed the STTNG goal by $10,000 and decide to grab the two Elvira tables for, say $20,000, I would definitely expect them to absorb that extra $10k even if it doesn't make sense to start a new Kickstarter on that amount. Or if profits jump after the release of TZ and STTNG, and FarSight makes the call to release The Getaway despite a ZZ Top license that costs $15k (again, a figure I pulled OOMA), let's hope they can still keep the release below $3.99 for players. Know what I mean?

Hinph said:

We paid for the licensing, so I honestly feel that they should be the same price as the rest of the tables... pack them in with an updated table from the Williams or Gottlieb collections for $5.

Now if Farsight starts chasing other licensed machines and pays for it without a Kickstarter, then a higher price is justifiable.

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Again, the kickstarters help pay for the initial licensing costs, not the per-unit royalties. A table with major licenses like TZ is going to have a higher royalty rate than a minor-licensed table like Ripley's. Therefore TZ still needs to cost more than a standard table to be successful commercially.

Also keep in mind that there are at least 3,491 copies of the TZ table that FarSight will have to give out for free as rewards to backers, but the royalties will presumably still have to be paid on those "sales".

what the hell is a punter?

punter = customer

bavelb said:

Plus those backers that covered the licensing costs don't bring in any income from buyingt he tables as they get them as reward.

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That is actually a good point that I didn't consider. The kickstarter results in 2000 less "traditional" sales that Farsight would have got from a standard release table.

Interesting...

I think the main point people are making in this thread is that:

Kickstarter = philanthropism.

We participated in the kick starter to better the world of pinball by getting TZ and (hopefully) ST: TNG preserved for future.

On that point, I concede that my expectations are 100% readjusted.

Onwards and upwards fellow pinball philanthropists!