Will Farsight allow us to transfer our tables to the PS4 version when the time comes?

PiN WiZ said:

Also, many of you have brought up the PC version being evolved over time and you are correct...but it's not going to be free. When the PC version does finally come out, we will all have to purchase the PC version and all the tables once again (regardless of how many platforms we have already purchased The Pinball Arcade on) since NONE of our purchases on currently supported platforms will transfer over to the PC. It's funny how many are willing to pony up the cash for the PC version, but are reluctant to do the same for the PS4 and Xbox 720.

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No, it's not a reluctance to purchase for the PS4. It's that if you aren't gonna be getting a PS4 as soon as it comes out, and the writing is on the wall for the PS3 and it being supported long term by FarSight, time to jump ship for a format like the PC that will be supported for the future. I'm only ponying up for one format as is currently (no smart phone and the iPad is my wife's). And while I have Windows 8, I don't plan on buying that version of TPA either unless it is going to be the same as the PC build. I want to play on my TV through my PS3, I really do. But whereas we used to be only a month behind mobile, now we're 3. We still have no tourneys, there's the promise of 3D, but will that be for PS3 or PS4 now?

I'm fine with having essentially paid for a full price game and having all the tables I have now. But like I mentioned, say I don't get a PS4 till 2 years from now. By then, if I were to re-buy all that DLC in PS4 form, I'd be looking at dropping near $200, for 64+ tables. That's after having already spent that much on PS3 versions were I to continue as I have. People that play World of Warcraft, and have been doing so for the last 5 years, think they wanna think about how much they've spent in that time? Well, what if they were charged that amount of money upfront with the knowledge they'd be playing for 5 years. Bet the majority of them would balk and find some other things to spend the money on.

I've been through the double dip nightmare with movies. I had a very large LaserDisc collection, of which I probably replaced half with DVD. The thing that lessened the blow was that DVDs were so much cheaper than a LaserDisc. Now I buy Blu-Ray, but there has been very few DVDs that I've actually replaced. At one time I added up how much I had spent on LaserDiscs and then how much I had spent on replacing them, and the number shocked me. Like, I could have bought a car. That's why I don't do Blu-Ray double dips. My collection was built up over a very long period of time and so the money spent wasn't noticeable. That's TPA. If FarSight does half the social interaction things we're hoping for, having a lot of tables on the same system is going to be important. Being told to just keep your old console hooked up isn't going to be a viable solution. And most of all, if Zen does what I think they'll do, it'll be salt in the wound should FarSight not follow suit.

shutyertrap said:

...if Zen does what I think they'll do, it'll be salt in the wound should FarSight not follow suit.

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What, may I ask, do you think Zen is going to do for next generation systems?

Its not about reluctance to pay for the ps4/720 version, its the fact that once the next Gen hits, your purchases are essentially lost forever if there's no backwards compatibility in some form. With the PC version I'm fine with double dipping because I would have nothing to worry about.

I think it's obvious that when the PS4 and next gen XBOX come out that users will need to buy TPA again if they want to play on that system. That's how it works now if you want to play on 2 different platforms, why would it be any different in the future? The PS4 is not the PS3. Different hardware, different builds of the software. I originally bought Ratchet and Clank on the PS2. If I want to play it on the PS3 I have to buy the Ratchet and Clank HD Collection. Or if I want to play another PS2 game on PS3, I have to buy a copy on PSN. I don't get it for free and why should I?

I think the more interesting question concerns the PC version. Let's assume that TPA is released on Steam in the next month or 2. Will it essentially be the PS4 version (updated physics, dynamic lighting, etc...) or more like the current PS3 version? If there is a update in the future, will the PC users be able to upgrade free of charge, or will they have to purchase a new version of the software and DLC? There are no discrete platforms in the PC world like there are in the console world so will a purchase last forever (or until an incompatible version of the OS is released) or will we need to buy TPA2, TPA3, etc... as it evolves?

But if my digital purchases are down the tubes after a finite amount of years then why should I even buy something off the PS store in the first place? Say they stop making ps3s down the road and yours dies. Your only option would be to find an independent contractor that would be able to fix it for you, cause Sony certainly won't.

I've spent hundreds of dollars on digital content through the PS store, and I expect that I would be able to play it on my ps4 in some way, even if it's cloud streaming. That would require a constant internet connection but it's better than nothing at all. What good is a purchase history if you can't play anything 10 years down the road?

DarkAkatosh said:

But if my digital purchases are down the tubes after a finite amount of years then why should I even buy something off the PS store in the first place? Say they stop making ps3s down the road and yours dies. Your only option would be to find an independent contractor that would be able to fix it for you, cause Sony certainly won't.

I've spent hundreds of dollars on digital content through the PS store, and I expect that I would be able to play it on my ps4 in some way, even if it's cloud streaming. That would require a constant internet connection but it's better than nothing at all. What good is a purchase history if you can't play anything 10 years down the road?

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Sorry, I still don't understand your argument. They just stopped making PS2s. I've got tons of games for my PS2. What if it dies? Do I expect Sony or any of the creators of the games to fix my system or send me a new one? This goes for any console I can think of. Why would you expect special treatment in this case? Because it was a digital copy instead of a physical copy?

I look at it like this. If you were to switch from PlayStation to Xbox for the next generation you would not expect to be able to bring your games along with. So I kind of ignore for a moment that the PS3 and PS4 are from the same company and assume that I will not be taking my downloaded games with me to the new hardware. If later it turns out that I can play some then that's great.

I'm sure that both Sony and FarSight want to provide the best experience that they can on the PS4 but they also have to make money to stay in business. My feeling is that FarSight will probably come out with a new version of TPA for the PS4 and we'll have to buy it and the DLC if we want to experience the PS4 version of the game with all of its bells and whistles. However, I think Sony will provide a way for us to play most of our PS3 downloaded games on the PS4. But we will be playing the PS3 version of the game without any of the benefits of the PS4's capabilities.

crazyflipperfingers said:

Sorry, I still don't understand your argument. They just stopped making PS2s. I've got tons of games for my PS2. What if it dies? Do I expect Sony or any of the creators of the games to fix my system or send me a new one? This goes for any console I can think of. Why would you expect special treatment in this case? Because it was a digital copy instead of a physical copy?

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Why you bring up the ps2 is beyond me because that system was well before digital purchases were a thing. I'll make it simple for you. Digital purchases on consoles, at least how they are now, are glorified rentals because once the console is done with support, your purchases are lost forever unless you can somehow hack the system. I won't say anything else because id just be repeating myself.

I think all of this just highlights what a weird time we are in right now when it comes to our digital entertainment.

Old models of business no longer apply, but nobody has a grasp on what the new models are. Every time Apple updates iTunes, updates their OS, we obviously expect our music to follow right along, as it should. Well, apps and games wound up following you too, even when you switched from one iPhone to a newer one, or to an iPad, etc, etc. Let's face it, Apple and Android have changed the way we view games in this day and age. How we purchase them, how we play them, where we can take them, none of those models existed when the shift from PS2 to PS3 happened.

With regards to PS4, and I'm assuming the we'll find out the same for the 720, the architecture is very much PC based. So if FarSight is already developing for a PC, 9 tenths of the work will already be done. I think it is a very valid question to ask if the PC version will evolve organically or if it will need a TPA2 and 3. The mobile version seems to be evolving, and everyone is asking that there be a 'button' to allow the latest iPads and other tablets to run TPA and a higher capacity without it being an added charge. Plenty of game makers who's games depend on DLC have come up with models for importing older titles into the newest version of the game on this gen of consoles.

The can of worms has been opened, and that is why people expect what they are expecting. Shoot, Sony did itself opened the can by making the PS2 backwards compatible. Even now, there are a bunch of titles where if you buy it on PS3, you get it for free on the Vita. TPA (poor as that version is) is one of 'em.

As far as PS3 versions of TPA not working on PS4, no kidding. Look at it this way though...when I got Zen 2, it said it'd import over all my Zen tables. What it really did was check to see what I'd purchased, and then downloaded the new version. And again, I don't believe that FarSight should just give PS4 versions of tables away for free. I do think their should be a way to get a significant discount though. That will encourage people to continue purchasing as they already are, without the fear of the double dip costing them too much.

Your Ratchet and Clank HD collection came with 3 games, spiffy new graphics, and cost $40 as opposed to $150, the price for all 3 new when released on PS2. That's the kind of discount I'm looking for. Can you really argue with that? Obviously Sony's first party studios understand that asking people to purchase a title a second time shouldn't cost them the same, I expect this from other studios too.

DarkAkatosh said:

Why you bring up the ps2 is beyond me because that system was well before digital purchases were a thing. I'll make it simple for you. Digital purchases on consoles, at least how they are now, are glorified rentals because once the console is done with support, your purchases are lost forever unless you can somehow hack the system. I won't say anything else because id just be repeating myself.

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I think my PS2 argument is valid - unless you're assuming that Sony will be shutting down PS3 support on PSN when the PS4 is released. I see no reason why they would have to. They already have the infrastructure in place for PS3 and they are going to continue to have online support for the PS4. If they do shut it down, then yes, downloaded games are somewhat like glorified rentals. I'm not a huge supporter of digital content myself, but that's what we've got now and I won't spend time worrying about what might happen with it in the future. If online PS3 support ends, it wouldn't be a whole lot different from your PS2 dying on you except for the fact that you could possibly to track down a second hand PS2 to continue playing on.

I do like the idea of offering the PS4 version of TPA at a discount to users who have purchased the game on PS3. That would be somewhat similar to the situation where I can get remastered PS2 games on the PS3 at a lower initial cost. Whether or not that makes financial sense to Farsight, I have no idea.

DarkAkatosh said:

... That way I know that when the next generations of hardware come along, my money won't be flushed down the toilet and into the bowels of the sewers as what is the most likely scenario for PS3 > PS4 > PS5 and 360 > 720 > whatever.

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This may not be as much of an issue after the next gen since the consoles are moving the the x86 PC architecture. Backwards compatibility should be much easier going forward, assuming the market doesn't change drastically by the time we would be due for a PS5.

So I had a VERY long debate with a friend of mine over this topic tonight. He came firmly under the User Agreement contract we all essentially play every game under. Truthfully a lot of valid points were brought up by him, many of which echoed what has been said here. While I'm not gonna back down from my viewpoint, I do think I ultimately have to respect any game studio that chooses to merely move forward while not concerning themselves with the past. We paid for a product, they delivered. They don't owe anymore beyond that.

It's the exact argument I made to 360 owners complaining about not getting DLC. You didn't pay for a promise, you paid for what you got.

The license FarSight has with Williams and Stern does not currently cover next gen, as those hadn't been announced. I'm sure that's why Bobby wasn't able to come right out and say TPA would be out for the PS4 or NextBox. It's fairly inevitable it will, but also inevitable they'd put out the new versions of tables on the same kind of release schedule we see now, once a month. So yes, the collection would start all over again.

Sometimes having a buddy scream at you over dinner that you're being a whiny, entitled, little ***** has a way of opening your eyes a bit!

Big thumbs up for Zen giving all that updated content for free after we've already purchased the tables once. Another shout out to Zen because the new Star Wars tables are nice!

I'm kind of an old-school gamer, so if my current games don't function on the PS4 or 720 then I'll be much less likely to pick those consoles up until this generation starts to feel more like the PS2. If my already purchased content can flow then I'm much more likely to drop some $$ on the new consoles and start spending money on those newer games sooner.

What would be the point AS A BUSINESS to give a free product to existing customers? A product they spent money and man hours to produce ?

The consumer has the old version? really isn't a excuse , they already have provided goods and services on the PS3 or Vita .
The Ps4 is not backwards compatible 100% , the control configuration is now new, and to think that FarSight can survive on "good will" to their fans , really is
naive thinking . No, if the Pinball Arcade launches to PS4 it wont be free to PS3 owners and that includes the re-releases of the old DLCs .
If I get the PS4 , I would not expect that all my old games from my Sony Ps3 get a free ride.

With the PS4, I am definitely in the "you're gonna have to buy them again" camp. It wouldn't make business sense to just import the PS3 tables.

If I remember correctly, didn't Bobby mention "other projects" during his interview with Jeff. If those projects have nothing to do with the Pinball Arcade, you can bet FarSight is not making as much as they want on it. I know a lot of people complain about the price of the pro versions but if FarSight is doing them to make some extra money (ie profit instead of just paying the bills) then so be it. If I want operator controls for a particular table (Scared Stiff) I'll fork over the dough. If I don't care (TOTAN), I won't.

Another important question is "How long do you think FarSight will support the PS3 after the PS4 is launched?" I would would hope for at least another year because of the installed base. But to what level? They only have so big of a team. Platforms are gonna be arranged by priority with ios and android still at or close to the top. What do you think?

I probably went off topic a little but it's still relevant to the overall discussion.

Sinistar said:

What would be the point AS A BUSINESS to give a free product to existing customers? A product they spent money and man hours to produce ?

The consumer has the old version? really isn't a excuse , they already have provided goods and services on the PS3 or Vita .
The Ps4 is not backwards compatible 100% , the control configuration is now new, and to think that FarSight can survive on "good will" to their fans , really is
naive thinking . No, if the Pinball Arcade launches to PS4 it wont be free to PS3 owners and that includes the re-releases of the old DLCs .
If I get the PS4 , I would not expect that all my old games from my Sony Ps3 get a free ride.

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Who said anything about free?
I spent over $60 on DLC that might be deemed useless in a year.
Many of the tables still have the bugs they were released with and it's doubtful we will see them fixed on the PS3 at this point.

As many of you know, Farsight has already announced the PS4 version of The Pinball Arcade
http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2013...aign=Feed:+SCEEBlog+(blog.eu.playstation.com)

They could do something like this... People who already own the DLC tables can import them for free to The Pinball Arcade 2 (or whatever they call it). THEN... They could offer the enhanced PS4 touches for 50% of the table cost.

We could get our basic looking tables and if TPA2 is as amazing as they say we will most definitely want to upgrade them.

spoonman said:

Who said anything about free?
I spent over $60 on DLC that might be deemed useless in a year.
Many of the tables still have the bugs they were released with and it's doubtful we will see them fixed on the PS3 at this point.

As many of you know, Farsight has already announced the PS4 version of The Pinball Arcade
http://blog.eu.playstation.com/2013...aign=Feed:+SCEEBlog+(blog.eu.playstation.com)

They could do something like this... People who already own the DLC tables can import them for free to The Pinball Arcade 2 (or whatever they call it). THEN... They could offer the enhanced PS4 touches for 50% of the table cost.

We could get our basic looking tables and if TPA2 is as amazing as they say we will most definitely want to upgrade them.

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I'm not saying anyone did , but the OP title seems leading to the idea of it. Let's face it , the PS3 version is not going to be offered on PS4 , all new hardware architecture and they will have to code a new Pinball engine from scratch for PS4 . The same goes for the DLCs, the easiest soloution is to make a $39.99 version with most previous DLCs integrated in the newer game . Then you offer the newer DLCs for the game.

Sinistar said:

I'm not saying anyone did , but the OP title seems leading to the idea of it. Let's face it , the PS3 version is not going to be offered on PS4 , all new hardware architecture and they will have to code a new Pinball engine from scratch for PS4 . The same goes for the DLCs, the easiest soloution is to make a $39.99 version with most previous DLCs integrated in the newer game . Then you offer the newer DLCs for the game.

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Well, all I can say is I am a huge Farsight Pinball fan, but I will not be buying all of the same tables I just bought all over again in less than a year. I'm also hesitant to buy future PS3 tables until we know if it's going to be portable to the PS4.

Also, you know they won't be fixing any of the PS3 problems while working on the PS4 version.

spoonman said:

Well, all I can say is I am a huge Farsight Pinball fan, but I will not be buying all of the same tables I just bought all over again in less than a year. I'm also hesitant to buy future PS3 tables until we know if it's going to be portable to the PS4.

Also, you know they won't be fixing any of the PS3 problems while working on the PS4 version.

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The thing is, the PS4 was designed to be PC friendly , it shares standard PC hardware GPU and memory , very advanced GPU and memory but not unique . That means when they code the PC version , the PS4 version is going to be a easy port from that template . Unlike now , they wont have to use a dedicated PS4 team to code the ports , the transition from PC to PS4 should be smoother . Which is assuming they dont cock-up and use a Xbox 720 version to port from as a template.

I bought everything that I could for X360. Once that stagnated I bought a PS3 primarily to keep playing TPA, and I re-bought everything for the PS3. I wouldn't be too jazzed about having to buy everything again for the PS4, especially if it's an easy port. Again, props to the Zen folks for what they did. I can't imagine Farsight is hurting with how many devices people are buying for these days. IF they are hurting it certainly isn't my fault.

FS can do whatever they want, but if they choose the path that Zen decided against I won't be first in line to jump on the PS4 train.