BK2K feedback from a (somewhat nit-picky) owner

lio

New member
Jul 24, 2013
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Generally I'm very happy with how this recreation has turned out - BK2K has a special place in my heart (was the first table I ever played when I was a kid and is now also my first and only real table I own) so I'm a lot more picky here than on any other table recreation.
Overall it plays very much like my real game, so that's really good! Just the Skyway loop is way too easy which throws off the score... I'd say my score on a real BK2K is usually 1/4 of what I get in TPA.
I also like the visuals a lot - even though I would have prefered the medieval plastic set over the futuristic one (would be cool if that would randomly change just as the CV neon tube color!)
Also I'm really looking forward to seeing it in the updated engine with improved lighting!

Anyways, here's my -admitedly a little pedantic- list of "problems":

Gameplay:
-The Magna-Save magnet is too weak, on a real game it will pull back a (slow) ball that has almost reached the right outlane "last chance" insert (and balls swirl around a lot more violently until the magnet grabs them dead center).
-Skyway Loop shot are too easy, especially since even shots that don't make it all around count (balls that roll into the W-I-"N" lane often will still count as a made loop because they touch the gate) - ironically the easy loops make completing RANSOM harder because the ball does not fall into the W-I-N lanes nearly as often to complete WIN and light a RANSOM letter at the ramp.
-UPF exit "v-cutout" is not correctly modeled - to the physics engine this might just be cosmetic or might have an influence on gameplay - in any case a ball that drops from there can be trapped quicker by an upheld flipper on the real game, which makes it easier to score full score hurry-ups before the score starts depleting.
(-The real games I played tend to serve the VUK balls a little higher so an instant flip with the upper right flipper tends to send the ball up the ramp rather than around the loop.)
(edit: I guess I need to take that one back - I couldn't manage to do it yesterday but today I've managed to get plenty of locks directly from a VUK->UPF Flipper shot, the timing is a little different but it is absolutely possible)

edit: I noticed something really strange at the end of RANSOM mode: on a real game I don't plunge all 3 balls into play at the same time but always keep one in the shooter lane so that it is basically a "free" ball when all others have drained and the mode has timed out - here in TPA the ball I kept in the shooter lange was auto plunged into play right before RANSOM timed out?!


Sound:
-There a sound missing when you lock a ball - it's a weird sound that does not really resemble anything but it's missing in any case.
-the "collecting a "Hurry-Up" music" is too low in volume and sounds like a muffled recording - very unrewarding.
-the "you can do it" voice sample sometimes seems to get played once more even after you collect the hurry-up - never happened on my real game.


Visuals: [EDIT: if you rather look at pictures: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fk3oe7rj30jle78/hjDDcFygAl ]
-The bumpers look really bland which is terrible given their prominent space on the game (give them the red bumper texture from NGG at least).
[better yet: also model the bumper skirt geometry properly with the holes in them to fit the bumper body and bumper rings properly]
-Also the bumper caps have the wrong orientation - the caps should be rotated 90° compared to the metal pins that hold the bumper ring so that the cap screws holes are at 12 and 6 o'clock)

-Missing UPF metal hinges (quite big hinges to hold the UPF in place which should clearly be visible)

-Missing UPF rightmost 1-sided red rollover plastic lane guide at W-I-"N" (same red plastic guides that separate the other lanes but it only has one of the plastic "flaps" - the one that points towards the "N" lane).

-HUD Scoring elements are not "italic" like the score display on the backglass, why?

-Cabinet rails are slightly too thick (a common visual imperfection on a lot of TPA tables)
-Cabinet walls are not high enough - certain plastics would penetrate the glass the way it currently is

-Apron rails are all the same height even though they should slope upwards towards the cabinet sides (a common visual imperfection on a lot of TPA tables)

-"STDM" Rails below the flippers are a bit too thick.
Also you can see that the right one does not "stick" in the playfield where it is supposed to if you look at the playfield photo texture - either clean up the texture and remove that hole or put the rail where it really belongs.

-Wood Rails are too light/brown (real ones are more black'ish)

-UPF double starposts are too translucent and the red color of them should be a tad darker

-The Drawbridge has a strange brown line on its' top along the entire plastic that should not be there.

-Shooter lane ball guide metal texture looks like a really bad compressed grey color gradient jpg but not like a metal ball guide - also there should be a screw on it.

Texture Cleanups:
-Area below slingshot plastics (facing return lane): there should be a continous black line between the red and violet and not some cloudy clone brush stamp touch ups
-UPF Lock area shows switches and lock-kicker coil on playfield


Misc suggestions:
-RANSOM memory should carry over, even if you quit the table...

EDIT:
added a little dropbox gallery to better illustrate my visual "complaints" in comparison shots
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fk3oe7rj30jle78/hjDDcFygAl
The photo cutouts are not from my real game, I borrowed them from here: http://christopherhutchins.com/gallery/album350
 
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Shaneus

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Mar 26, 2012
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Wow. Thorough and interesting!

The only thing I can pull you up on is the last point... carryovers don't exist for any tables in TPA (there's a thread discussion about it in General). Dr. Dude and Black Rose, for example.
 

p6800

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May 17, 2013
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What this guy did is amazing! Simple point by point list of wrong things when comparing with his real machine. I would hope someone listens and goes over each minor visual thing to make it look as authentic as possible.

The bumpers on pc look horrible, not "bland"...

They had the pink hue thing going in the past, now it's the brownish/bland time... I don't understand how they look at the pc texture colors at the end and go: "Yeah, this looks ok.."
 

Shaneus

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Mar 26, 2012
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In the past? When was the last time you fired up TZ? Still has this bizarre hue, and let's not mention Taxi's pink ramps :/
 

p6800

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May 17, 2013
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It's not that they have fixed the pink stuff, they've just moved on to another hue! They call it "dark room". I'm all for it, but taxture colors came out dull, bland, dead! I remember they did something about the T2 head, when it was super pink at first... :)

Hope we get dx11 this year and all the tables will get a common sense hue makeover.
 

night

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May 18, 2012
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Great comparison shots Lio.
The 'brown line' is a light reflection on the edge of the black plastic!
The bumpers definetly needs work, for sure. (Taxi has good bumpers).
You PC/console guys are spoiled, I think the mobiles version is a graphic overdoses that could have been avoided if the playfield was toned down a bit and some shadows added. This would also have made the light fx brought out better as well. Anyways, graphic fixes like this on released tables seldom happen, I can't think of an example of that. But if it where up to me this table needs some work, because BK2K is an awesome table that needs awesome artwork. Season 3 started good, I hope Farsight can keep up the consistency.
 
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lio

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Jul 24, 2013
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The 'brown line' is a light reflection on the edge of the black plastic!

I don't think so - it's not along the edge but perfectly in the middle of the drawbridge's top.

You PC/console guys are spoiled, ...

That's the point of the PC platform ;-)

..., graphic fixes like this on released tables seldom happen, I can't think of an example of that.

I know... and it's a shame - and a lot of these small imperfections wouldn't even need to happen in the first place if they simply looked a little closer - it's certainly not more initial work to have the bumper caps rotated in the right direction or make the cabinet rails a little thinner and the walls a little higher... it's not more work, it's just paying closer attention - it's only more work if you need to fix it afterwards.
 
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p6800

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May 17, 2013
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I have very very little to no hope about where tpa is headed on pc. They can't seem to handle what's on the plate. Too many platforms, too much work, small team, limited time.

The only glimmer of hope is dx11. Maybe the textures will get better then.

Or maybe a TPA2, with two tables per month. One original and one rererelease, with higher textures, fixes etc.... :D
 

Shaneus

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Mar 26, 2012
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Looks like the table received some kind of update on the PC (the modified date is different), but the overlay score still looks nothing like the italicized original display.

Crazy thing is, it's STILL correct when looking at the score on the backbox in the flyover, but the actual one looks really chunky and dull as hell. If they're displaying it correctly on the model of the machine, why not just use that?
 

p6800

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May 17, 2013
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The bumpers still look very bad, and the wrong cap orientation is not fixed. With the strange "dark room mode" colors/hue, the ball is difficult to track on the lower playfield, still.

Fish tales is the last table with a decent feel. It all went downhill since black rose...
 

StarDust4Ever

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Jun 30, 2013
496
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I'm goingto counter your argument for a moment. There is a Black Knight 2000 table at my local laundermat. The flippers are so weak they can't even propel the ball high enough to hit the drop targets on the lower playfield, much less up the ramp. Basically I volleyed the pnball back and forth between the flippers very slowly until it drained. I think the high current coils are burned out in the flippers IMO. Needless to say, I was disappinted. BK2K on pinball arcade changed that for me. While I am sure every table has subtle differences between a pristine real life fully restored and 100% operational table, TPA is doing a great service to pinball fans everywhere. Yes I have played a few real tables that work well enough to enjoy, and there's nothing like the tactile feedback you get from all the solenoids and other mechanical bits, in additon to lighting and sound. It's like i can feel, hear, and see them working through the table. You miss a lot of that in TPA, but I'm okay with it. The current simulation in TPA is far better than going to a bar or laundermat and attempting to play a broken or barely working pinball machine that the operators can't be arsed to fix. Sad yes, but that's the impression many people get when pinball hunting in real life. It's a shame really.
 

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