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relaxation · May 27, 2016

Tann said:
As tilt warning is very sensitive in Zen (one nudge = one warning, two warnings = tilt), you have to be very cautious and synchronized (nudge at the right time, when the ball enters in contact with an object).

1) it's Danger, DANGER, Tilt, but Dangers timeout after a period of time
2) They don't always trigger a Danger if you can control the stroke of your nudges* **, meaning there is no tilt-bob mechinism
3) No one (maybe Twrecks) in the past did so because you needed your two dangers to bi-nudge a strong bangback, which had priority
*4) This example shows what you're talking about as well, if you nudge at the correct time during contact you get a fairly strong reaction
**5) Their nudge comes into effect after you leave its deadzone, while TPAs nudge will take any difference in position from point A&B
6) you have to return to the deadzone to be able to trigger another nudge
7) A combination of their deadzone, danger zone and the way diagonals are interpretted are also not the greatest
The line seperating dark red and red should be the maximum strength of a 2 directional nudge, compared to a one directional nudge it's pretty gimped but the one directional nudge is harder to perform in a pinch (a quick straight up motion)

sneakynotsneaky · May 27, 2016

kinggo said:
Or just start playing on mobiles and you'll see that the game is not so easy, no more endless EB or 48h marathon games.

As an Android only player, I kinda see how the marathon scores are possible on the DMDs. I feel like maybe, maybe I could achieve something like that given enough time and practice (except on Monster Bash, sheesh). But where I really feel stumped is on EMs. El Dorado EM I just cannot for the life of me see how 10m+ is possible. Those are the tables that give me pause and make me think that you must be right that there is a real mobile vs PC difference.

relaxation · May 27, 2016

I feel the most hazardous shot on Eldorado EM is the plunger. The lane down the left doesn't bother me, you just push the table into the ball at that bottom of the lane and it's fine but the plunger has shots that go straight down that right outlane or other risky outcomes. Best you can do is plunge it and have it bounce off the the upper flipper.. and never use that upper flipper.

JPelter · May 27, 2016

kinggo said:
except, playfield is physical object. Zen is video game where pinball is just a theme. How on earth would we save balls from deadly ramps/kickouts if playfield gets ignored????
Also, how can one machine be more easy or more difficult? Sure, they can change slope and make it faster, or widen outlines, or disable extra balls. But with that aside, no way. The solution is to improve physics and not something artificial. That would just make the game even more unrealistic. And we already have Zen.

Or just start playing on mobiles and you'll see that the game is not so easy, no more endless EB or 48h marathon games.

The point is that this is how actual pinball machines work. You can't change ball trajectory by nudging unless the ball is touching a playfield feature, unless you slide the entire table out from under the ball, which is generally not something you can get away with without a tilt unless you're a real pro/playing a table with a really insensitive tilt.

sneakynotsneaky · May 27, 2016

JPelter said:
The point is that this is how actual pinball machines work. You can't change ball trajectory by nudging unless the ball is touching a playfield feature, unless you slide the entire table out from under the ball, which is generally not something you can get away with without a tilt unless you're a real pro/playing a table with a really insensitive tilt.

Could you clarify what you mean here? We're talking about a ball just rolling down the middle empty part of the playfield for example, right? A nudge on a real machine is absolutely going to change the trajectory of the ball. Precisely by marginally moving the table while the ball maintains its prior trajectory. Obviously nothing like the extreme exaggerated change of path in TPA, but it is definitely possible to do a marginal and useful version of the same idea on a real machine without tilting. Unless I'm missing something.

sneakynotsneaky · May 27, 2016

relaxation said:
I feel the most hazardous shot on Eldorado EM is the plunger. The lane down the left doesn't bother me, you just push the table into the ball at that bottom of the lane and it's fine but the plunger has shots that go straight down that right outlane or other risky outcomes. Best you can do is plunge it and have it bounce off the the upper flipper.. and never use that upper flipper.

Great, now you've got me playing the table again to see about this.

I've never had an issue with the plunger FWIW. Just that "stuff happens" on El Dorado (which I picked just for example) that eventually is going to bite me.

JPelter · May 27, 2016

sneakynotsneaky said:
Could you clarify what you mean here? We're talking about a ball just rolling down the middle empty part of the playfield for example, right? A nudge on a real machine is absolutely going to change the trajectory of the ball. Precisely by marginally moving the table while the ball maintains its prior trajectory. Obviously nothing like the extreme exaggerated change of path in TPA, but it is definitely possible to do a marginal and useful version of the same idea on a real machine without tilting. Unless I'm missing something.

In my experience that is in fact not going to happen at all.

kinggo · May 27, 2016

JPelter said:
The point is that this is how actual pinball machines work. You can't change ball trajectory by nudging unless the ball is touching a playfield feature, unless you slide the entire table out from under the ball, which is generally not something you can get away with without a tilt unless you're a real pro/playing a table with a really insensitive tilt.

LOL, just...... LOL
Did you ever play real machine?

edit: and one more LOL for the statement above.

Seriously dude, are you trolling or what?

JPelter · May 27, 2016

kinggo said:
LOL, just...... LOL
Did you ever play real machine?

edit: and one more LOL for the statement above.

Seriously dude, are you trolling or what?

I'm trying to figure out what the point of this post is, and drawing a blank. Please do elaborate.

sneakynotsneaky · May 27, 2016

Aside from anything else this is the whole premise of slap saves and slide saves.

JPelter · May 27, 2016

sneakynotsneaky said:
Aside from anything else this is the whole premise of slap saves and slide saves.

Slide saves yes. Slapping the machine doesn't do anything to the ball trajectory if it's on the open playfield.

invitro · May 27, 2016

JPelter said:
I'm trying to figure out what the point of this post is, and drawing a blank. Please do elaborate.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with him or you, just adding...

Consider the slap save, and related maneuvers that push a flipper sideways, so that the flipper moves under a ball that is moving down the playfield. These are common things that use only gentle nudging, and don't use an object to push the ball.

kinggo · May 27, 2016

elaborate what? Basics of physics from elementary school?
Ball is physical object that rolls on the playfield that is also physical object. Theres some friction between them. Ball has its own momentum. Table has its own. Slight bump will definitely change the position of the ball on the table because friction is very small and that will change its initial trajectory. To do what you see on PC version of TPA you do have to throw machine out of its place and tilt. But in slight bumps and small changes lies everything unpredictable about pinball.

JPelter · May 27, 2016

invitro said:
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with him or you, just adding... Consider the slap save, and related maneuvers that push a flipper sideways, so that the flipper moves under a ball that is moving down the playfield. These are common things that use only gentle nudging, and don't use an object to push the ball.

The flipper is in this instance the object that exerts the sideways force of the moving cabinet onto the ball, not the playfield itself.

relaxation · May 27, 2016

I think the lack of any organized thread explaining all the interactions you can have with the ball in this game is a hinderance to communication. I feel other players may not be aware of all their available tools, or lack of, in their platform of choice.

I could make that thread, after TX-Sector is released, but it'll take some time to: prep before recording, edits, voice over and upload each individual video to a playlist.

I don't know of all techniques yet, I haven't put in work on how to take a ball from the outlane and slide save(?) it into the flippers like I think I've seen pinballwiz45b do or mr bowen during his dead_flip visit, when he said what he performed wasn't a death save.

Tann · May 28, 2016

relaxation said:
2) They don't always trigger a Danger if you can control the stroke of your nudges* **, meaning there is no tilt-bob mechinism

Thanks for this very informative post about nuding in Zen.

I don't use the analog stick to nudge for a simple reason: nudging is inverted in Zen! (unlike TPA). When you push the stick to the right, the ball goes to the right (maybe it's because the nudge doesn't affect the ball when it's in the open, only when the ball is in contact with an object, so it makes more sense to press right to make the ball goes to the right - but IMO, it's highly counter-intuitive).

It's too hard to forget my stick-nudging habits coming from TPA, so instead, I use the D-Pad to nudge in Zen (Up direction, Up-left, Up-Right, most of the time). So there's no deadzone, it's a full nudge each time (but sometimes, a very (very) slight press on the D-Pad does not trigger a Danger).

kinggo said:
LOL, just...... LOL
Did you ever play real machine?

I understand what JPelter means. On a real pinball machine, modify the ball trajectory going SDTM like in TPA, would require to slide the table itself, not just slap it.

kinggo · May 28, 2016

that's not what he said.

JPelter · May 28, 2016

kinggo said:
that's not what he said.

That is in fact exactly what I said. You can just go back up the thread to confirm this.

kinggo · May 28, 2016

JPelter said:
The point is that this is how actual pinball machines work. You can't change ball trajectory by nudging unless the ball is touching a playfield feature, unless you slide the entire table out from under the ball, which is generally not something you can get away with without a tilt unless you're a real pro/playing a table with a really insensitive tilt.

JPelter said:
Slide saves yes. Slapping the machine doesn't do anything to the ball trajectory if it's on the open playfield.

no STDM saves in sight, just absolutely false claim that slight nugde on open playfiled doe not have impact on ball trajectory.
By your logic, if slight nudge does not change ball trajectory on open playfield how it is supposed to bounce (more) of some other vertical object if it doesn't change position in relation to playfield?

JPelter · May 28, 2016

kinggo said:
no STDM saves in sight, just absolutely false claim that slight nugde on open playfiled doe not have impact on ball trajectory.
By your logic, if slight nudge does not change ball trajectory on open playfield how it is supposed to bounce (more) of some other vertical object if it doesn't change position in relation to playfield?

I'm having trouble parsing what you're asking. The reason nudging works in pinball is because when the ball is next to an object on the playfield, and you shake/slap the machine, the entire momentum of the machine is transferred through the playfield object onto the ball, causing the object to hit the ball in whatever direction you're nudging. If the ball is out on the playfield there is nothing to transfer that momentum onto the ball, and the only way to move the ball relative to the playfield is to slide the entire table out from under the ball. This does not happen in regular nudging, only when forcefully sliding the entire machine to the side. I hope this helps.

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