Farsight, we're breaking up - It's not me, it's you...

Needed a thread to continue a convo with Jared which could have high jacked another.

We we're discussing limitations in the Farsight TPA mobile platform.

The biggest negative re TPA has been quality. But also Inconsistent camera angles, bugs, bugs not being fixed, scripting issues going unfixed, cost per table, and settings which should be inclusive and adjustable either being charged as a premium, or locked off and ignored.

The positives for Farsight is they own some of the most attractive table licenses going to Pinball fans.
Why they largely ignore and don't revisit these tables amazes me and is why they've lost my business personally.

If they gave access to camera and physics settings, to allow users to tweak bounce, flipper strength, camera's I'd imagine I'd still be buying.

Back to Zacc for me.

You have to wonder why they haven't released another whole platform that does everything far more efficiently than it has in the past. My theory as to why this hasn't happened (yet) is that they were potentially waiting for the new GUI to be implemented, then everything else would slot in on top. But FS being FS, other things took priority and the new GUI got left in the dust.

Just look at DX11 on PC. It was coming. Then another platform got introduced (that had nothing to do with lighting, probably). Then it was waiting for the PS4 release. Then it was waiting for the Xbox One release. Now it's still being tested, with it possibly (or possibly not) coming out this week.

I'm sure they had every intention of creating a more optimised platform (and we even saw a little bit of it with their advanced shading mode, before that was yanked due to horrific performance on every device), but for now it appears they're happy to remain stagnant with every new table looking as flat as the last. It has to be only a matter of time before people see what other devs are doing on mobile with pinball games (ASK, Pro Pinball, Atomic) and realise they're being short changed when being charged $8 for something that looks like a mobile game from 5 years ago.

It'd be cool if Farsight would somehow work out a deal with the Zacc guys so that they could do all the EM's on the Zacc engine. Maybe it could be a separate app or something where they split the revenue.

Jeff Strong said:

It'd be cool if Farsight would somehow work out a deal with the Zacc guys so that they could do all the EM's on the Zacc engine. Maybe it could be a separate app or something where they split the revenue.

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about the same thing.
Farsight get the license and handle rom emu, Ask provide physics lighting and sound.

Jeff Strong said:

It'd be cool if Farsight would somehow work out a deal with the Zacc guys so that they could do all the EM's on the Zacc engine. Maybe it could be a separate app or something where they split the revenue.

Click to expand...

Jeff what a great idea,how fantastic that would be.FARSIGHT take note !!! i love all your tables ,can you imagine having ZACC`S tables as well !!!AGAIN GREAT IDEA JEFF !!!

Baron Rubik said:

I've been thinking about the same thing.
Farsight get the license and handle rom emu, Ask provide physics lighting and sound.

Click to expand...

wolfson said:

Jeff what a great idea,how fantastic that would be.FARSIGHT take note !!! i love all your tables ,can you imagine having ZACC`S tables as well !!!AGAIN GREAT IDEA JEFF !!!

Click to expand...

And with the EM's, they wouldn't have to worry about ROMs, so maybe that could make it even more enticing for Farsight. Less work, more revenue because there are so, sooo many EM's just waiting to be done.

The discussion in the Zacc thread really has got me thinking about how TPA will remain current graphically in today's competitive games market. When TPA was released, Zen was the only other real competitor. But with ASK Homework coming onto Android, the landscape has been shaken up big time.

The way I see it, the pros and cons as I see them for FarSight are:

Pros:
* Licenses to reproduce popular manufacturer tables.
* Developers that listen, engage with community, and do as much as they possibly can do with the constraints they must work to.
* Season 3 and 4 quality dramatically improved over Season 1 and 2 (or the Dual Table Pump and Dump Era as I'm now calling it).

Cons:

* Cameras that are not customizable (+1 Baron) [1].
* Graphics engine that is not performant enough to allow the devices of today to benefit from a graphics package meeting today's standards.[2] [3]
* A UI (and subsequently UX) that tarnishes the overall quality of the product. [4]
* With great regret, most of the other things that Baron has mentioned. [5]
* Spending resources on rebooting side-projects when the effort could directly benefit the mothership.

It's really tough being an early adopter of the franchise and seeing the production schedule constraints affecting long-standing bugs on Season 1 and 2 Tables. I know its nothing I have any control over (except for writing verbose, slightly ranty posts like this), and with the DLC release cadence precedent set it is unlikely anything is going to change soon unless the development and art team could double in capacity.

[1] Having played Zaccaria, this is a surprisingly awesome feature.

[2] Taking a look at the latest developments that Zacc is publicly revealing in their sub-forum makes me agog with amazement that their product is actually running on Android and iOS, and not a very, very powerful PC. 0_0

[3] FarSight should totally do some stalking on the Free Android version of Zacc and prepare to be astounded at what this small Hungarian company has been able to accomplish. ASK's success can be attributed to making the hard call to focus effort and perfect on one platform then migrate to others. I wonder if FarSight would reconsider their approach with 20/20 hindsight.

[4] I know, I'm unapologetically a broken record about this. It's important for FarSight to compete with the UX of Zen and Zaccaria. TPA doesn't come close at the moment unfortunately.

[5] Except maybe for the cost per table issue. I'm happy paying the cost per table (about 2.5 plays of an actual table here in Australia). Season Passes make it equivalent to attending two Tournament events for me here ($15 a piece, without beers and a counter lunch).

I think Zacc should stay away from FarSight as far as possible and fight it's away to the top with their own plan. Enough cool tables from less-know pinball manufactures have been suggested they could emulate. I vote for an ASK Retro Pinball Arcade.
Leave Farsight where it want's to be; in their ivory tower.

night said:

I think Zacc should stay away from FarSight as far as possible and fight it's away to the top with their own plan. Enough cool tables from less-know pinball manufactures have been suggested they could emulate. I vote for a ASK Retro Pinball Arcade.
Leave Farsight where it want's to be; in their ivory tower.

Click to expand...

I get where you're coming from and wouldn't wish Farsight upon Ask if it weren't for my imagination showing me what could be done by Ask with access to Farsights Rom emu tech & licencing.

Jeff Strong said:

And with the EM's, they wouldn't have to worry about ROMs, so maybe that could make it even more enticing for Farsight. Less work, more revenue because there are so, sooo many EM's just waiting to be done.

Click to expand...

70's / 80's is my favourite Pinball era.

All credit to Farsight, one thing they do very well is rom emulation which works and fits on mobile platforms.
Imagine some of the big licenses done properly.

I'm taking a "TPA" sabbatical. Don't get much time to play games these days. Presently Zac is my go to Pinball App - have been very impressed with it. I played a little bit of the Adams Family post beta but then Zac came along and I've been hooked since.

I know I will be back to TPA as its a great game, but I feel a little saturated with tables at the moment. I don't play half the ones I've got. Fingers crossed Farsight can get some new features in and address some more of the long standing bugs.


For accessibility and regularity of updates : Android has become my platform of choice. Binned PC and Xbox for now.

Just to add to FS's pro's list. The ball physics still feel more real to me. Well, only by a tiny tiny bit. After tinkering with the physics on ASK, it's right where it needs to be for me. There's some wonky physics around the flippers. Not bad at all, just could be tuned a little bit better. And at the rate ASK is going, it'll be damn near perfect in no time. Another pro for FS is the nostalgia factor. I don't hear of many people that have played Zacs before, but maybe I should've said FS has MORE of that. For example, I'd buy a 'not so great' table just for the fact that I've played it before.

I'm in the same boat as you guys. ToTW has kept me going back to FS, but I'm still playing Zac more. I can't get enough of Combat. Well, it's great to even just jump from table to table.

Here's a funny little story that proves the point that FS is still good, but they're losing it...
So a coworker and I got to talking about pinball. He mentioned that he used to play a lot of it at a different job. So I busted out my phone, and he was stoked to play a few that he had played IRL before. And then I showed him ASK, and he was blown away. So the moral of the story is... (And I'm assuming this is true with more than just that guy) Newcomers to real pinball apps are going to gravitate towards Zac because it just looks so much better, unless they've actually played a few of the more popular tables. And then they'll like both apps about the same. So yeah, FS better step it up if they want to get more customers.

Just thought of another pro for FS, and that's more variety. With 55+ tables at the moment, it'd be hard not to find at least one to play. Thing is, people are lazy and don't wanna scroll through. And that's where the UI comes in. Also, it really should be made more clear what the free table of the month is. With that coworker of mine, I said, oh and if you don't feel like paying, they have a free table of the month and I could keep you informed every month. It really shouldn't be like that. And one more thing, still love ya FS! You're my boy Blue!

You can see where were going here, FarSight. We love you, but some hard truths are starting to emerge that if left unchecked just might hit harder than expected/predicted.

Please don't let it get to that. Please stay relevant and current.

Just thought of 2 more things FS has over Zac IMO
-tournaments
-goals

(These are 2 of the main reasons my loyalty is still with TPA)

Edit: even though those 2 things are great, at the same time they suck the fun out of it. Tourneys- ugh, better play constantly til I get a score in satisfied with... Goals- ugh, better go for this impossible goal again. So even though those things keep me coming back, they are also just too much of a task. There's not a whole lot FS can do about that I guess. Tourneys would be so much better if there were only 'x' amount of tries though.

I guess I've just learned to enjoy TPA for what it is, and try not to think too much of what it could have been. The thrill is definitely long gone, though.

I'm only speaking for the iOS and/or android users. It seems we've lost that 'spark'. Maybe it's time for couple's therapy.

I am somewhat speechless to read about the comments on TPA's graphics.. You guys should have joined me in my efforts for better quality graphics 1,5 years ago.
Probably TPA was for many a too sensitive subject to be criticised. If Farsight had their bugs fixed and graphics where done by a professional team we could have had a comparable quality as what ASK brings us to the spotlights. Now it's too late, Farsight will never catch up, too many tables, too many platforms. Too late.

Totally agree with everyone in this thread. Zacc has certainly shaken things up and shown us what advanced lighting can really do for a game. I can't see myself ever giving up on TPA, just becuase these are the tables I know and love. While I do enjoy EM's, I still prefer the late 80's tables and up. Alpha and DMD ar ethe tables I really love to play.

I totally understand that the tables FarSight makes are much more complex, and have to actually run the ROM that takes up resources. However, TPA played fine on my old Galaxy Nexus and original Nexus 7. Hardware has improved a lot since then, so I would think they would be able to run the ROM and be able to use some advanced lighting techniques. I play on both Android and Xbox One. While X1 definately has improved lighting, quite frankly I was expecting much more. After seeing what zacc has upcoming, I would give Zacc the graphic edge even over X1. That is just sad.

The inconsistent camera angles are another glaring weakness of TPA. I was playing with my wife a few days ago (who is not much of a pin fan), but she even would comment that some tables seem to far away, and some look to have a much lower angle. It just seems very inconsistent an makes the product seem like a collection of individual tables and not a cohesive product.

The UI is just so dated. Especially on consoles, it really looks bad. They have been talking of a new UI for years. We need it now!

The various bugs that get reported and go unfixed is antoher heaed scratcher. I know the casual users probably never would notice a lot of these, but us true fans know they are there and it is just one more thing that brings down TPA.

I do love the physics and tuning of the TPA tables. Especially seasons 3 and 4 have really great physics. That said, I would welcome further improvement in this area as well.

I realize the money is probably not there to go back and really polish these tables to the level we all would like to see, but they need to figure something out. They obviously have a fan base that is willing to pay for big licenses. I know i'd be willing to pay a couple dollars to get an enhanced version of the existing tables. It seems FarSight is looking for other revenue sources, with the recent Ghostbuster pinball, the bowling game, and them floating the idea of real money touraments. But all we fans wants is these pins recreated in the most accurate, beautiful way possible.

Zacc has really raised the bar for what tables can look like on Andorid. And I have yet to even try the new ProPinball. Hopefully, Farsight can find a way to give us what we really want... But until they do, at least we have other options.

Sean DonCarlos said:

I guess I've just learned to enjoy TPA for what it is, and try not to think too much of what it could have been. The thrill is definitely long gone, though.

Click to expand...

I'm in the same boat... I only wish TPA having a consistent camera angle. I remember reading years ago here those inconsistent camera angles were hand tuned for good. I dare to ask how good is the camera 4 of El dorado for instance, tho.

haj said:

I'm in the same boat... I only wish TPA having a consistent camera angle. I remember reading years ago here those inconsistent camera angles were hand tuned for good. I dare to ask how good is the camera 4 of El dorado for instance, tho.

Click to expand...

Going back and making all camera consistent would be one thing that probably wouldnt take too much time, and would make a huge difference in presentation. It definately is a glaring issue.

Indy99 said:

Going back and making all camera consistent would be one thing that probably wouldnt take too much time, and would make a huge difference in presentation. It definately is a glaring issue.

Click to expand...

Custom cams would be better. And easily doable judging by the private user who created his own camera hack for pc.