Time For a New Round of "Official" Polls?

Season 3 is well underway now, and many of the previous poll winners, runners up, and top choices have already found their way into The Pinball Arcade.

So, I'm wondering if now would be a good time for the forum to revisit the Williams, Bally, Gottlieb/Premier, Data East, and Stern polls, now that a number of the tables in those polls are no longer eligible to be voted on (as they're in TPA).

As we play other tables on TPA and even actual tables in real life, our opinions of some tables may have changed. I know there is one table in particular that I did not vote for before, but having played it for the first time in person at a recent arcade expo, I am just dying to see it get added to TPA!

The first set of poll data has pretty much sustained TPA for 3 seasons. If you look at what has been released, it's pretty clear that the polls' results have been the absolute best indicator as to what FarSight will end up releasing. I think it's definitely time to consider a new batch of polls with fresh data for FarSight to consider.

What do you guys think?

Yearly polls sound like a good way to get the point across.

There is no reason to break up the polls by manufacturer. This loses information, mainly that WMS machines are vastly preferred over Gottlieb and DE/Sega machines, and I am afraid that putting Gottliebs in their own poll was partly responsible for that run of them at the end of Season 2. It seems that the community really, really does not want that to happen again.

I enjoyed the Gottlieb tables. *shrugs*

invitro said:

There is no reason to break up the polls by manufacturer. This loses information, mainly that WMS machines are vastly preferred over Gottlieb and DE/Sega machines, and I am afraid that putting Gottliebs in their own poll was partly responsible for that run of them at the end of Season 2. It seems that the community really, really does not want that to happen again.

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Exactly.

It was a shame seeing really good tables like High Speed, Jack * Bot, Hurricane, and Banzai Run to name a few not make top 10 meanwhile Street Fighter 2 did. I have nothing against Gotlieb, I love ALS Garage Band, Haunted House, and thier amazing EM library but when Premier purchased the Gottlieb name they made some pretty bad tables under that banner, -a few of them already snuck (more like stunk) their way into Pinball Arcade and I would hope that doesn't happen again. Combining polls would be a good way to prevent that.

I already made a "best of what's left" thread but it was a little too wordy and didn't get any traction. I say lump all the best no licensed stuff into one poll and have us pick a Top 20.

I think there is a limit to how many items can be listed in a poll (30 I think) so they had to be split somehow.
And the reason for all the Gottliebs at once is because the Ball/Williams license had to be renewed. So it's a good thing there was a Gottlieb poll or you could have seen even less popular Gottlieb pins (yes they exist).

I wish they had taken the 40 tables from the Williams, stern, Bally and gottlieb polls and did a top ten from that. I would bet that not more than 3 non WMS tables would be in it in the weirdest case circumstances.

The thing is, that this results in an all Williams collection. There are many that want Bally Gottlieb and Stern tables to make an appearance. I agree that having 6 Gottliebs in a row was kind of a chore to get through, but at least we can leave them be as Gottlieb is well represented now, at least numerically. Definitely need more DE/SEGA/STERN tables in the mix and a few more Ballys

When I write "WMS", I mean Williams or Bally. Sorry, this was the common convention in the good old days. Maybe I should stop doing that.

"I think there is a limit to how many items can be listed in a poll (30 I think) so they had to be split somehow."

What about just splitting them randomly?

I would support this: identify 180 non-licensed tables. Use the IPDB and Pinside rankings as a start. Add the tables that have gotten the most support in polls here. I would require at least five EMs, but probably not any more. Then just split the 180 tables randomly into six polls of 30 machines. Have a final poll with the top five from each poll.

invitro said:

There is no reason to break up the polls by manufacturer. This loses information, mainly that WMS machines are vastly preferred over Gottlieb and DE/Sega machines, and I am afraid that putting Gottliebs in their own poll was partly responsible for that run of them at the end of Season 2. It seems that the community really, really does not want that to happen again.

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In all likelihood, FarSight probably are already aware of this. I've complained about their management of TPA in the past, but nobody can deny that they have a passion for what they do, so they are surely aware of how much more most pinheads like Bally/Williams solid-state pins than their DE/Sega & Gottlieb counterparts.

PinballLizard said:

It was a shame seeing really good tables like High Speed, Jack * Bot, Hurricane, and Banzai Run to name a few not make top 10 meanwhile Street Fighter 2 did. I have nothing against Gotlieb, I love ALS Garage Band...

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Hang on a sec there, buddy–Al's Garage Band is actually an Alvin G. machine, not a proper Gottlieb (though I think it beats most 1992-era Gottliebs hands down).

invitro said:

When I write "WMS", I mean Williams or Bally. Sorry, this was the common convention in the good old days. Maybe I should stop doing that.

"I think there is a limit to how many items can be listed in a poll (30 I think) so they had to be split somehow."

What about just splitting them randomly?

I would support this: identify 180 non-licensed tables. Use the IPDB and Pinside rankings as a start. Add the tables that have gotten the most support in polls here. I would require at least five EMs, but probably not any more. Then just split the 180 tables randomly into six polls of 30 machines. Have a final poll with the top five from each poll.

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That's a good suggestion, but I have an alternative one: re-run the Bally, Gottlieb, Premium Licensed, Stern/Data East/Sega & Williams polls, replacing those tables that have made it into TPA or proven difficult to get the necessary rights for as needed (I'm aware that I left EMs out of this; perhaps we can alternate Gottlieb's EMs and solid-state machines on a seasonal basis). After that, take the top 10 from each poll, allowing 3 votes each for the Bally and Williams top 10s, 2 for the Stern/Data East/Sega top 10 & 1 each for the Gottlieb and Premium Licensed top 10s, with the top 3 Ballys, top 3 Williams, top 2 Stern/DE/Segas, top Gottlieb and top Premium Licensed table being the 10 tables we get for Season 4 and being released in reverse order of the sum of votes received in the two polls (coincidentally, this should also solve the matter of preselling season passes, as the 10 tables will all be known in advance). This arrangement, IMO, strikes a good balance between pleasing hardcore Bally/Williams fans and letting other manufacturers have their moments in the sun, but what do you guys think?

I think if Farsight stick with the 1 table a month, as it`s in season 3 and give us great quality tables, is fine with me. what about every 6-12 months Farsight do a 4 pack of the older style tables like sorcerer,ace high and similar tables for us older mugs like me !!!!

wolfson said:

I think if Farsight stick with the 1 table a month, as it`s in season 3 and give us great quality tables, is fine with me. what about every 6-12 months Farsight do a 4 pack of the older style tables like sorcerer,ace high and similar tables for us older mugs like me !!!!

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A 4 pack containing Jive Time, Sorcerer, Ace High & Strikes n Spares (The last 4 PHoF tables)

wolfson said:

I think if Farsight stick with the 1 table a month, as it`s in season 3 and give us great quality tables, is fine with me. what about every 6-12 months Farsight do a 4 pack of the older style tables like sorcerer,ace high and similar tables for us older mugs like me !!!!

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That actually not a bad idea. My concern was/is FS will make Season 4 just these older non DMD & EM tables. I understand that these deserve their place in the pinball arcade but with FS new process of just 1 table a month I can't see these type of tables selling poorly and the amount of complaints they would get. Can you image if Central Park was released now as the only table of the month, there would be an upraw.

I think if FS still want to release older tables then there going to have to do them as a pack for that month like season 1 and 2

but nobody can deny that they have a passion for what they do

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i'm not so sure about atleast some of them..

lettuce said:

That actually not a bad idea. My concern was/is FS will make Season 4 just these older non DMD & EM tables. I understand that these deserve their place in the pinball arcade but with FS new process of just 1 table a month I can't see these type of tables selling poorly and the amount of complaints they would get. Can you image if Central Park was released now as the only table of the month, there would be an upraw.

I think if FS still want to release older tables then there going to have to do them as a pack for that month like season 1 and 2

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There probably WAS an uproar. On the iOS side that Apple cracked down on them which is why the Season 3 pass is gone.

I suspect the huge run of Gottlieb near the end of Season 2 pretty much did it, because season 3 started off with a bang. And I guess people (who are not on these forums) look to see that it's just a scam - they offer the first couple of "good" tables, then saddle the rest of the season with crap.

And I suspect it's why Farsight removed it from the other platforms as well - Apple is one of the easier companies to deal with billing wise, but doing it for Google Play or Valve or even worse, Microsoft and Sony. And Valve/Microsoft/Sony will be the new ones joining the ranks for season 3. Give some bad or unwanted tables and the same thing that happened to iOS users might just happen to Steam/Xbone/PS4/PS3 users as well - they'll call and complain about being ripped off.

Season 2 is done with, Season 3 is just starting. Release a bad table and it's game over with season passes. But release tables one by one and then offer it post-season, people can't complain about being saddled with crap when they know what's in the entire pack.

Worf said:

There probably WAS an uproar. On the iOS side that Apple cracked down on them which is why the Season 3 pass is gone.

I suspect the huge run of Gottlieb near the end of Season 2 pretty much did it, because season 3 started off with a bang. And I guess people (who are not on these forums) look to see that it's just a scam - they offer the first couple of "good" tables, then saddle the rest of the season with crap.

And I suspect it's why Farsight removed it from the other platforms as well - Apple is one of the easier companies to deal with billing wise, but doing it for Google Play or Valve or even worse, Microsoft and Sony. And Valve/Microsoft/Sony will be the new ones joining the ranks for season 3. Give some bad or unwanted tables and the same thing that happened to iOS users might just happen to Steam/Xbone/PS4/PS3 users as well - they'll call and complain about being ripped off.

Season 2 is done with, Season 3 is just starting. Release a bad table and it's game over with season passes. But release tables one by one and then offer it post-season, people can't complain about being saddled with crap when they know what's in the entire pack.

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That actually makes good sense. And Farsight doesn't have to release their tables in a season-only format. You could have a "mid season" or a special release of,say a couple of EM's...

I guess they could work on say 3 EM type tables for each season on the side lines and then release a special EM pack at the end or mid season for people who want to see older tables. For me though the sweet spot seem to be late 80's to mid 90's tables

If they are willing to drop the price via the season pack to $3/table, why not do a 4 pack of EMs for 10 bucks? Probably get more people buying based on the extra value and satisfy a niche of fans that has not really received any of the higher rated or popular tables from their era to this point.

Here's the thing, the cost would be prohibitive. Not only do they have to find, buy, restore, and get the rights to the tables, but since they can't emulate the rule sets, they will have to script them... Manually. This will take time. I can't see them doing this as it would probably cost them more than they'd make. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the EMs, and would definitely buy them, but I know a lot of people who can't stand EMs. At the end of the day Farsight has to be profitable, I don't see the same profit margins in EMs as SSs.

wolfson said:

I think if Farsight stick with the 1 table a month, as it`s in season 3 and give us great quality tables, is fine with me. what about every 6-12 months Farsight do a 4 pack of the older style tables like sorcerer,ace high and similar tables for us older mugs like me !!!!

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great idea.