Leaderboards NEED to be wiped on PS4 & other platforms possibly...

So awhile back, a few months or so? Tom admitted to the physics being adjusted and tweaked to make tables "harder" and a little more challenging... The ones I noticed it the most on and it's mostly because they are the two that I've played the most and learned patterns I guess you could say on them, are Twilight Zone and Terminator 2...

The ball is a little more bouncy and unpredictable (which really isn't simulation, there should be some predictability) for example on the T2 table you can get a motorcycle combo loops pattern on the right orbit lane... Before the update you could hit the ball up the right orbit and hold the left flipper up so it bounces off it when it comes back around... NOW the trick after it bounced back up off the left flipper is you should know whether to let the flipper down so when the ball comes back down it would drop to the right flipper and bounce off back to the left flipper and could catch it again easily OR you could keep the left flipper up and it would come back down to it and could be caught easily...

The trick though that would let you know whether to keep holding the left flipper up or to let it down so it would bounce off the right flipper is after it bounces off the left flipper the first time it comes around it goes up higher than the bumper above the flipper and when it starts coming down again it will either just hit that left bumper that is above the left flipper and if it does that then you know to let the flipper down so it will bounce off the right flipper back to the left flipper and if it didn't hit that bumper and just came straight back down then you held it up still...

Then on Twilight Zone there was a similar thing like that to where when the ball shoots out of that box when you do a full power plunge and it would always bounce off the right flipper into the left and after it bounced off you could then hold the left flipper up so you can catch it... You can still kind of do that, but it's not as predictable as before... The loop/pattern on this table was being able to catch the ball on the left flipper and then you would shoot it up the left ramp and then when it comes back down you then hit it up the right ramp so it drops it right above the top left flipper and then you hit it into the piano to claim a box or start a mode I guess you can say... Then after the piano it would shoot out that other box, the slot machine looking box and it would bounce off the right flipper to the left and then just repeat....

I'm sure there's others, but I haven't been able to really play that long because like I and others have mentioned we spend more time adjusting the lighting settings and then just get frustrated and quit....

But those are the two tables I usually go and test after patches because I remember how much better they looked and I'm always testing those to see if the lighting, etc had been fixed yet or adjusted...

What's UNFAIR about the leaderboards and why they need to be wiped is because a lot or I should say most of the people that are high up on the leaderboards got those scores a long time ago before the physics were adjusted and I can guarantee that most of them got them doing these easy loops and patterns...

I know we don't win anything and it's just for bragging rights, but it's something to go for and it's just not really fair that we have to play on a harder, more unpredictable table then before...

It's the fair thing to do OR change the physics back to how they were before, because they were fine and as I mentioned, there is predictability on real tables because of you can do just about the same on a real table and actually if I recall, going for motorcycle loops on the T2 machine ws just as easy as it was before the changes and is a real strategy that is used in tournaments....

This is one of those things I didn't really understand either, the physics were fine for the most part and there are way more important things that needed and still need to be fixed/patched and or adjusted before even thinking about adjusting the physics and it didn't really improve anything.... That's exactly what happened to the lighting before it got adjusted and changed over a year ago, maybe two years ago now? But it was fine and the game looked better and didn't need to be adjusted and once it got adjusted it just made it worse and it's never been the same... It's gotten a little better than before but its still needs improvement...

Leave well enough alone and just tend to the things that do need fixing, adjusting, and patched...

The ball on those tables now fell way too light and too bouncy... There's times I've seen it go extremely fast after it bounces off something that shouldn't affect the ball like that, especially when its coming down and bounces back up, it shouldn't gain that much speed because the table is supposed to be at a pitch and if its coming down and bounces off a flipper for example, then it shouldn't gain speed after it bounces off because it's going up the incline, if anything it should slow it down....

But the are times it looks like one of those little rubber bouncy balls that you can get out of a gumball machine...

Ugh, it's just so frustrating all the issues that wasn't around before and now it's just a mess and on top of the look/lighting always looking off and not as good as it used to be, now the physics are wonky and just doesn't feel right....

That's why I stress it would ultimately be best to just build a whole new version from the ground up utilizing the PS4 hardware and software to its fullest potential... Heck I bet you developers would even be surprised how much better it would look and maybe even be easier to implement updates and patches without something always breaking....

But anyways, please either wipe the leaderboards so everyone has to get high scores on these newly adjusted tables or put the physics back to how they were before...

Dude, you need to focus on getting to the point because your posts (yes I've read a few) are all over the map!

So leaderboards...they're not going to wipe them. I've been making this request since season one. I was just up at FarSight 2 weeks ago and again argued for this, argued that leaderboards should be reset annually, but certain decision makers don't agree. Who knows, maybe there is more to resetting than just flipping a switch.

As for building a new version of the game from the ground up? You keep smoking that pipe there buddy. Zen has done it 3 times, this last time it took a year for them to build, and they lost some titles in the process as FX3 is viewed as a new game to FX2. With the license loss, you'd never see any of the Williams/Bally tables in this new build you are asking for. I personally would love to see a new build for this new era in TPA, use more robust engines that are currently available, but it's simply not going to happen because of business reasons.

xZOMBIEx certainly seems to be passionate about TPA doesn't he? I can respect that, but yeah, he's quite verbose. Personally, I just play for fun, not high scores, so the leaderboards don't really matter to me as I'll probably never top them anyway.

I'm not a huge leaderboard watcher, but I always liked the idea of wiping the boards every Jan 1.

Kolchak357 said:

I'm not a huge leaderboard watcher, but I always liked the idea of wiping the boards every Jan 1.

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They should still be archived, though, just like you can see old tournament results. And of course renamed to "Yearly Leaderboards". With today's prices for storage, that should be no objection. It still infuriates me when I want to see an older news article from a big $ site and I get "Oops. That page is no longer available." type messages. WaybackMachine has some, but not all.

I don't see any reason to wipe the leaderboards. The people who spent marathon sessions scoring billions shouldn't have to do it again... most of us aren't going to top the leaderboards anyway, so why penalize others? For me, leaderboards are about competing against my friends' scores. Even if they haven't played a table in 5 years, their scores should still be there for me to chase.

tomwaits said:

I don't see any reason to wipe the leaderboards. The people who spent marathon sessions scoring billions shouldn't have to do it again... most of us aren't going to top the leaderboards anyway, so why penalize others? For me, leaderboards are about competing against my friends' scores. Even if they haven't played a table in 5 years, their scores should still be there for me to chase.

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The reason for wiping them is that there are scores posted under conditions that no longer are available to current players. Technically, any time a table has been newly tuned that entire board should be cleared. People that spent marathon sessions posting absurd scores, those actually discourage people from caring about leaderboards precisely because they are so out of reach. Pinball thrives on competition. Those posting max scores stop playing entirely, because why bother, and everybody else gives up trying. The Pinball Tournaments app resets every 2 days, and every time it does I get a renewed sense of striving for the top spot.

Instead of worrying about some legacy score from someone that is no longer actively playing, how about we care about active players and encouraging active competition among everyone? You want to archive scores by year, go for it as that would also encourage competition (I've been #1 on this table for 2 years running!). I used to follow the boards, used to care about climbing on certain ones. Eventually it just felt like a futile exercise so I stopped. And then I slowly stopped playing tables. And then I found competition in Zen with their user tournaments and that's where my attention goes. Stagnation is the death of a game, and I don't want TPA to wallow in it.

Anyway, that's been and always will be my argument. Certain minds at FarSight seem to think there will be backlash over a board reset by those top leaders on the board. I say come defend your title, show you can do it again. Quit being a Billy Mitchell.

Well there are weekly and monthly leaderboards so that's something. Just look at those and pretend it's the All Time one.

gameaddict4life said:

Well there are weekly and monthly leaderboards so that's something. Just look at those and pretend it's the All Time one.

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Hahhahaha NO.

Speaking of leaderboards, I've been confused as far as adding friends. Do friends and the leaderboards work across Android and IOS?

Concerning the leaderboards, I would prefer to see them at least archived because it seems like when playing on my other tablets the score will be on the leader board so I can see what I've done, even if my local high scores were reset. Instead of resetting each year, what's wrong with a "This Year" or "Last 365" in addition to this week and month.

Sometimes it's more fun to compare best monthly scores for people that are actively playing recently...some of those high all time scores are ancient with no sign of that person since.

So I guess I would not wipe the all time scores, they are what they are (they don't reset baseball records when the mound height or ball changes) but have the This Year category which obviously resets and archive those.

Kind of a moot point for me as I'm nowhere near the top, though I briefly had a top 10 score in Central Park of all games...at least for a few hours.

I still think 'all-time' leaderboards should be from launch day until the servers are dead.

But, if you wanted to lobby Farsight for more active competition, how about asking them to continue including Williams/Bally tables in future tournaments? Most people who are still playing PA tournaments own all the popular tables... or just bought them before the delisting.

shutyertrap said:

The reason for wiping them is that there are scores posted under conditions that no longer are available to current players. Technically, any time a table has been newly tuned that entire board should be cleared. People that spent marathon sessions posting absurd scores, those actually discourage people from caring about leaderboards precisely because they are so out of reach. Pinball thrives on competition. Those posting max scores stop playing entirely, because why bother, and everybody else gives up trying. The Pinball Tournaments app resets every 2 days, and every time it does I get a renewed sense of striving for the top spot.

Instead of worrying about some legacy score from someone that is no longer actively playing, how about we care about active players and encouraging active competition among everyone? You want to archive scores by year, go for it as that would also encourage competition (I've been #1 on this table for 2 years running!). I used to follow the boards, used to care about climbing on certain ones. Eventually it just felt like a futile exercise so I stopped. And then I slowly stopped playing tables. And then I found competition in Zen with their user tournaments and that's where my attention goes. Stagnation is the death of a game, and I don't want TPA to wallow in it.

Anyway, that's been and always will be my argument. Certain minds at FarSight seem to think there will be backlash over a board reset by those top leaders on the board. I say come defend your title, show you can do it again. Quit being a Billy Mitchell.

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Sounds like instead of wiping them we should retire them and freeze the old scores top 100 in some menu then start a new. Should just have annual leaderboards that are frozen forever and can be looked back at through a menu.

shutyertrap said:

any time a table has been newly tuned that entire board should be cleared.

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This.

Certain minds at FarSight seem to think there will be backlash over a board reset by those top leaders on the board.

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FarSight logic is always great. Heavens, they might piss off the 12 guys who marathon high scores and already own all the content. What a devastating boycott!

FarSight_Matt said:

Sounds like instead of wiping them we should retire them and freeze the old scores top 100 in some menu then start a new. Should just have annual leaderboards that are frozen forever and can be looked back at through a menu.

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I'm not opposed to this. Put them in a separate menu and make the current year part of the 'my score/friends score/weekly score rotation. This would also give an idea of how many are playing a table currently.

I do agree that the leaderboards definitely need to be reviewed.

First, I think the leaderboards should be split by platform. One for PC, one for Mobile, one for PS4, etc. Or at the very least, give us an option to filter by platform.

Second, a lot of the top scores need to be looked at with a critical eye. The all-time boards are almost entirely dominated by PC players, and it's very common for those scores to be well above everyone else. And while I certainly understand that some people are very skilled at pinball, there are quite a few top scores that are on PC and so far ahead of even the rest of the top 5 that it smells....fishy at best. Most of them are dominated by one player, and a good chunk of his scores are absurdly ahead of even second place.

I did a quick rundown of 40 leaderboards, basically going alphabetically starting at AC/DC and going to Ghostbusters. Of those 40 tables:

• 67% of top 5 positions are taken by PC players. Another 16% are taken by mobile players.
• PC (and in some cases, mobile) players are able to outscore other players by at least double on 17 tables. In 12 of those 17 cases, top PC players were able to average 4-5X the score of top non-PC players. In 3 cases, the scores were so ridiculously ahead of non-PC players, I cannot believe they were achieved without using some kind of cheat/hack/exploit.
• In 8 of the top 40 tables, console players were unable to even make the top 10. In another 6 cases, only one player was able to make the top 10. In most of these cases, these are the same tables where PC and/or mobile players are able to outscore console players by at least 2X or more.
• The same player (I won't mention who he is, but you can look him up yourself) is in the top 5 in 37 of the 40 tables. He is in first place on 21 of those 37 tables. Of the 3 tables he is not in the top 5 on, he seems to have not played them at all.

I'd be willing to bet that anyone who wanted to take the time to cover the rest of the tables would find similar results.

It's pretty obvious that PC players have an advantage. Whether that's because the PC tables play differently in a way that is beneficial to PC players, or if they're using some kind of cheat/hack/exploit, I have no idea. But comparing PC players to console players by having them on the same leaderboard is simply not a fair comparison. Each section should have their own leaderboard.

Any time a PC player posts a top score that is orders of magnitude above other scores, it should be looked at with a critical eye. Central Park has a PC player's score above a million, where other top scorers have scores in the 25k range, for example. There are several others. Scores that do not appear to be legitimate should be removed.

Any time the physics of a table changes to make it more difficult, the leaderboards for the affected platform(s) should be reset. It's very possible that old scores under the old rules are now unachievable due to the new physics.

I'm never a fan of destroying information (even if there is some questionable data), so either archive and reset it or much better to just add in the Current Year leader board that gets archived and reset that each year, which was suggested earlier. No separate leaderboards, but add the option to filter by platform as suggested.

So Current Year board and filter by platform. It seems like that addresses most of the concerns.

The-Man-In-Black said:

I do agree that the leaderboards definitely need to be reviewed.

First, I think the leaderboards should be split by platform. One for PC, one for Mobile, one for PS4, etc. Or at the very least, give us an option to filter by platform.

Second, a lot of the top scores need to be looked at with a critical eye. The all-time boards are almost entirely dominated by PC players, and it's very common for those scores to be well above everyone else. And while I certainly understand that some people are very skilled at pinball, there are quite a few top scores that are on PC and so far ahead of even the rest of the top 5 that it smells....fishy at best. Most of them are dominated by one player, and a good chunk of his scores are absurdly ahead of even second place.

I did a quick rundown of 40 leaderboards, basically going alphabetically starting at AC/DC and going to Ghostbusters. Of those 40 tables:

• 67% of top 5 positions are taken by PC players. Another 16% are taken by mobile players.
• PC (and in some cases, mobile) players are able to outscore other players by at least double on 17 tables. In 12 of those 17 cases, top PC players were able to average 4-5X the score of top non-PC players. In 3 cases, the scores were so ridiculously ahead of non-PC players, I cannot believe they were achieved without using some kind of cheat/hack/exploit.
• In 8 of the top 40 tables, console players were unable to even make the top 10. In another 6 cases, only one player was able to make the top 10. In most of these cases, these are the same tables where PC and/or mobile players are able to outscore console players by at least 2X or more.
• The same player (I won't mention who he is, but you can look him up yourself) is in the top 5 in 37 of the 40 tables. He is in first place on 21 of those 37 tables. Of the 3 tables he is not in the top 5 on, he seems to have not played them at all.

I'd be willing to bet that anyone who wanted to take the time to cover the rest of the tables would find similar results.

It's pretty obvious that PC players have an advantage. Whether that's because the PC tables play differently in a way that is beneficial to PC players, or if they're using some kind of cheat/hack/exploit, I have no idea. But comparing PC players to console players by having them on the same leaderboard is simply not a fair comparison. Each section should have their own leaderboard.

Any time a PC player posts a top score that is orders of magnitude above other scores, it should be looked at with a critical eye. Central Park has a PC player's score above a million, where other top scorers have scores in the 25k range, for example. There are several others. Scores that do not appear to be legitimate should be removed.

Any time the physics of a table changes to make it more difficult, the leaderboards for the affected platform(s) should be reset. It's very possible that old scores under the old rules are now unachievable due to the new physics.

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I'll tell you right now, Tarek's scores are legit. He's gone into detail before about exactly how long it took him and how he exploited certain aspects of the table. He's also a perfect example though of getting scores on old tunes of tables before certain exploits were eliminated. That's why with each update to a table, new boards are needed. Viking Erik and Sir Moovenstein also are legit with their scores. All 3 however pretty much stop playing after reaching said limit and they've mentioned it's no fun anymore. Well if you have to repeat and have new scores nipping at your heals every year, maybe that will spice things up.

As for that dude that scored over a billion on Central Park, and curiously also holds the title on the other EM's, yeah that's suspicious as hell.

I agree that there should be sorting by platform, but that you can also see them combined as one. A possible reason PC scores better is that some of those top players don't use a controller, they use their keyboard. They claim they can be more precise with it.

shutyertrap said:

I'll tell you right now, Tarek's scores are legit. He's gone into detail before about exactly how long it took him and how he exploited certain aspects of the table. He's also a perfect example though of getting scores on old tunes of tables before certain exploits were eliminated. That's why with each update to a table, new boards are needed. Viking Erik and Sir Moovenstein also are legit with their scores. All 3 however pretty much stop playing after reaching said limit and they've mentioned it's no fun anymore. Well if you have to repeat and have new scores nipping at your heals every year, maybe that will spice things up.

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Emphasis mine. Depending on how you define "exploited certain aspects of the table", this puts their scores, to me at least, in a grey area at best. Did they exploit aspects that actually existed on the original versions of the table? Were these exploits something a legitimate player could conceivably come across? Did these exploits only exist on PC? The definition of "exploited certain aspects of the table" means a world of difference between legitimately earned scores, exploiting a game glitch, and outright cheating. And at the risk of sounding like I'm throwing accusations around, I find it difficult to believe that such legitimate exploits exist in virtually every table in the game, only in the PC version, and are only known to less than half a dozen players who dominate the top of almost every leaderboard. It's very apt that someone mentioned Billy Mitchell earlier in the thread; many top video game pros who have consistently been at the top for long periods of time have been recently exposed as cheaters, even though many thought for years or even decades that their scores were legitimate.

That being said, if there really are that many exploits in the PC version that don't exist on consoles and/or have since been removed, it just adds to the argument that the leaderboards need to be either reset (because the top scores are now very likely unobtainable), or at the very least separated by platform (because exploits exist on one format but not another, allowing for higher scores).

As for that dude that scored over a billion on Central Park, and curiously also holds the title on the other EM's, yeah that's suspicious as hell.

I agree that there should be sorting by platform, but that you can also see them combined as one. A possible reason PC scores better is that some of those top players don't use a controller, they use their keyboard. They claim they can be more precise with it.

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That argument works in shooters, where even a mediocre KB/M player will absolutely dominate top professional console players. It's not even a contest.

But pinball is basically two buttons. It really doesn't matter which two buttons it is. I've played pinball on both console and PC, and my scores are consistently pretty similar. But of course, that's just me. YMMV.

You're new to the forum (welcome) so it's understandable that you are not familiar with discussions that were exactly like this 4 years ago. So let me break it down.

When I say exploit, I don't mean in a cheaters sense. Also, this was before Steam version even existed and was happening on the PS3, so no it's not a PC only thing. Many tables used to have what we refer to as 'railroad' and 'vacuum ramps'. What that means is if the ball got sent to a certain area, often without enough force, it would magically get sucked all the way through a ramp where on a real table it would have rolled back. Railroads are when the ball will do a predictable behavior virtually every time if you aim for certain areas of a table. For instance, on RBION I used to be able to let the ball eject from the scoop and have it bounce 'wildly' 5 times only for it to always land on my right flipper. I could tell you exactly the pattern before even doing the shot. That table happened to have at least 4 exploitable railroads. They were available to anyone, you just had to recognize the pattern. The individuals I referenced were very good at identifying railroads on each table and how to best use them to their advantage. RBION has since been re-tuned, and those railroads no longer exist.

The other thing these guys were good at was only shooting safe shots, meaning shots that allowed you to consistently be in control of the ball. Again using RBION as the example, they would avoid any shot that would send the ball into the pop bumpers on the left. It's an exceedingly boring way to play a table, requires an insane amount of patience, and you absolutely can't get caught up in going for certain big money shots because they are 50/50 whether you'll survive or not. There used to be a strategy thread for RBION and other tables that this stuff was thoroughly discussed on, and even knowing the secrets it still required skill to achieve. Now and then there were Twitch streams of them playing, which is how I know how tiresome it was to play like that.

There were other tables, like Black Hole early on that because it wasn't emulated, FarSight got the scripting wrong and so there were scoring exploits to be had. That particular one was a case where mobile was just crushing everyone else by a stupid margin. What it really comes down to though is knowing the rules of the table, knowing how best to score. Where stacking certain modes together is more beneficial than others, where knowing how to light the extra ball ensures you'll never run out of balls.

As for the keyboard, as Pinballwiz45b about it. He swears by it and a lot has to do with getting a precise nudge in exactly the direction you want every time rather than hoping your thumb bumped the analogue stick properly. There's also no delay with a wired keyboard as opposed to a wireless controller. A lot of console players have to deal with their TVs having a slight lag too, as opposed to PC monitors usually having none.

The main reason I am vouching for these certain individuals I mentioned though is because they proved themselves years ago. They posted tutorials, videos, gave pointers, interacted with the forum. They helped FarSight identify people that truly were hacking the game and posting bogus scores, by recognizing certain combinations in scores that simply were impossible. They also discovered bugs that were inherent to the ROMs themselves by scoring so high, beyond what anyone could do on a real table, that the game would essentially break. Imagine playing one game for over 7 hours only to have it crash on you because of a certain combination of hits. They discovered how to avoid the roll over bug in Creature that otherwise would wipe your score (had that happen myself). These guys were just exceptional at identifying a variety of factors that created certain conditions, not by cheating but by being hyper observant.

The reason they hold the top spots is because they'd devote hours upon hours on a table as soon as it was released, post an absurd score, and pretty much crush everyone else's aspirations of even trying. Imagine thinking you are good at shooting 3's only to have Steph Curry hop onto the court before you and just drill 20 in a row without missing. You'd question if you should take up some other sport.

Totally agree with syt, but personally id never play that way myself their are a few tables im gonna she venit to the California nsole and pc dudes being primarily a mobile player (portrait relitifely cheap ith a “norms” nudgng skill) i couldnt stand a marathon game on a loop shot thats just not pinball to me. What i tend to do is a ngore the humongus scores and go for a nice average......i dunno if the lb will ever be addressed theyve always been pretty broke ken and generic