Zen Pinball FX3 Williams Pinball Volume One

I played quite a bit of FX3 FT last night, and while I agree it's a great simulation and looks good - it definitely looks better than TPA does - the differences between the two are subtractions in one place, and additions in others.

First there are my interface gripes with FX3 - having to go through all the leveling up, and various scoring screens, at the end of every game, unfortunately gets old for me very quickly. I want one game to end and get right into a new game, especially if the one that just finished was a poor game I'd rather forget about.

Second, forcing the game to essentially ROM reset every time you start a new game. This is bad, bad, bad, and I hope Zen can get this straightened out. For FT this isn't a huge issue - it just affects random stuff, particularly Fish Finder - but there are other tables where things carry over from one game to another where resetting the ROM will make a lot of difference.

Third, I'm not convinced the sound in Zen is as good as TPA. There is a reason Farsight recorded the sounds directly rather than emulating them, and while that method certainly had some flaws, I think the sound quality was pretty decent overall. I don't know how Zen are doing it, but it comes across as slightly inferior.

Flippers need work. Some shots are easier - the orbits in particular - while some shots that intuitively you should be able to make, are impossible. Specifically back-handing the lock and extra ball target. Zen's flipper physics have always broken down when it comes to backhand shots, so this clearly needs working on. It's almost the opposite of TPA, in some regards.

Catching balls is far too easy. This combined with the ease of making orbits, and the ease of making the lock shot from the left flipper (vs TPA where a hard shot to the lock was not 100%, making the backhand a better proposition), makes multiball far too easy - it should be a total ball-breaker and really hard to score jackpots let alone super jackpots.

Nudging I had no issues with, using a controller and analog nudging.

I also think there are some timing/collision detection issues going on with video mode, particularly when shooting the jetskis.

Some great feedback on here so far, haven't got much to say which hasn't been said already - brilliant job by all involved so far, considering it's only a Beta version.

Will definitely be a day 1 purchase for me (on console as PC not powerful enough, also anyone know if the Xbox One or PS4 versions are any different, any preference on performance?)

Ball roll sound is a little high on Fish Tales, hope that can be dialled back a bit in the final release - love the mechanical flipper sounds!

Hope they scan the playfield images at 4k, and there'll be proper Xbox One X / PS4 Pro support for them.

I'm not a massive fan of fictional tables and don't own any other Zen tables yet - so a little shame it's a table pack within the main game for me, rather then a standalone title - although understand why from a business point of view.

Tried the beta a few days ago, have an aging intel chipset, so it was literally unplayable.

After the update I can update that to semi-playable (could tolerate until the timers ran out).

Even with a 15fps framerate, the machines feel really good. I can't really comment on pinball minutae as I was using a wireless keyboard, adding latency to a TV that already adds latency so it was not easy to play but my setup was also very far from ideal. By comarison, sorcerer's lair was a bit smoother, but still definitely not running at 60fps for me.

I'm impressed at the level of performace improvement though. I'm not sure if I will be able to grab this on PC for some time, but will be looking at it on my XBOX One for sure, especially if I upgrade to the X.

I am disappointed that there are no options to turn family mode off. This was something we pressed Farsight for pretty hard and they certainly delivered in that respect, eventually.

mystman12 said:

Are there railroads? I was under the impression that this physics engine didn't have anything like that.

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That's just my assumption from reading various posts here and on other forums, and I could very well be wrong (likely, even). The change in the way the ball came off the flippers into the central loop, like I just couldn't miss, even if I wanted to, made it seem like a railroad.
I should have been more clear in my post that the remark was just my view and not necessarily a fact. Please pardon my poor writing skills.

EldarOfSuburbia said:

...

Flippers need work. Some shots are easier - the orbits in particular - while some shots that intuitively you should be able to make, are impossible. Specifically back-handing the lock and extra ball target. Zen's flipper physics have always broken down when it comes to backhand shots, so this clearly needs working on. It's almost the opposite of TPA, in some regards.

Catching balls is far too easy. This combined with the ease of making orbits, and the ease of making the lock shot from the left flipper (vs TPA where a hard shot to the lock was not 100%, making the backhand a better proposition), makes multiball far too easy - it should be a total ball-breaker and really hard to score jackpots let alone super jackpots.

...
I also think there are some timing/collision detection issues going on with video mode, particularly when shooting the jetskis.

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Well said.

Maddening, amusing, or both that these 4 tables are out looking very good in a reasonable short time frame?

Spending more for the same tables, not sure I'm going to, MM though, must have....

Now bring on BAD CATS!

Hinph said:

Excited to find out what they mean when they say they haven't revealed the full scope of what they're doing... any speculation?

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Well, they sound like they have something big planned for the mobile versions that they haven’t announced yet.

Also, when they say scope, it sounds like they are talking about the size of this project. Nobody knows for sure how long it takes to design a table from scratch vs copying an existing machine exactly as it is. Perhaps without having to come up with any designs, Zen will be able to crank these out faster than we thought. Maybe a four table pack every fall, winter, spring and summer?

Also, In Croooow’s recent video, he let it slip that the game will let you know the locations where you can find these tables IRL, but how they would go about this is a mystery.

I just loaded up the new Beta on my VPCabs Vertigo, and this one provided much better performance on this equipment.

“Fish Tales” now plays nice and smooth with anti-aliasing set to 2. With the previous build game play was choppy even with anti-aliasing set all the way off. (Fullscreen mode).

I also shoved the “gamma” slider to about 75% to the right and found the table lighting much more to my liking.
I have to agree with everybody else here that the nudging has now gone too far in the other direction, but other than that this second Beta now plays pretty sweet on this cab.

PLEASE NOTE that right now only the DMD appears in the 2nd monitor in “cabinet” mode. From playing the other Zen tables in cabinet mode, I know I can copy a static image of the backglass to a specific folder and it will appear there, but since we know the backglass is being rendered (press “V” on the keyboard while the game is playing to see it) I’m hoping cabinet support will be extended to the in game backglass before they come out of Beta.

vfpcoder: rendering a fully working backglass to another screen could be much more taxing on the CPU, so it's possible they stick with the static backglass as a solution.

EldarOfSuburbia: interface gripes: I thought if you run the "single player classic" you get exactly what you are looking for?

Badfinger said:

Maddening, amusing, or both that these 4 tables are out looking very good in a reasonable short time frame?

Spending more for the same tables, not sure I'm going to, MM though, must have....

Now bring on BAD CATS!

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Tables will only be sold in packs according to Mel in that Facebook Live chat. So if you want one, yer gettin’ a few.

shutyertrap said:

Tables will only be sold in packs according to Mel in that Facebook Live chat. So if you want one, yer gettin’ a few.

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As long as it's fair, bring on the Bad Cats! 8)

Did also mention there might be smaller packs/ single tables if that is the condition of any third party licensing (maybe tables such as Indiana Jones - has "Holy Grail" in the interview so looks like they would like to make that as soon as legally possible).

https://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/0...-williams-bally-pinball-fx3-deal-exclusive/#3

SYT maybe you could slip in a question to Mel Kirk asking what his Holy Grail table is when you get him on your podcast in a couple of weeks.

So chaps, did they go backwards with the physics changes done in the patch yesterday? I liked the first beta physics although the flippers were too powerful, but not being able to try yesterday's patch yet I just read comments in the Steam forums and seem to get a feeling it has gone backwards? When you start seeing high scores being posted it gets worrying

Spacies Arcade has a new youtube clip on beta 2 , I have every table of TPA & Zen on the 3 platforms , I love them all . from what I`ve played this Williams Bally with Zen is the start of a new era . I`ve heard all the bagging over the years of TPA & Zen . just look at this new phase of our pinball world as new baby , they have to be given time to grow . so far I`m over the moon !!! as for the packs , Zen has always sold there tables in packs of 3-4 in a pack unless sometimes as a one off table , not often .

I forgot to say , don`t stop giving your feedback to Zen , that`s what will improve our new baby . remember I never complain except for dates of release . I never mind waiting as long as I am told roughly a date !!! to me Farsight did a great job , Zen is taking us to the next step !!!

Yeah, but we also can’t just blow smoke up their butts. Constructive criticism is needed; not just saying “it’s great but it sucks” but saying exactly why you feel one way or the other.

Seeing stupid high scores less than a week into this beta is troubling. The ball needs to stay wonderfully wild and all the compensations done to the flippers has seemingly brought the game dangerously close to how easy TPA is.

TPA is not the baseline for how these tables should play. Direct comparison to the actual table, or era correct tables in general should be. I fear too many cooks in the kitchen and many are going off of pure memory from years ago. The physics needle started at a good distance in the right direction from TPA and now it’s swinging back. Nudge should not be set for single key keyboard users but to analog standards of controllers or cabinet tilt sensors.

Let’s not shoot for lowest common denominator acceptance and instead for actual high standards reality.

shutyertrap said:

Yeah, but we also can’t just blow smoke up their butts. Constructive criticism is needed; not just saying “it’s great but it sucks” but saying exactly why you feel one way or the other.

Seeing stupid high scores less than a week into this beta is troubling. The ball needs to stay wonderfully wild and all the compensations done to the flippers has seemingly brought the game dangerously close to how easy TPA is.

TPA is not the baseline for how these tables should play. Direct comparison to the actual table, or era correct tables in general should be. I fear too many cooks in the kitchen and many are going off of pure memory from years ago. The physics needle started at a good distance in the right direction from TPA and now it’s swinging back. Nudge should not be set for single key keyboard users but to analog standards of controllers or cabinet tilt sensors.

Let’s not shoot for lowest common denominator acceptance and instead for actual high standards reality.

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Amen to this. I'm all for realistic physics, but marathon sessions? NOPE. No more of those, except during those rare moments.

Tarek's already topped off at 10 billion+. I'm worried.

Gorgar said:

Also, In Croooow’s recent video, he let it slip that the game will let you know the locations where you can find these tables IRL, but how they would go about this is a mystery.

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He may have just been referencing the Q&A when they stated that they want to include information in the game about significant real world pinball locations such as museums.

EldarOfSuburbia said:

Flippers need work. Some shots are easier - the orbits in particular - while some shots that intuitively you should be able to make, are impossible. Specifically back-handing the lock and extra ball target. Zen's flipper physics have always broken down when it comes to backhand shots, so this clearly needs working on. It's almost the opposite of TPA, in some regards.

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Flippers definitely need work. I tried backhanding the Monster Fish shot from a trap on the left flipper about 50 times and only made it once (and then it was weird, seemed like a fluke). I can make this backhand all day long in real life. I really hope they correct this and we don't see problems like this going forward on other machines. I have a feeling that a lot of players of these digital versions are not "control" players, so maybe it's not noticeable to most, but I try to play them the same way I play the tables IRL and it drives me nuts when you can't make shots from a trap.

I really hope they can dial in the flipper "tricks" too. That was always my main criticism of Farsight's recreations. I have been able to live catch and tip pass in the Zen version, but I'm really hoping we get drop catches and realistic cradle separations too.

shutyertrap said:

….
Let’s not shoot for lowest common denominator acceptance and instead for actual high standards reality.

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True DAT!