Farsight, we're breaking up - It's not me, it's you...

IGoFirstIndy · May 6, 2015

But you're all forgetting the Farsight business model of only taking care of the customers who don't spend money on upgrading technology and use dying platforms and making them the priority over the customers who spend money and keep up with technology. Cause lord knows the entire mobile industry evolves at a snail's pace... It's not like phone companies are offering upgrades every couple of years or anything.

pm1109 · May 6, 2015

So your using the it's not me but you routine .
Heard that before

Kratos3 · May 6, 2015

IGoFirstIndy said:
But you're all forgetting the Farsight business model of only taking care of the customers who don't spend money on upgrading technology and use dying platforms and making them the priority over the customers who spend money and keep up with technology. Cause lord knows the entire mobile industry evolves at a snail's pace... It's not like phone companies are offering upgrades every couple of years or anything.

For free, mind you. 2013's flagship phone is this years freebie.

Jutter · May 20, 2015

Haven't posted here for the longest, but seeing this thread... man oh-man.
Those with better hardware are entitled to desire better graphics, same as those who can't afford faster hardware are entitled to desiring a game that'll run silkysmooth on older slower tablets/phones. I appreciate Farsight for sticking to the latter, not just because I'm stuck with my current tablet for now, but also because it fits the current status quo of income-gaps. Meanwhile I'm yet to find the settings that'll make the Zaccaria gameplay not-abysmal on my Galaxy-tab 2. For good meassures I'll hang on to a copy of an older TPA APK should a new and improved engine arive, before my financial position changes to a point where I can afford a hardware upgrade.
Requesting bugfixes... always fair. Though the game, flaws and all, never struck me as unforgivably buggy I must admit.

But imagine a guy tells his girlfriend: baby I'm richer now, and I met someone at the gym who's younger and prettier, and untill you get plastic surgery and a boob-job that's who I'll be spending my time with. P.S. it's not me... it's you.
Luckily computerprograms don't have feelings.

Baron Rubik · May 20, 2015

I've recently upgraded my phone, and whilst TPA ran fine on it with KITKAT out of its box, when I updated it to LOLLIPOP the day after getting it, it has stutter now when the camera pans between table and plunger lane, and sometimes during fast ball movement.
Sooo, whilst it's fine to support older devices, if it's likely to affect the big majority who do update their devices, then it's got to be a bad move.
Works on a 4yr old smartphone, but not a current top end model. Hmmm

Snorzel · May 20, 2015

It seems apps need to "optimized" for particular devices. That makes for a daunting task the rate at which new devices are released. Still it seems just as important if not more as keeping support for old devices, when it comes to new sales.

Just curious, did anyone have each upgrade of a device as it came? For example did anyone upgrade from iPhone 4 to 4s, to 5, to 5s, to now 6 as the phones were released?

Just wanted to add, the laptop I play TPA on cannot have its gpu upgraded so I need a new set up for dx11, but I see a major improvement in the looks of the dx9 version. Great work lately farsight please keep it up!

Kratos3 · May 20, 2015

Jutter said:
Haven't posted here for the longest, but seeing this thread... man oh-man.
Those with better hardware are entitled to desire better graphics, same as those who can't afford faster hardware are entitled to desiring a game that'll run silkysmooth on older slower tablets/phones. I appreciate Farsight for sticking to the latter, not just because I'm stuck with my current tablet for now, but also because it fits the current status quo of income-gaps. Meanwhile I'm yet to find the settings that'll make the Zaccaria gameplay not-abysmal on my Galaxy-tab 2. For good meassures I'll hang on to a copy of an older TPA APK should a new and improved engine arive, before my financial position changes to a point where I can afford a hardware upgrade.
Requesting bugfixes... always fair. Though the game, flaws and all, never struck me as unforgivably buggy I must admit.

But imagine a guy tells his girlfriend: baby I'm richer now, and I met someone at the gym who's younger and prettier, and untill you get plastic surgery and a boob-job that's who I'll be spending my time with. P.S. it's not me... it's you.
Luckily computerprograms don't have feelings.

That's a fair point, and I don't think anyone can argue with it. However, if TPA is being held back in graphics and performance for hardware that can handle it, its going to hurt them in the long run. To me, the solution is, if you don't want to/can't upgrade your hardware, don't update the game.

Farsight(for that matter, every gaming company) needs to keep up with the competition if they want to survive. Zen, Pro Pinball, and ASK are putting out great looking products that are making TPA look very dated.

I'm willing to bet the new UI is the next project for TPA, and that will be a big improvement.

IGoFirstIndy · May 20, 2015

Jutter said:
Haven't posted here for the longest, but seeing this thread... man oh-man.
Those with better hardware are entitled to desire better graphics, same as those who can't afford faster hardware are entitled to desiring a game that'll run silkysmooth on older slower tablets/phones. I appreciate Farsight for sticking to the latter, not just because I'm stuck with my current tablet for now, but also because it fits the current status quo of income-gaps. Meanwhile I'm yet to find the settings that'll make the Zaccaria gameplay not-abysmal on my Galaxy-tab 2. For good meassures I'll hang on to a copy of an older TPA APK should a new and improved engine arive, before my financial position changes to a point where I can afford a hardware upgrade.
Requesting bugfixes... always fair. Though the game, flaws and all, never struck me as unforgivably buggy I must admit.

But imagine a guy tells his girlfriend: baby I'm richer now, and I met someone at the gym who's younger and prettier, and untill you get plastic surgery and a boob-job that's who I'll be spending my time with. P.S. it's not me... it's you.
Luckily computerprograms don't have feelings.

so by this logic we would all still be playing playstation 1 games or would we all be playing pong still?

technology evolves. TPA isn't a birthright. It's a mobile pinball game costing five-10 dollars per table. it's a luxury item. you don't need it to use your phone. it's a toy.

and as far as your girlfriend/boyfriend scenario. that happens all the time. it's called life.

eventually you're going to need to buy a new phone. so we have to wait for you before it's okay to upgrade?

Snorzel · May 20, 2015

could they set up android/ iOS to have updates similar to the structure of pc? with "dx9" type version for old devices, and "dx11" type updates for new ones that can handle better lighting?

Jutter · May 21, 2015

IGoFirstIndy said:
so by this logic we would all still be playing playstation 1 games or would we all be playing pong still?

That strawman aside, some people do indeed still play older software on older systems (or through emulation). It's called retrogaming.
What I WAS saying is that a preference for something newer and flashier IS you. Not a great game somehow not being great anymore.
And the boyfriend/girlfriend scenario does not happen ALL the the time, because not everyone's a... well I better stop there.

rehtroboi40 · May 21, 2015

What I fear is that in order to get a more "evolved" look and updates to existing tables, FarSight may have to resort to further micro-transactions to generate enough cash flow to make the work worth their while. (I know, new tables monthly and ball designs do count as micro-transactions).

But I hope FarSight never has to resort to slapping the insulting and amoral video-game postscript "SAGA" after TPA.

By the way, the first time I see an "ad" (I hate product placement too, but it's unavoidable) in a game I've paid for, will be the last time I play it. Heck, I still like Rollergames, but I can't find "Slice" anywhere LOL!

To this day, I will not go to theaters that show commercials like the ones on TV. Luckily, they have two theaters in my area that don't. I can still stomach the local ones in between showtimes.

jaredmorgs · May 21, 2015

Snorzel said:
could they set up android/ iOS to have updates similar to the structure of pc? with "dx9" type version for old devices, and "dx11" type updates for new ones that can handle better lighting?

This would be a logical way forward.

IGoFirstIndy · May 21, 2015

Jutter said:
That strawman aside, some people do indeed still play older software on older systems (or through emulation). It's called retrogaming.
What I WAS saying is that a preference for something newer and flashier IS you. Not a great game somehow not being great anymore.
And the boyfriend/girlfriend scenario does not happen ALL the the time, because not everyone's a... well I better stop there.

i'm glad you like retrogaming. i do too. check out Wayward Souls.

retrogaming as you're trying to use the definition doesn't apply to the flat graphics, lack of lighting effects and pixel issues we have on TPA mobile. none of the other TPA platforms have these issues except for mobile, because we're anchored to a small percentage of people who play the game on older discontinued hardware. one day you will have to get a new phone/tablet, and you will buy new games for that phone/tablet and you will look at TPA and see what i mean. until then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Baron Rubik · May 21, 2015

IGoFirstIndy said:
one day you will have to get a new phone/tablet

I did, only to find TPA doesn't work too well on it, probably because of the backwards compatibility they refuse to let go of.

Jutter · May 21, 2015

The most gracefull solution would obviously be one where one can have their hardware/software update, without it happening at the expense of others. The introduction of the PS4 didn't render the PS3 and its library useless for instance.
One model I can think of is a new and improved Android TPA2 for newer hardware, while leaving the old version also available in-store. Even if this meant the older version can't go further than season 4 it would still be the more gallant compromise. Most people would agree the first two seasons offer the most bang for your buck anyway.
Some might get hissy about needing to buy tables all over again, but that would be even though the nessecity to aquire a new library for your next-gen hardware is commonplace in the industry.

Either way, perhaps the Pinball Arcade 'fans' here, might sometimes be that little too cynical about a company that's probably just trying to do the commercially viable best they can. How Farsight does business can hardly be compared with the other softwarehouse's DLC shenanigans.

Baron Rubik · May 21, 2015

Jutter said:
The most gracefull solution would obviously be one where one can have their hardware/software update, without it happening at the expense of others. The introduction of the PS4 didn't render the PS3 and its library useless for instance.
One model I can think of is a new and improved Android TPA2 for newer hardware, while leaving the old version also available in-store. Even if this meant the older version can't go further than season 4 it would still be the more gallant compromise. Most people would agree the first two seasons offer the most bang for your buck anyway.
Some might get hissy about needing to buy tables all over again, but that would be even though the nessecity to aquire a new library for your next-gen hardware is commonplace in the industry.

The simplest solution has been stated many times by others here and elsewhere...
Old device users stop getting play store updates from now on done through device detection.
Then Farsight adopt what everyone else does and support 90% of the user OS systems, which would be Jellybean upwards.

Who in their right mind focuses on the 5% of the market still trying to use ICS or GB.

The market focuses on current devices.

francis247uk · May 21, 2015

I'd be interested to know if TPA's mobile engine is still being worked on, and if in theory it could potentially have lots of scalable options that could be tweaked by the user to match their devices performance levels.

If the mobile engine cannot be improved in its current form I would imagine it may be time to begin creating a new one and move across to that when ready.

(For all we know they may be doing something like this but keeping it under wraps for the time being, lets hope!)

In their current form, taking a look at TPA/Zaccaria on Android as an example;

At the momment on TPA graphics wise you currently have the following settings:

Detail (Low/High)
Textures (Normal/High)

On Zaccaria you have:

Room Light (Light/Dark)
Metal Fx (On/Off)
Particle Fx (On/Off)
Dynamic Light for flipper and ball (On/Off)
Reflection Fx (Off/Only Ball/All Object/Realistic)
Reflection Intensity (0-100%)
Render Quality (0-100%)
Glow FX (0-100%)
Glow Intensity (0-100%)
Glow Small Lamp FX (On/Off)
Motion Blur (On/Off)
Background (On/Off)
Glass Type (Original/Shine/Scratches/Fingerprinted/Frost/Clean/Off)
Lightmap Refresh Rate (Fastest/Fast/Normal/Slow/Very Slow)
Lamp Flashing (0-100%)
LED Mod (Original Orange/White/RGB LED)
Red/Green/Blue Color (0-100%)
Inside Light (0-100%)
Outside Light (0-100%)
Lightmap Force (0-100%)

Baron Rubik · May 21, 2015

francis247uk said:
I'd be interested to know if TPA's mobile engine is still being worked on, and if in theory it could potentially have lots of scalable options that could be tweaked by the user to match their devices performance levels.

If the mobile engine cannot be improved in its current form I would imagine it may be time to begin creating a new one and move across to that when ready.

(For all we know they may be doing something like this but keeping it under wraps for the time being, lets hope!)

In their current form, taking a look at TPA/Zaccaria on Android as an example;

At the momment on TPA graphics wise you currently have the following settings:

Detail (Low/High)
Textures (Normal/High)

On Zaccaria you have:

Room Light (Light/Dark)
Metal Fx (On/Off)
Particle Fx (On/Off)
Dynamic Light for flipper and ball (On/Off)
Reflection Fx (Off/Only Ball/All Object/Realistic)
Reflection Intensity (0-100%)
Render Quality (0-100%)
Glow FX (0-100%)
Glow Intensity (0-100%)
Glow Small Lamp FX (On/Off)
Motion Blur (On/Off)
Background (On/Off)
Glass Type (Original/Shine/Scratches/Fingerprinted/Frost/Clean/Off)
Lightmap Refresh Rate (Fastest/Fast/Normal/Slow/Very Slow)
Lamp Flashing (0-100%)
LED Mod (Original Orange/White/RGB LED)
Red/Green/Blue Color (0-100%)
Inside Light (0-100%)
Outside Light (0-100%)
Lightmap Force (0-100%)

Picture leak of Farsights new dynamic room lighting slider (in development).

shutyertrap · May 21, 2015

francis247uk said:
I'd be interested to know if TPA's mobile engine is still being worked on, and if in theory it could potentially have lots of scalable options that could be tweaked by the user to match their devices performance levels.

If the mobile engine cannot be improved in its current form I would imagine it may be time to begin creating a new one and move across to that when ready.

(For all we know they may be doing something like this but keeping it under wraps for the time being, lets hope!)

In their current form, taking a look at TPA/Zaccaria on Android as an example;

At the momment on TPA graphics wise you currently have the following settings:

Detail (Low/High)
Textures (Normal/High)

On Zaccaria you have:

Room Light (Light/Dark)
Metal Fx (On/Off)
Particle Fx (On/Off)
Dynamic Light for flipper and ball (On/Off)
Reflection Fx (Off/Only Ball/All Object/Realistic)
Reflection Intensity (0-100%)
Render Quality (0-100%)
Glow FX (0-100%)
Glow Intensity (0-100%)
Glow Small Lamp FX (On/Off)
Motion Blur (On/Off)
Background (On/Off)
Glass Type (Original/Shine/Scratches/Fingerprinted/Frost/Clean/Off)
Lightmap Refresh Rate (Fastest/Fast/Normal/Slow/Very Slow)
Lamp Flashing (0-100%)
LED Mod (Original Orange/White/RGB LED)
Red/Green/Blue Color (0-100%)
Inside Light (0-100%)
Outside Light (0-100%)
Lightmap Force (0-100%)

According to the interview we in the BlahCade did with Zsolt, the engine for Zacc had been waiting for the mobile devices to be able to handle it. That would lead me to believe FarSight would need a major overhaul on their engine to add all those parameters. The DX 11 build only has 3 things that can be adjusted, and that's on PC! So until they come out with a new engine, all they can do is tweak within the limits of the current one.

francis247uk · May 21, 2015

Yeah I heard that interview, great job. Do you know if Farsight has given any indication as to what future plans with TPA are other than releasing a table each month and potentially overhauling UI and adding Cab Support? Anything specifically on the engine side?

Farsight, we're breaking up - It's not me, it's you...

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