Request General Game Polish

[Jan Duin]

Selling content is what pays people to work on the game. If the content "dries up" then no more updates!

That might be true but the fact that FS decided to churn out a table every month rather than fix the base product made me stop buying add-on packs. It is costing them money either way.

 

[canuck]

In all fairness to FS, they are the only company on the planet producing these authentic tables.

 

[The Great Cornholio]

Selling content is what pays people to work on the game. If the content "dries up" then no more updates!

Selling content is what pays people to work on the game. If the content "dries up" then no more updates!

I think this is exactly what will happen. Sooner or later the interest in new tables will diminish. Then FS will stop working on TPA and their customers will be left with a bunch of buggy tables. I can't understand why so many people tolerate the way FS is operating. They are not doing us a favor releasing pinball software. It's their business. Customers buy their product and have the right to receive bugfree software. This whole defending of their mistakes makes me sick. If their business case only works when they ship out unfinished tables at a high rate and have no ressources left to do anything else like bug fixing than something is terribly wrong. I have no problem with minor bugs that only people realize who own the machine in real life. But the sound issue, the ceramic ball in TZ or the visible ball under the playfield in CFTBL are so obvious that it is unacceptable. You get the feeling they don't even check the software before they submit it. Because that is surely not the case it is very likely they don't care about the customers. Once the table is bought the table the goal is completed. I hope I will be proven wrong, but at the moment I doubt it.

 

[brakel]

Well they have two big paydays coming, Xbox 360 and Xbox One.

Well 3 if you count season 2 coming to ps4. So they'll be making a lot of money on essentially old, already built content. That's the main cake, monthly dlc is just icing on the overall cake.

I really hope once all the platforms are caught up that they get to the polish stage.



Agree totally.

I didn't say that the content was going to dry up. I just said that if it dries up then that's the end of updates.

In all fairness to FS, they are the only company on the planet producing these authentic tables.

In all fairness, they have exclusive licenses.

I think this is exactly what will happen. Sooner or later the interest in new tables will diminish. Then FS will stop working on TPA and their customers will be left with a bunch of buggy tables. I can't understand why so many people tolerate the way FS is operating. They are not doing us a favor releasing pinball software. It's their business. Customers buy their product and have the right to receive bugfree software. This whole defending of their mistakes makes me sick. If their business case only works when they ship out unfinished tables at a high rate and have no ressources left to do anything else like bug fixing than something is terribly wrong. I have no problem with minor bugs that only people realize who own the machine in real life. But the sound issue, the ceramic ball in TZ or the visible ball under the playfield in CFTBL are so obvious that it is unacceptable. You get the feeling they don't even check the software before they submit it. Because that is surely not the case it is very likely they don't care about the customers. Once the table is bought the table the goal is completed. I hope I will be proven wrong, but at the moment I doubt it.

I'd rather have buggy tables than no tables at all. It's not like there are a bunch of companies competing for the exclusive rights to make these pinball machines into virtual tables.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I think this is exactly what will happen. Sooner or later the interest in new tables will diminish. Then FS will stop working on TPA and their customers will be left with a bunch of buggy tables.

Oh, sort of like how Bethesda stopped working on Oblivion and left customers with over eighteen hundred bugs, ranging from obscure to savefile-corrupting, that eventually had to be fixed by the community? Yet Oblivion still sells...and sells well!...on Steam, despite the fact that the game still sometimes crashes for no discernible reason, 8 years after its release.

I can't understand why so many people tolerate the way FS is operating. They are not doing us a favor releasing pinball software. It's their business.

FarSight makes a product that many of us want and cannot get elsewhere. Many of us are willing to tolerate a certain amount of imperfection in that product, since the alternative is nothing. That does not make us happy about the bugs - especially me, since I'm the one who maintains the huge master list of them - but given a choice between buggy TPA and no TPA, we'll take buggy TPA.

Customers buy their product and have the right to receive bugfree software.

This is not, was not, and never will be true of any nontrivial commercially-distributed software ever produced by human minds. Read any modern software's EULA. It will state, in a mountain of legalese, that the developers are responsible for pretty much nothing.

This whole defending of their mistakes makes me sick. If their business case only works when they ship out unfinished tables at a high rate and have no ressources left to do anything else like bug fixing than something is terribly wrong.

Acknowledgment/acceptance of bugs does not equal defense. We've just come to terms with the fact that TPA will likely always have some bugs, and decided to stop wasting our time tilting at windmills and instead just enjoy the game for what it is. As for the table release rate, that is probably a major reason why they switched to 1 table/month for Season 3. All five of those tables so far have been vastly superior in terms of quality compared to Season 1 or 2 tables.

I have no problem with minor bugs that only people realize who own the machine in real life. But the sound issue, the ceramic ball in TZ or the visible ball under the playfield in CFTBL are so obvious that it is unacceptable. You get the feeling they don't even check the software before they submit it.

At least for iOS, Android, and PC, there are small armies of beta testers who pick apart the new table each month. Depending on what all they find and how long it takes to fix, the tables go through anywhere from 3 to 10 iterations before the public release. Sometimes the release builds do have errors - either because none of the testers discovered them, or because the error was discovered after the build was submitted for approval (usually only an issue on iOS).

PS3 and PS4 don't have external beta testing (and neither will the XBox platform once they arrive/revive - potential buyers take note when selecting a platform!), and so more "obvious" errors get in. If it bothers you that much, switch to PC.

Because that is surely not the case it is very likely they don't care about the customers. Once the table is bought the table the goal is completed. I hope I will be proven wrong, but at the moment I doubt it.

Surely the reason Mike and Stuart and FlippyFloppy and the other devs visit here so often is because they don't care about us...oh, wait, that can't be right.

 

[superballs]

I have friends who do this for a living so it's not baseless speculating, plus I know a thing or two myself.

Updating a texture is not hard, granted you already have a higher quality/resolution scan on file somewhere. Another example: pixelated "ride again" textures on HD, even from distance.

Rom emulation would be the one that requires the most, but It was promised, HH and BH probably use the same or similar hardware, Gorgar FP and Bk all use the same family of board, maybe a little older than Space Shuttle. I never said adding rom emulation was easy, I said it's easier than rescripting by hand, and I stand by that claim.

I stand by my claim that this along with bug fixes are not some crazy out there thing to ask for, and far easier than coding say a UI overhaul.

A company should be able to afford to fix bugs or be arsed to do quality texturework. It's not asking the moon.

I've got the feeling that I'm going to repeat myself a lot in this reply, but farsight issues bug fixes with every release...maybe not the ones that are frequently asked for. And blurry art isn't a bug, it's blurry art, and doesn't affect gameplay.

Can I see your polling data where you got this consensus idea on how you speak for the majority of all players, please?

YAY!!! Another poll!

Bug fixes are a part of every modern game, from indie stuff, to AAA, and everything in between.

If a studio can't fix bugs within their software, be it "too hard" or "not enough time" etc, then, not to sound harsh but, that just makes the studio look incompetent.

I am new here, but you guys should really hold thier feet to the fire here, not be making excuses. I'm all for Farsight being successful and paying thier bills, but when you have a broken product out there being sold right now, the priority should be fixing that, before taking on even more work like the Xbox One port.

Hopefully once the Xbox One port and 360 is out as well they really get to task on this stuff. And Id like to hear what other members of the forum think about this, there isn't a consolidated thread on the subject, but there is a lot of people talking about it here and there. This way Farsight can see this thread and say, ok, it's important and we should do something about it.

With the exception of the sound issue on PS4, most of the bugs are relatively minor, there are a few gamebreakers yes, but a lot of those generally happen on extremely long games. They usually test the rule sets using test tools (like a "ball cannon" and the ability to move the ball around to trigger switches). This makes it hard for them to find camera bugs in in house testing. I have some pretty long games without encountering bugs and camera issues as well. It's pretty easy to have them slip past internal testing when they aren't 100% reproducible.

People talk about it all over the forum and elsewhere. There's a lot of frustrated players particularly on the ps4.

So I guess since this thread is critical of Farsight, even through I mean it to be constructive criticism , I'm going to be ganged up on now?

If people sighing about this being brought up over and over and over again is "ganging up on you" then I guess so.

I think this is exactly what will happen. Sooner or later the interest in new tables will diminish. Then FS will stop working on TPA and their customers will be left with a bunch of buggy tables. I can't understand why so many people tolerate the way FS is operating. They are not doing us a favor releasing pinball software. It's their business. Customers buy their product and have the right to receive bugfree software. This whole defending of their mistakes makes me sick. If their business case only works when they ship out unfinished tables at a high rate and have no ressources left to do anything else like bug fixing than something is terribly wrong. I have no problem with minor bugs that only people realize who own the machine in real life. But the sound issue, the ceramic ball in TZ or the visible ball under the playfield in CFTBL are so obvious that it is unacceptable. You get the feeling they don't even check the software before they submit it. Because that is surely not the case it is very likely they don't care about the customers. Once the table is bought the table the goal is completed. I hope I will be proven wrong, but at the moment I doubt it.

There's such a thing as bug free software? Or do you mean software that you haven't experienced bugs.

I bet if you name any software you think is bug free, i can find a forum of users complaining about bugs. People seem rather forgiving with EA and Bethesda regarding software bugs.

 

[The Great Cornholio]

There's such a thing as bug free software? Or do you mean software that you haven't experienced bugs.

I bet if you name any software you think is bug free, i can find a forum of users complaining about bugs. People seem rather forgiving with EA and Bethesda regarding software bugs.

I don't complain minor bugs that you only run into on rare occasions. I'm talking about the first thing you notice, when you start the game. On a new system that is selling like crazy and should offer the best possible presentation of their product. And they are not willing or able to fix at least that issue within 4 months? I don't think that FS did themselves a favor with their PS4 activities so far. On the long run they will not be able to run their business only with the support of their loyal fanboys.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I personally feel that you make a valid point, to a degree. I've felt from the very beginning that the lack of polish has hurt their sales. In some ways, they've improved on this over time, but not as much as they really should have focused on it (this is nothing against the developers, as it's really the management who makes those calls). Cranking out new DLC is good, but if you lose customers along the way who are turned away by the bugs, shoddy art/UI, and lack of features, then you've kind've shot yourself in the foot. There really should be more of a balance between adding new DLC and polishing and improving the overall product.

 

[brakel]

I personally feel that you make a valid point, to a degree. I've felt from the very beginning that the lack of polish has hurt their sales. In some ways, they've improved on this over time, but not as much as they really should have focused on it (this is nothing against the developers, as it's really the management who makes those calls). Cranking out new DLC is good, but if you lose customers along the way who are turned away by the bugs, shoddy art/UI, and lack of features, then you've kind've shot yourself in the foot. There really should be more of a balance between adding new DLC and polishing and improving the overall product.

I agree with you but I think FarSight is limited to what they can do by their sales. We don't know what their exact finances are but I get the feeling from talking to the guys at the game shows and those that post on here that they're doing all that they can within their budget. If they budget more people to fix things then they either have to hire more people or release fewer tables. Either one hits the bottom line. What we don't know is how much the owner or owners of FarSight are taking out of the bottom line. Everyone that works there is just making a living and we wouldn't begrudge anyone of that. Based on sales numbers that people have thrown around, I just don't think that the owner of FarSight is raking it in and taking baths in bubbly made from grapes.

So, where does the money come from to make all the fixes? That's the real question. I don't know the answer.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I agree with you but I think FarSight is limited to what they can do by their sales. We don't know what their exact finances are but I get the feeling from talking to the guys at the game shows and those that post on here that they're doing all that they can within their budget. If they budget more people to fix things then they either have to hire more people or release fewer tables. Either one hits the bottom line. What we don't know is how much the owner or owners of FarSight are taking out of the bottom line. Everyone that works there is just making a living and we wouldn't begrudge anyone of that. Based on sales numbers that people have thrown around, I just don't think that the owner of FarSight is raking it in and taking baths in bubbly made from grapes.

So, where does the money come from to make all the fixes? That's the real question. I don't know the answer.

I hear you. It's just sort of a catch 22 when less people buy the DLC because of the lack of polish, features, etc. For example, I stopped buying the PS3 stuff before season 1 was even over, and I know I'm not the only one. I just have to wonder what might've been had management put more of a focus on polishing up the product early on.

 

[jbejarano]

I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping vigilant in discussing ways that The Pinball Arcade can be improved. If FarSight continues to understand which bugs, or art issues, or other irregularities grate their userbase, then as schedule and budget allow, they will address those issues. They've demonstrated a willingness and ability to do this in the past, and I see no reason to believe they won't in the future. In fact, their decision to drop down to a single table a month strikes me as a sage move to improve quality. The quality of the Season 3 tables in general bears this out.

I do sigh a bit at the indignant entitlement of some users about what they feel FarSight "owes" them, and charges by some users that FarSight is "incompentent" or "just doesn't care about users/quality" or what have you. I think couching complaints in those terms is too ad hominem and actually detracts from a user's credibility. If you hate me so much, why should I bother trying to make you happy.

It's fine to be passionate and even relentless about these issues. Indeed, that passion and relentlessness is indicative of how much the userbase cares about The Pinball Arcade. As much of a drag as it is for FarSight employees to hear complaints on these fora or the crazy gauntlet that their Facebook page has become, FarSight should genuinely worry the day that users simply stop communicating at all because... well, they just stopped caring.

For me, the best way to provide feedback was to participate in the T2 kickstarter and become an iOS beta-tester. I'm proud not only of myself for the numerous specific issues that I've identified in pre-release versions of tables and in existing tables, but also of the other beta-testers for the amazing things they find, and most of all, of the FarSight team for their ability and virtuosity in crushing bugs and making improvements based on our feedback all the while maintaining a gracious and constructive attitude.

For others, the best way to provide feedback would be to continue to note specific bugs and help Sean Don Carlos keep his Master Issues List as crisp, specific, and up to date as possible. Yes, even when a bug has been around a long time, it is important that Sean and FarSight know that it still irritates and should compete for their attention and dev cycles.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping vigilant in discussing ways that The Pinball Arcade can be improved. If FarSight continues to understand which bugs, or art issues, or other irregularities grate their userbase, then as schedule and budget allow, they will address those issues. They've demonstrated a willingness and ability to do this in the past, and I see no reason to believe they won't in the future. In fact, their decision to drop down to a single table a month strikes me as a sage move to improve quality. The quality of the Season 3 tables in general bears this out.

I do sigh a bit at the indignant entitlement of some users about what they feel FarSight "owes" them, and charges by some users that FarSight is "incompentent" or "just doesn't care about users/quality" or what have you. I think couching complaints in those terms is too ad hominem and actually detracts from a user's credibility. If you hate me so much, why should I bother trying to make you happy.

It's fine to be passionate and even relentless about these issues. Indeed, that passion and relentlessness is indicative of how much the user base cares about The Pinball Arcade. As much of a drag as it is for FarSight employees to hear complaints on these fora or the crazy gauntlet that their Facebook page has become, FarSight should genuinely worry the day that users simply stop communicating at all because... well, they just stopped caring.

For me, the best way to provide feedback was to participate in the T2 kickstarter and become an iOS beta-tester. I'm proud not only of myself for the numerous specific issues that I've identified in pre-release versions of tables and in existing tables, but also of the other beta-testers for the amazing things they find, and most of all, of the FarSight team for their ability and virtuosity in crushing bugs and making improvements based on our feedback all while maintaining a gracious and constructive attitude.

For others, the best way to provide feedback would be to continue to note specific bugs and help Sean Don Carlos keep his Master Issues List as crisp, specific, and up to date as possible. Yes, even when a bug has been around a long time, it is important that Sean and FarSight know that it still irritates and should compete for their attention and dev cycles.

Great post.

 

[jbejarano]

Great post.

Thanks.

 

[brakel]

I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping vigilant in discussing ways that The Pinball Arcade can be improved. If FarSight continues to understand which bugs, or art issues, or other irregularities grate their userbase, then as schedule and budget allow, they will address those issues. They've demonstrated a willingness and ability to do this in the past, and I see no reason to believe they won't in the future. In fact, their decision to drop down to a single table a month strikes me as a sage move to improve quality. The quality of the Season 3 tables in general bears this out.

I do sigh a bit at the indignant entitlement of some users about what they feel FarSight "owes" them, and charges by some users that FarSight is "incompentent" or "just doesn't care about users/quality" or what have you. I think couching complaints in those terms is too ad hominem and actually detracts from a user's credibility. If you hate me so much, why should I bother trying to make you happy.

It's fine to be passionate and even relentless about these issues. Indeed, that passion and relentlessness is indicative of how much the userbase cares about The Pinball Arcade. As much of a drag as it is for FarSight employees to hear complaints on these fora or the crazy gauntlet that their Facebook page has become, FarSight should genuinely worry the day that users simply stop communicating at all because... well, they just stopped caring.

For me, the best way to provide feedback was to participate in the T2 kickstarter and become an iOS beta-tester. I'm proud not only of myself for the numerous specific issues that I've identified in pre-release versions of tables and in existing tables, but also of the other beta-testers for the amazing things they find, and most of all, of the FarSight team for their ability and virtuosity in crushing bugs and making improvements based on our feedback all while maintaining a gracious and constructive attitude.

For others, the best way to provide feedback would be to continue to note specific bugs and help Sean Don Carlos keep his Master Issues List as crisp, specific, and up to date as possible. Yes, even when a bug has been around a long time, it is important that Sean and FarSight know that it still irritates and should compete for their attention and dev cycles.

After one of the former PR reps for FarSight spent a fair amount of time gathering our thoughts about what should be fixed and improved only to have absolutely nothing done with that information, I lost most of my hope that anything that we post here will make a difference to how TPA updates are managed. When I was told how long it had been since any FarSight account had looked at any of the table bug threads, the rest of my hope was dashed.

This doesn't mean that I think they won't keep fixing things. Just they'll do what they want and prioritize as they see fit.

I love this forum but to me its a place where I go to talk about a game I love but not a place where I can help it be a better game.

Where's that nurse with my medication, dammit...

 

[jbejarano]

After one of the former PR reps for FarSight spent a fair amount of time gathering our thoughts about what should be fixed and improved only to have absolutely nothing done with that information, I lost most of my hope that anything that we post here will make a difference to how TPA updates are managed. When I was told how long it had been since any FarSight account had looked at any of the table bug threads, the rest of my hope was dashed.

This doesn't mean that I think they won't keep fixing things. Just they'll do what they want and prioritize as they see fit.

I love this forum but to me its a place where I go to talk about a game I love but not a place where I can help it be a better game.

Where's that nurse with my medication, dammit...

Yeah, it's never going to be perfect. A lot of the things that any one individual user feels are important or simple to fix may not be when viewed from FarSight's perspective. It's still fine to point out specific issues. Even having FarSight's ear as a beta-tester, some of the items I ask for don't get as much attention as I feel they should, but some do.

I always had a big problem with how the eject hole near the top of Scared Stiff's playfield would nearly always put the ball back into the deadheads and thus put the ball back into the same eject hole. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. It made the game nearly unplayable. Ultimately, FarSight fixed this issue, partly with my urging them to do so.

I've also brought up display issues with Bride Of Pinbot and Funhouse, start button issues with Funhouse and No Good Gofers, and a number of old, musty issues with Cirqus Voltaire (not to mention emulation of tables that were scripted) that have yet to be addressed.

Ultimately, game breakers (like the Scared Stiff issue) will get more attention. At some point, the others may get attention, and I hope they will soon. I'll continue to bring them up, because they continue to bother me, and The Pinball Arcade will get better if these issues are addressed. Many of the artwork issues mentioned in this thread are great and legitimate issues, that should get addressed at some point. We shouldn't let up on these issues, but we should not assume that they are easy to fix, or that they should necessarily take a higher priority than the production of new tables, and fixing more dire bugs.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

When I was told how long it had been since any FarSight account had looked at any of the table bug threads, the rest of my hope was dashed.

One of the FarSight employees generally wanders through the master issues lists an average of once a week. Considering my work schedule keeps me from updating them more than about once every two months, I'm not sure blame is properly directed at FarSight in this case.

The platform bug threads - particularly iOS, Android and PC - are looked at daily.

 

[wolfson]

hi fellas ,I left school at 15 in the early 1970s failing junior high.even this BOZO(me)can see Farsight has a small team and more than likely a small budget.we have 45 tables on pc ,not bad .a bit of art work a few bugs here and there doesn`t affect me.the tables are playable, to me that`s what counts.don`t forget the world isn`t perfect and neither are we. I understand with everyones views. they have fixed things along the way and most likely will continue to do so.it`s great for people to point out bugs and art work . I think they have done a great job with such a small team. happy easter everyone,our orthodox easter falls on the same day as everyone else this year.

 

[Jeff Strong]

One of the FarSight employees generally wanders through the master issues lists an average of once a week. Considering my work schedule keeps me from updating them more than about once every two months, I'm not sure blame is properly directed at FarSight in this case.

The platform bug threads - particularly iOS, Android and PC - are looked at daily.

Yes, they've gotten much better in this regard. Brakel is correct that there was a time when the table bug threads specifically weren't getting any attention from them at all, but they've really stepped up there.

 

[brakel]

Yes, they've gotten much better in this regard. Brakel is correct that there was a time when the table bug threads specifically weren't getting any attention from them at all, but they've really stepped up there.

That's good to hear. Perhaps my hope can be built back up. The PS3 patch really helped also.

 

[vikingerik]

I'm most worried about the game killing bugs. Lost balls on TOTAN and Ripley's, the stuck-ball lock bugs on Black Hole and Black Knight, the cannonball run camera lock on CV, the upper flipper stuck ball when ending LITZ. I wish I could fully play these tables but it's not worth my time (well I play TZ anyway) knowing odds are it will be wiped out by these bugs.

Actually, just noticed that 3 of those are the starter freebie tables. I guess I can't complain about not getting what we paid for there. But wouldn't you want your demo showcase to be a bit more solid?

I understand the lost balls are very difficult to reproduce and isolate, but man, just give us a way to fix it when it does happen. The program has to know it's no longer moving any balls around the table, why can't it just put a new one into the plunger? Or at the very least, give us an option to quit and submit the current score rather than losing it entirely. Farsight, there's money in it for you, I will buy Season 3 if and when I know you still care about these.