Farsight, we're breaking up - It's not me, it's you...

[night]

My jaw dropped after this post - http://digitalpinballfans.com/showt...n-Progress-features/page2?p=199414#post199414

How can a guy put out something like this on mobile that puts the tpa pc version to shame? How?

Talent.

 

[Baron Rubik]

Talent.

 

[jaredmorgs]

Talent.

I don't think lack of talent is a factor.

The mobile game engine was never intended to run advanced lighting because of architectural design decisions made at the inception of the project.

Having said that, I challenge FarSight to release a build for iOS and Android that contains PC resources and sound and see how it performs on modern devices.

While I'd love to see this happen, I have a strong feeling this won't happen for the following reasons:

Reason 1

The current graphics engine will not be able to lock to 60fps with all the extra LoD and Polygon constraints. This will cause errant ball physics issues and make the game regress in enjoyment and functionality.

From what I've gathered from the earlier beta testing threads I've been exposed to, the GPU is used for FPS (logically) and the CPU is used for game emulation (which is actually not as CPU intensive as you might suspect. Much of the heavy lifting is actually done by the overtaxed GPU thread. Yep, a single thread.

For FarSight to retroactively do this, they would need to optimize the GPU thread, most likely rewrite the Graphics handling part of the engine, and then take into consideration Reason 2.

Reason 2

I also suspect that suddenly enabling PC detail for the prosperous Mobile channels would also result in a significant jump in Content Delivery Network (CDN) bandwidth, which would not have been budgeted for when the project was originally conceived and planned.

Consoles and PC feature increased RES file sizes and increased sound package file sizes.

This is definitely something that would impact prices of tables if the decision was made to push builds with environmental lighting and Console/PC grade graphics.

I could not even begin to speculate how much it would add to a DLC pack, or Season Pass. But considering that some folks here already think the cost is too high I wouldn't be taking the risk.

How much would you be willing to pay extra for a mobile DLC or Season Pass? Everything has a cost.

 

[Baron Rubik]

I don't think lack of talent is a factor.

Maybe it should have said Care or Effort then.
Problem with Farsight for me is, they'll do something well on one table, and then the same thing horrendously bad on the next. (Transparent ramps in Cyclone - just one example).
Half assed. Careless, and I'd still argue they lack the talent that the Ask homework team have, it just doesn't show in their end product.

I know you still love them and respect that, but I've personally given up on them ever changing (a long time ago), and don't really want to buy their product once my current pass expires (other than the odd table I really fancy). I certainly wouldn't be interested in a more expensive product from them.

Farsight could only win when it was a one horse race. It isn't anymore. And I don't think Ask are polishing this engine currently, just to let it sit and stagnate after Zacc. The future looks bright.

 

[jaredmorgs]

I know you still love them and respect that, but I've personally given up on them ever changing (a long time ago), and don't really want to buy their product once my current pass expires (other than the odd table I really fancy). I certainly wouldn't be interested in a more expensive product from them.

That's fair enough, and I respect your choices.

 

[kinggo]

But considering that some folks here already think the cost is too high I wouldn't be taking the risk.

How much would you be willing to pay extra for a mobile DLC or Season Pass? Everything has a cost.

whoever thinks that 4$ per table is too costly is IMO wrong. Pinball as it was/is is expensive to buy and to operate, even for personal use. So if we want a good digital recreation we should be ready to pay for it. And for 4$ I really don't expect much. Sure, I am complaining about things but I don't think that tables are expensive. With 4$ I can't last an hour on the real deal. It's quite simple for me, TPA gives a lot more to me than FS ask in return. It can and shoud be a lot better but for 4$ per table it is great.
So if FS ever decide to keep TPA relevant on newer HW that really is powerful enough I'm all in for TPA 2.0 and I would buy all tables again even if they are 10$. Or more. A lot more. And it would still be just a fraction of what I spent on real pinball.

 

[night]

I don't think lack of talent is a factor.

The mobile game engine was never intended to run advanced lighting because of architectural design decisions made at the inception of the project.

No no no, let's not talk about engines and the lack off, that is a weak excuse! For more than 1,5 years I have been advocating for bake-in lighting fx and shadows on TPA playfield images. You don't need an engine to do just that! We can see this was reasonably well done on the older tables and completely abscent on (for example) Cyclone and many, many others. What Farsight is doing now is making the 3D elements and applying the texture maps, just as they are scanned in. This can be done if you have a dynamic lighting fx engine who takes care of shadows and highlights. Farsight does not have such a thing so then they must simulate this by first applying the lighting fx and shadows on the image-maps, and then apply it on the 3D elements. This will make a night and day difference! (Again, see the old tables). Forget about Farsights engine, making good image maps with at least some shadows is something every reasonably well talented graphic artist can do. And Farsight does not do that, and so the results are flat, lifeless and unappealing.

 

[Baron Rubik]

Aside from Night's excellent points on Good Artistry, the underlying core physics are bad also.
I played Farsights Addams Family properly for the first time last week (got swept up with Zacc just as it released).
I only get a 40minute break for dinner, and on my first ever play I did two tours through the mansion and had to let the game drain after 40mins of one game, partly due to time, but also boredom.
Railroad physics, unconfigurable tuning, unrealistic flipper physics.

I can have some Zacc games that don't last 60seconds, and this is how it should be, it's how real Pinball is and what makes you want to play it again and again.
After one game of Farsights Addams Family, I doubt I'll go back and play it again, which can't be right. Zzzzz.

 

[kinggo]

why all this "tuning" talk. I agree that physics on TPA is far from perfect but where on earth you were able to tune anything on the real machine? Unless it is your own.
Have to say that I'm still not sold on zaccs tables, didn't even play them much but I don't want biger flippers, I don't want hevier/lighter balls, I don't want different slopes.....
Camera angles is fine, TPA really suck big time when it comes to camera angles on mobile platforms. But other than that I want good default settings/physics and thats it. Otherwise all the scores,leader boards, tournaments makes no sense.
But all those talks about endless boring games......... I don't know, maybe I suck to much but I don't have a problems with endless games. Nudging on tablets is difficult, touch zones are to high for me, some tables are brutal, ali in all, most of my games are arround 10-15 minutes mark and from time to time I do have a longer game but I never manged to roll the table or go infinite with EBs or get bored because I can't drain.

Of course, if I would play TPA on PC all that would be different. But that's why I play mobile version although it is visually by far inferior to PC/ console ports.

 

[jaredmorgs]

For more than 1,5 years I have been advocating for bake-in lighting fx and shadows on TPA playfield images. You don't need an engine to do just that! We can see this was reasonably well done on the older tables and completely abscent on (for example) Cyclone and many, many others. .
...
Farsight does not have such a thing so then they must simulate this by first applying the lighting fx and shadows on the image-maps, and then apply it on the 3D elements. This will make a night and day difference! (Again, see the old tables). Forget about Farsights engine, making good image maps with at least some shadows is something every reasonably well talented graphic artist can do. And Farsight does not do that, and so the results are flat, lifeless and unappealing.

Fair point.

 

[Baron Rubik]

why all this "tuning" talk.

It's the easiest method to suit the biggest group of people.
It could make TPA significantly more playable if difficulty could be increased, and railroad physics paths could be worked around if slingshot or bounce was adjustable.

 

[jaredmorgs]

why all this "tuning" talk. I agree that physics on TPA is far from perfect but where on earth you were able to tune anything on the real machine? Unless it is your own.
Have to say that I'm still not sold on zaccs tables, didn't even play them much but I don't want biger flippers, I don't want hevier/lighter balls, I don't want different slopes.....

I don't really get these things either. I would say that a reason why physics tuning is such a big drawcard for Zacc is that the default "Simulation" tuning is somewhat unrealistic. Even with the new engine. It is heaps better (anecdotally, because I am an Android newbie to the established iOS crew) than then old physics.

From what I've read (and douse me with boiling oil if I'm wrong), the right tuning for one table doesn't quite reflect reality on another table.

There are threads about tuning the settings just right to get what is apparently a close to table feel for the old engine, and I believe that these threads have slightly different values.

Here we come down to user preference.

Camera angles is fine, TPA really suck big time when it comes to camera angles on mobile platforms. But other than that I want good default settings/physics and thats it. Otherwise all the scores,leader boards, tournaments makes no sense.

This is another good point. One of the questions asked in the Zacc Interview thread was how leaderboards were going to be sorted for all the customized values. I'll be interested to hear what ASK's response is to this, because with the current heavily customizable physics engine they use, locking this down to a preset may be hard to swallow for some users.

But all those talks about endless boring games......... I don't know, maybe I suck to much but I don't have a problems with endless games. Nudging on tablets is difficult, touch zones are to high for me...

Regarding touch zones, you know you can configure those to your liking. This is covered in http://jaredmorgs.github.io/Pinball_Arcade_Users_Guide_Android/#adjusting_the_launch_button_position (applicable to iOS as well).

Regarding nudging, I would strongly recommend getting a hardware controller (if you are on Android). You won't look back if you do. I can't speak for controller support on iOS, but I understand it exists in some form.

http://jaredmorgs.github.io/Pinball_Arcade_Users_Guide_Android/#Controller_Settings

 

[kinggo]

Regarding touch zones, you know you can configure those to your liking. This is covered in http://jaredmorgs.github.io/Pinball_Arcade_Users_Guide_Android/#adjusting_the_launch_button_position (applicable to iOS as well).

Regarding nudging, I would strongly recommend getting a hardware controller (if you are on Android). You won't look back if you do. I can't speak for controller support on iOS, but I understand it exists in some form.

I know, but none of them is exactly what I want. I opened a thread about this once but it didn't go far http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/8412-One-more-touch-scheme-for-portrait

When it comes to controller, I'm not ready to give up the comfort of lying in my bed and playing TPA or generally to use more than one device. I did try to play it with PS3 controller and it is better but I'm a conformist , that's also one of the reasons I don't play TPA on PC. And another touch scheme would solve this, or at leas make it a lot better. I started TPA on galaxy tab 7 then switch to galaxy tab 3 8" and it is still the problem. I is fine on 5" but that's all that it is fine on 5". Now I'm back on 7" because my cat knock down GT3 and it broke.

 

[night]

From what I've read (and douse me with boiling oil if I'm wrong), the right tuning for one table doesn't quite reflect reality on another table.

There are threads about tuning the settings just right to get what is apparently a close to table feel for the old engine, and I believe that these threads have slightly different values.

True, I have been working on new physics since the introduction of the new engine a couple of weeks ago. I think the new physics are good, especially compared to the old, but they are a bit too fast and frantic compared to real physics. Looking at vids of real Zacc tables, some are extremely slow, others behave faster.
Finding a realistic approach takes a lot of testing. The thing is, like you said, each table plays different and seems to behave different.

@Baron posted new physics settings as well in a thread, but I can't find them anymore. Perhaps we can start a new physics thread and post physics experiments over there. Overall I think the new physics are great, but it just needs a little tune down.

 

[Baron Rubik]

@Baron posted new physics settings as well in a thread, but I can't find them

This is my current setup.
I put more force into the bumpers to make it interesting, kept the slings a little lower in power for an older table feel. Can't decide if the flipper force is too high though.

 

[jaredmorgs]

I know, but none of them is exactly what I want. I opened a thread about this once but it didn't go far http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/8412-One-more-touch-scheme-for-portrait

When it comes to controller, I'm not ready to give up the comfort of lying in my bed and playing TPA or generally to use more than one device. I did try to play it with PS3 controller and it is better but I'm a conformist , that's also one of the reasons I don't play TPA on PC. And another touch scheme would solve this, or at leas make it a lot better. I started TPA on galaxy tab 7 then switch to galaxy tab 3 8" and it is still the problem. I is fine on 5" but that's all that it is fine on 5". Now I'm back on 7" because my cat knock down GT3 and it broke.

Bumped it with a mention to the Dev. Let's see what happens, aye? For both Android and iOS.

 

[night]

This is my current setup.
I put more force into the bumpers to make it interesting, kept the slings a little lower in power for an older table feel. Can't decide if the flipper force is too high though.

Hi Baron, thanks for this! I am trying your physics. A quick test, I do find the bumper and slings too low for my taste. I understand your point about flipper power, but something I have been running into with these experiments is that a too low Velocity and flipper power will become problematic with tables like Robot and Spooky to get the ball up on that railway. So you need this force somehow. I really like how heavy the ball feels when you set back the Velocity level all the way to 0% (and this affects flipper force as well), it feels realistic but cannot get the ball up there anymore. So I have been gone forth and back with these settings. I have to test it with yours. I can do this kind of tweaking for hours!

 

[Baron Rubik]

Hi Baron, thanks for this! I am trying your physics. A quick test, I do find the bumper and slings too low for my taste. I understand your point about flipper power, but something I have been running into with these experiments is that a too low Velocity and flipper power will become problematic with tables like Robot and Spooky to get the ball up on that railway. So you need this force somehow. I really like how heavy the ball feels when you set back the Velocity level all the way to 0% (and this affects flipper force as well), it feels realistic but cannot get the ball up there anymore. So I have been gone forth and back with these settings. I have to test it with yours. I can do this kind of tweaking for hours!

I'd love to try yours too when you feel ready to share them.
I'd love to find a perfect combo of authentic, but challenging.

 

[night]

I'd love to try yours too when you feel ready to share them.
I'd love to find a perfect combo of authentic, but challenging.

Yes, yes, tweaking, tweaking! Shot that railway in Spooky twice with Velocity set back on 50%, and Velocity is really the key in ball heaviness and flipper speed.
Indeed, we need to find a middle of the road setting that plays authentic but not too slow.

 

[Mike Lindsey]

Hey everyone! I've been following this thread and can see lots of valid complaints. The main thing that sticks out for me is the comparison to Zaccaria Pinball. The first thing that needs to be said, is that there is plenty of room for more pinball and we are very impressed with the quality they are able to produce. Currently, the emulation is a very taxing process for mobile devices and does not leave much room for improved graphics. Especially when supporting older devices is necessary. That doesn't mean we won't be able to do it in the future.