farsite vp and fp

[rob3d]

Now I love VP and FP so keep that in mind while I spout some nonsense regarding all this.

IP law is murky at best. But in the past I've done work with 24-hour t-shirts where IP issues come up a lot. Basically any company that licenses the rights to any property for a product can sue at any time. Meaning if FS really wanted to they are well within their legal rights to try and stop anyone else from creating so called derivative works. That could include any and all recreations of pinball tables they own the licences to on other software. Also the cost of a cease and desist letter is literally zero dollars. Any in house attorney on retainer can draft them and issue them at will. C&D are usually where it all stops because the hobbyist developer wants to avoid litigation. If you think FS doesn't have enough money to sue if they need to, I can at least guarantee you they have more at their disposal than the hobbyist developer. Especially when you consider the lawyers they hire to facilitate the IP purchase in the first place may have also included some minor IP protection services in their initial fees.


That said I really doubt any of that will ever be an issue. Smaller companies like the t-shirt sites I mentioned hardly ever go this route because its a non starter. You spend time and money on something that earns no good will with your fan base.

Of course if it hurt their bottom line they can do something, but I don't think it would affect them at all.

 

[Shockman]

I too was once one of VP's biggest fans, but that changed when it went commercial.

 

[Worf]

Farsight has no power on VP. They can ask for VP tables to be taken down, but it's really the IP rights holders who can do anything. (They can demand Farsight force them to take down the offending VP tables, or try to, if it's in the contract).

The only rights Farsight has is if the VP table makers use Farsight's assets to do so - i.e., they decompile the tables that Farsight releases and use them directly in the VP table. At this point, Farsight does have a legal right to pursue the derivative work (it was derived from their work). But if someone independently clones the table, they don't really have a case.

Anyhow, legal pursuit is very unlikely given how long VP has been around. Gottlieb was the only IP holder to take offense and request that their IP be taken down. It's why you cannot find Gottlieb ROMs on IPDB. But this happened over a decade ago. And Williams, etc., all knew about VP and they did for a time withdraw their ROMs from their download site in an attempt to curb it. It's only made its way back purely because they're out of the game and the harm is quite minimal these days.

Now, Farsight DOES have the right to go and tell the IP rights holder about VP if they feel it's competing against their product. But in most jurisdictions, only the IP rights holder can go after violators. (Imagine the fun that would happen if anyone could go after an IP rights violator). Some jurisdictions, like Germany, do allow 3rd parties unconnected with the rights holder to go after violators. But Farsight's ability to demand a takedown is shaky at best.

Plus, they have better things to worry about. (And no, Farsight does not have "clean hands" in this as a few of their employees have participated in the past on VP projects). And yes, Farsight definitely knows about VP, and many of Farsight's recreations also have VP equivalents and have had 'em for years.

 

[karl]

I disagree with everything you say in the first half of your post worf,(read my earlier post on the subject in this thread). Sorry if I sound rude, but you come off sounding like you and only you know what Farsight can and can not do and I feel it is necessary to point out that some of us have a different view of the facts.


I do however agree 100% that Farsight will not got after the VP or FP community, simply because Bobby King has told us that many times.

Edited out some unnecessary rubbish from myself ;-)

 

[Shockman]

The very last thing VP, VirtuaPin, or Pinball Arcade can do is make a pinball game. Anyones pinball game. Licence or not. They both make video games. You can pretend that it is pinball just as you can pretend that Sega's Daytona USA IS auto racing. It is the IP holders of the theme that can and does protect their IP. If Farsight does not protect the IP they licensed, then they are flakey. If they partner with a company like VirtuaPin that promotes copyright infringement, in targeting VirtuaPin as a supported platform, they are crooks.

I mention VirtuaPin because it is the target platform and only supported platform of Visual Pinball. Much of The PC keyboard control has been stripped out and nudging totally destroyed. It's also just one man removed from taboo. So when you talk about people and what they say, remember Paul and what he said, and what he ended up doing.

 

[The loafer]

Oh boy...

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

You do realize that the major reason the PC version of TPA has been delayed for so long is that FarSight needed to get on Steam, right? And that the reason they had to use Steam is because Steam has DRM...to help protect their licensors' IP.

So if/when FarSight does enter the cabinet world, the cabinet will almost certainly be required to have Steam running. Inconvenient, yes, but necessary to satisfy the licensors that reasonable care was taken in protecting their rights.

 

[Ark Malmeida]

Right. I'm not into the VP scene so I don't know all that goes on, but I don't see how Farsight interfacing with some of the VirtuaPin's APIs/custom hardware would make them crooks as long as they are protecting the IP that they licensed.

 

[Shockman]

No table re-creation that Farsight has planned is not already done in VP/VPM. These that are already done has used that IP without license. It would be shady at best for them to throw their licensed IP in that mix. Their refined resources are are going to be used by VP table builders either way, but to be that close as to support a business model like VirtuaPin would make no business sense and would be unfair to the IP owners. They would also have to do something that the VPdevs says is not possible and has refused to do in the years it has been targeting this niche hardware and that is to make it work with a desktop PC with a keyboard like it use to. Now I don't believe for a second that that is true, but it is the stand of the owner of VPforums and VirtuaPin.

This stand prompted me to propose that two builds of VP be maintained, being that there is the two platforms (PC and cab.). It would be easy to return the native function that would let non cab builders/buyers in a version that had no problem without breaking the cabinet hardware function and future features could be applied to both versions. I was told that such a build would not only not be hosted there, and I am talking about VPF which claims to be the hub of the VP community, not VirtuaPin, but that it could not be linked to either there. This should end any doubt that VP is now commercial and limited to the VirtuaPin company as far as the hub of the VP community site or his other interests.

I did not truly expect two builds but instead the devs to admit that existing code could be put back and that a routine that is called from a keystroke could co-exist with an unrelated routing that is called from a pot reading. It comes down to variables. UltraPin VP, which is what VP9 is derived from used the variables that existed instead of creating code from scratch. It can keep them. A routine using existing code from VP<9 would be shorter than this post and use new variables and be totally unrelated to the analog routine and any of it's function by anyone on the dev team, in my opinion. It would be an action for the community, but is unnecessary only if the aim is to maintain the niche hardware requirement. Nudging is a basic function and the policy IS now to keep that function that was taken out to support commercial interest out.

Until vpforums.org, and VirtuaPin, this was unthinkable.

 

[superballs]

I'm going to have to repeat myself a lot in this post I'm afraid.

It's never too early to speculate about law. This notion gets people into trouble. People should always speculate on this.

The backlash of not taking action would set a precedent that they could surely not afford. You think they would spend many thousands then imply through inaction that that spending was for no purpose?

VP products, hardware, software, applications, are not free. The exclusiveness of the recreated tables, the inside trading of taboo tables, the elimination of features that make it useful without the commercial hardware that VPF is selling, and the banning of people that would dare to say that VP is less than perfect and going backwards in some respects should either be the death of VPF, or Farsight is the fools of the world for paying a penny for any rights.

What exclusiveness? The tables are recreated by people on their own time and they are shared either with the site or privately at the table author's discretion. It's always been that way. The authors hold all distribution authority to everything they create and it's always been like that. What are you complaining about? This has nothing to do with VirtuaPin whatsoever. I've also been pointing out for years that VP is less than perfect and have not been banned from VPForums so you are either a lunatic or a liar.

I love VP. That said, I would prefer to have TPA tables IF they are of comparable quality. That is yet to be seen. I have hope that I will be able to replace VP tables with TPA ones eventually.
Try as they might, they would not be able to stop VP. It would just go underground.
I think it is in FarSights best interest to look the other way. Most VP users are TPA users. They would open up a nasty can of worms if they did anything.

I agree with you here. I've been a fan of VP for a long time and even have shared a video (several times) here with my first time getting a "cabinet" table working with a second monitor etc...also running HS2 the Getaway.

Farsight might take the position that the money spent on the rights to do this was just to spend money and not to actually buy something, that is true. They might also be stupid enough to allow some to infringe and actually sue others. They will have to answer for the position they take though, that much is certain.

Farsight has said numerous times that their goal is to preserve pinball and they would not be doing themselves a service by alienating one of the largest pinball communities out there. And what company spends money on rights just to spend money?

If they stay within the terms then there would be no risk. Unless they build in support for Virtuapin cabs as they have been asked to. Then they would be the only legal part of that, software wise, and that is only if their license is to create content for any platform they wanted to which I doubt is the case. To partner with Virtuapin in any way, to ignore the content of VPF which for all intents and purposes they will own, and to selectively reserve their rights, would be unwise.

Of course TPA is not necessary, but who do you think TPA paid for these rights? You are right that VPforums is not in the mercy of just TPA, in relations to this IP, but many studios, anyone of which could wonder what it means to sell license of their IP to farsight. If Farsight makes Virtuapin (a platform built for copyright infringement) a target platform then you know what the answer is, and they do too.

VirtuaPin is not a platform in and of itself. It's just a PC outputting to two or three monitors (high quality ones at that), and has Happ Controls buttons interfaced as keyboard inputs. Anyone can build one of these but using the components they use it would cost a lot, they are high quality components. You could make the same argument that having a pc enables the use of torrents so the pc platform is geared toward copyright infringement. Yes, it's intended for a specific use, but the ROMs they host are hosted legally. There are several supporters that pay to support the site. This money helps cover hosting fees and licensing.

I too was once one of VP's biggest fans, but that changed when it went commercial.

How did they go commercial? The owner started selling a standardized configuration using high quality PC components, high quality monitors, well organized cable harnesses. Noah managed to take a hobby and make it into a business. He does not sell VP and cannot make it unavailable. The software is open source, both VP and VPMAME, he can sell it if he wants but must provide the source code or a link to the source code. Frankly, if you don't like the direction the people who are actually working on it are taking with it. Get the code and modify it yourself or STFU, you are as much in control of VP as they are but if you don't like what is being done, then you do your own thing. Noah sells particle board and pc components. That is not copyright infringement. It's no different than if he built easy to assemble chairs like IKEA.

The very last thing VP, VirtuaPin, or Pinball Arcade can do is make a pinball game. Anyones pinball game. Licence or not. They both make video games. You can pretend that it is pinball just as you can pretend that Sega's Daytona USA IS auto racing. It is the IP holders of the theme that can and does protect their IP. If Farsight does not protect the IP they licensed, then they are flakey. If they partner with a company like VirtuaPin that promotes copyright infringement, in targeting VirtuaPin as a supported platform, they are crooks.

I mention VirtuaPin because it is the target platform and only supported platform of Visual Pinball. Much of The PC keyboard control has been stripped out and nudging totally destroyed. It's also just one man removed from taboo. So when you talk about people and what they say, remember Paul and what he said, and what he ended up doing.

Again, VirtuaPin is not a platform, it's just a PC with specialized inputs. Where does it promote copyright infringement? You can load VP and make your own tables. And really nice ones at that (check out BOB5453's stellar originals). As long as the tables themselves are never sold and there is no request by the IP holders to take down the roms (which they have had ample time to do, VPForums is not a very well kept secret). A non-contributing visitor can sign up and download up to 5 (or 6?) tables a day....a freaking day! There is no such limits on roms or other related downloads...just table files. Honestly as long as you get one Groni or JPSalas table, that should be enough to keep you busy for a day. Especially if you have to take the time to configure each one to play in cabinet view. But if you are just playing the desktop version, it's just drop them into a folder and make sure the config file is referencing the proper rom name and play.

No table re-creation that Farsight has planned is not already done in VP/VPM. These that are already done has used that IP without license. It would be shady at best for them to throw their licensed IP in that mix. Their refined resources are are going to be used by VP table builders either way, but to be that close as to support a business model like VirtuaPin would make no business sense and would be unfair to the IP owners. They would also have to do something that the VPdevs says is not possible and has refused to do in the years it has been targeting this niche hardware and that is to make it work with a desktop PC with a keyboard like it use to. Now I don't believe for a second that that is true, but it is the stand of the owner of VPforums and VirtuaPin.

This stand prompted me to propose that two builds of VP be maintained, being that there is the two platforms (PC and cab.). It would be easy to return the native function that would let non cab builders/buyers in a version that had no problem without breaking the cabinet hardware function and future features could be applied to both versions. I was told that such a build would not only not be hosted there, and I am talking about VPF which claims to be the hub of the VP community, not VirtuaPin, but that it could not be linked to either there. This should end any doubt that VP is now commercial and limited to the VirtuaPin company as far as the hub of the VP community site or his other interests.

I did not truly expect two builds but instead the devs to admit that existing code could be put back and that a routine that is called from a keystroke could co-exist with an unrelated routing that is called from a pot reading. It comes down to variables. UltraPin VP, which is what VP9 is derived from used the variables that existed instead of creating code from scratch. It can keep them. A routine using existing code from VP<9 would be shorter than this post and use new variables and be totally unrelated to the analog routine and any of it's function by anyone on the dev team, in my opinion. It would be an action for the community, but is unnecessary only if the aim is to maintain the niche hardware requirement. Nudging is a basic function and the policy IS now to keep that function that was taken out to support commercial interest out.

Until vpforums.org, and VirtuaPin, this was unthinkable.

Again, you seem to think that PC and CAB are seperate platforms. They are not, they are both PC with VP configured differently and using entirely different table files. You want to play a 4:3 table, you load the 4:3 table.

And again, there are no "VP Developers" It's open source software. Get the code and build your own if you have issues with their direction. Don't know how to? Then learn if it's that important to you. I have been using VP for years. Non- cabinet players are more than 80% of their membership. Cabinet players are even more of a niche than pinball players in general.

[Mod Edit: I've removed two sentences that crossed the line into personal attack. Since the vast majority of the post is germane to the argument, it can stay, but keep it civil going forward, please.]

 

[Pinballfan69]

Honestly I've just been trying out VP and some of the tables they have to offer. Especially ones that I would love FS to add to TPA. Those are LOTR, Indiana Jones, TSPP WCS 94. These are decent table emulations but nothing compared to what FS can do. I've been playing LOTR a lot and it's quite addicting even on VP.

I have no idea what legal ramifications are etc. The VP community is huge and the quality of tables produced is impressive. However I would much prefer to have these tables in TPA so I can score chase with friends and try to get to the top 100 or 10 if that is that case.

 

[superballs]

Pinballfan,

I'm just starting a new thread on a development within the VP community that had been stalled for quite a while but is being worked on again that is potentially quite exciting.

 

[Shockman]

I have played many hundreds of VP tables, have followed it from it's first release and have used the editor sense V3, have put together a couple re-creations, and have worked on the source code. I also made a bagatelle editor based on VP code, replacing the flipper with a nail. I have also came up with workarounds for quite a few of VP's problems of the time, and helped many people with the editor. I know that as far as the niche hardware it is getting better and I know as a desktop program with a keyboard it is going backwards. I also understand that the only reason for this is a sad and needless one and nothing for anyone to be proud of.

In my opinion there are two platforms as every aspect of the hardware on the cabinet needs code routines. It could have gone two ways. The niche hardware adding or the niche hardware replacing. My opinion is that anything that makes VP worse in any way is not a good thing. And that is what I am doing. Giving my opinion. I am not quoting positions that convinced me that this is dictated.

 

[superballs]

What aspects of hardware need different code routines between desktops and cabs? They've had analogue nudge support since 9.08 at least and everything esle, minus the external DMD support is simply wired through a USB interface and only sends keyboard commands through that. What exactly was taken out and replaced so that only a cabinet user can use it?

 

[bob5453]

I'm going to have to repeat myself a lot in this post I'm afraid.

Again, VirtuaPin is not a platform, it's just a PC with specialized inputs. Where does it promote copyright infringement? You can load VP and make your own tables. And really nice ones at that (check out BOB5453's stellar originals).

Thanks Superballs. I haven't loaded up VP for awhile, TPA on the PS3 is more than enough for me to get my required pinball fix and Zen Pinball is the perfect outlet for fantasy pinball. TPA & Zen are great for plug and play, whereas VP can be a pain in the ass for about 95% of the people that try to use it.

 

[Shockman]

VP use to have pretty decent nudging. It's a command that reacts to a keystroke and bumps the display on the monitor and has an impact on the ball. Of course cabinet users don't want to see their playfield jolt because the whole cabinet jolts with a physical nudge. It's a great feature that works well. It has been this way since 9.0. As I said it is a great feature. But nudging with a keyboard was a great feature as well and no single feature that VP9 has added in my opinion is worth losing basic function.

I don't know how you play pinball, but I use all the techniques I can to get the most out of a game. That includes nudging and without a properly set up cabinet VP1 was better than VP9 in that respect.

I have played Bobs tables. I still have them on my broken computer. You have no idea of my involvement in the VP community, and time I have spent inside the VP editor, but let me say it dates back to before VPF.org, before VPM, and before VPF.com.

 

[The loafer]

Where's the popcorn?

Hmmm, here I thought the VP source code had built in support for the pinball wizard controller, which is primarily used by desktop owners. I'm probably wrong on that though...

Certainly cabs have brought a lot of excitement not only with VP fans but table devs as well which we can see from the many new FS version of tables out. Now, going with the logic provided by a member here, should we assume that these FS table devs are in on the conspiracy to commercialize VP? Or can we take a leap of faith that maybe, just maybe, the new "hot" item is driving development which is pretty much how the world works; and not driven by someone making some money supplying parts that people are asking for? They sure ain't being shoved down anyone's throat and TBH the price point is so high for the full fledged cabinets that its a niche market anyway.

Its been said perfectly well by Superballs and its been said in the past too: VP is open source so anyone want to add to it, go ahead!

 

[Hugh Jorgen]

Loaf, you have been fighting this guy for years ... And I do mean years ... Kick back and let others fight him,
Or hopefully he just gives up this obsessive crusade.

 

[superballs]

Thanks Superballs. I haven't loaded up VP for awhile, TPA on the PS3 is more than enough for me to get my required pinball fix and Zen Pinball is the perfect outlet for fantasy pinball. TPA & Zen are great for plug and play, whereas VP can be a pain in the ass for about 95% of the people that try to use it.

Bob, It's an absolute pleasure to see you here. And the fact that TPA is enough for you should speak volumes of the quality of the program, despite whatever bugs are in it. While TPA has really taken over most of my video pinball time, I've had to plug your tables here a few times simply because i think that they should be experienced by all as they are great examples of how good VP is for original tables.
I've also been quite out of touch as I only found out today that JPSalas retired from making tables. Good on him to get some rest but a sad time indeed for the VP community.

VP use to have pretty decent nudging. It's a command that reacts to a keystroke and bumps the display on the monitor and has an impact on the ball. Of course cabinet users don't want to see their playfield jolt because the whole cabinet jolts with a physical nudge. It's a great feature that works well. It has been this way since 9.0. As I said it is a great feature. But nudging with a keyboard was a great feature as well and no single feature that VP9 has added in my opinion is worth losing basic function.

I don't know how you play pinball, but I use all the techniques I can to get the most out of a game. That includes nudging and without a properly set up cabinet VP1 was better than VP9 in that respect.

I have played Bobs tables. I still have them on my broken computer. You have no idea of my involvement in the VP community, and time I have spent inside the VP editor, but let me say it dates back to before VPF.org, before VPM, and before VPF.com.

Quite frankly, i don't give a toss if you personally wrote VP from the ground up. It doesn't make what you are saying any truer. I have the latest build of VP on my laptop right now. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt and thought...hmm maybe it's because I'm a couple versions back. Guess what. Playing in desktop mode and nudging works exactly as it did before. VP 8 had superhuman nudging capabilities, so if you are referring to the toning down of nudging a bit in VP9, well it was a good move. Even as it is, I can put much more effect on the ball than I should be able to in VP9, the nudging makes TPA nudging look weak.

Furthermore, nudging properties is also very much in the hands of the table authors and many write their own nudging scripts... not to mention that the table script itself contains the code to stop the screen from giving visual feedback. So really, what has been lost?

You claim to have had so much involvement with VP, how can you possibly not see the more than obvious nudge effect? You have not described once what functionality has been lost. If it's nudging, than you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. I'm flat out calling BS on any of your claimed involvement as I can't believe that someone who is capable of actually authoring tables and modifying source code is incapable of configuring a keyboard mapping to a command called "left nudge" "right nudge" or "upward nudge" in a GUI option screen.

In case it's too complicated for you:

If you look to the lower right, they even added analog nudging. And support for controller mappings. Wow, what a loss of functionality. I can play my pinball tables in either desktop or full screen mode, and I can finally plug in a controller.

Please, explain what technique you use that isn't represented in VP. I'm starting to think it's "removing the glass and moving the ball around". I even think there's a way to do that still.

Loaf, you have been fighting this guy for years ... And I do mean years ... Kick back and let others fight him,
Or hopefully he just gives up this obsessive crusade.

Yeah let me take over for a while. I'm not bored of him yet.

 

[Shockman]

Specifically recoil. Google Recoil. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Pinball is not immune to this law either. But recoil IS gone. It was not only there in VP8, it was always there. Directions are not a problem, power is not a problem, though I think defaults should be realistic, anything that has settings is not a problem. It has nothing to do with which keys you choose though.

Funny you would mention removing the glass. Without recoil which in terms of pinball is simulating the legs springs the whole table back after a nudge, removing the glass is not necessary to move the ball anywhere using nothing but the nudge keys. This law of physics is simulated in many pinball simulations, including all previous versions of VP. Not in VP9 though.