Flipper Friction needed: This can improve most/all tables

[FurVid]

If the friction were too low, the ball would slide instead of rolling. It certainly seems to be rolling to me (will be easier to see when we get special custom balls). If you think it's too fast, then need to reduce gravity or the table pitch. I haven't bought the pro version yet, and not sure if I will (just not that interested - I also never turn tilt off). Having an option to change table pitch or gravity would probably be fun though (so long as leaderboards are turned off when anything like that changes), so hopefully that's something they can do in the future.

 

[brakel]

Yeah I'm not sure where this idea that they won't tweak older tables came from, given that new updates usually do feature a lot of tweaks (sometimes causing new bugs to previous tables.

It came from Bobby's comments about tweaks to the physics in the playstation blog. He basically said that each tables physics improvements are different. So the newer tables that have improved physics were done when built. They can't apply the same tweaks to the older tables across the board because they will get different results. He implied that they won't be going back to re-do old tables with new physics. They will still apply fixes across the board to the engine. I'm afraid that some things like flipper issues might be on a table by table process to fix also. I guess we'll see as time goes on. To me its not a game ender but it is disappointing to think that they won't continue to tweak all the published tables as they find fixes and improvements in newer tables.

He also said that they might not be able to fix Black Knight. I don't get that at all.

 

[Richard B]

It came from Bobby's comments about tweaks to the physics in the playstation blog. He basically said that each tables physics improvements are different. So the newer tables that have improved physics were done when built. They can't apply the same tweaks to the older tables across the board because they will get different results. He implied that they won't be going back to re-do old tables with new physics. They will still apply fixes across the board to the engine. I'm afraid that some things like flipper issues might be on a table by table process to fix also. I guess we'll see as time goes on. To me its not a game ender but it is disappointing to think that they won't continue to tweak all the published tables as they find fixes and improvements in newer tables.

He also said that they might not be able to fix Black Knight. I don't get that at all.

Does anyone have a link to this original article?

 

[Jeff Strong]

Does anyone have a link to this original article?

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/2367-Hurry!-Bobby-is-answering-questions!!

 

[smbhax]

What he says on there--in response to whether they'll go back and retouch physics on earlier tables--is:

The answer is YES, if something is wrong or clearly needs adjusting – we will.

Glad to hear you like how CFTBL is tuned, because it’s one of my favorite real tables and I heard a couple complaints about it’s physics in our game lately. What specifically do you find wrong (or needing improvement) on Medieval? I know that the return to the right in-lane was missing collision that would stop and drop the ball as oppose to letting it speed on past.

So yeah I mean obviously they're not going to go rebuild the entire collision meshes or whatever on the older tables just because they're better at it now than they were when they started and the tables could maybe end up slightly smoother; that kind of effort could go a long way toward building an entirely new table. Unless you're simply rolling in dough--which very few independent studios are--you can't afford to go in and rework complicated stuff just for fun.

 

[Jeff Strong]

For now, I'd be thrilled if they simply went back and toned down the flipper bounciness on Medieval and the core pack. That's only 5 tables, so it couldn't take all that long. Actually, RBION and BH aren't bad in that regard, so it would only be 3 tables (MM, TOTAN, and TOM).

 

[Metalzoic]

I don't get this. They have a separate physics engine for each table, instead of one physics engine that powers all of them?
How does that make any sense. Shouldn't it just be one so that they can continue to refine it and improve all tables with changes to one engine?

Although them saying that they will not be going back to improve older tables doesn't surprise me one bit.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I don't get this. They have a separate physics engine for each table, instead of one physics engine that powers all of them?
How does that make any sense. Shouldn't it just be one so that they can continue to refine it and improve all tables with changes to one engine?

Although them saying that they will not be going back to improve older tables doesn't surprise me one bit.

They have a global physics engine, but each table is tuned separately. In real life, each pinball machine plays differently, so the same is true on these virtual tables.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

I don't get this. They have a separate physics engine for each table, instead of one physics engine that powers all of them?
How does that make any sense. Shouldn't it just be one so that they can continue to refine it and improve all tables with changes to one engine?

There is one physics engine. But each table object has a bunch of parameters that control its physical properties (dimensions, material, elasticity, etc.) that can be individually adjusted to correct for cases where the general physics calculations yield bizarre results. You can actually see this in the "Making of TPA" video; a monitor full of code controlling the properties of a slingshot is displayed at one point.

This will probably be how the Dagger scoop kickout loop in Scared Stiff will be fixed, by adjusting the physical properties of the left Lab bumper so that the ball bounces off and downward instead of "catching" on the bumper and being shot up to the Dead Head lanes.

 

[Metalzoic]

There is one physics engine. But each table object has a bunch of parameters that control its physical properties (dimensions, material, elasticity, etc.) that can be individually adjusted to correct for cases where the general physics calculations yield bizarre results. You can actually see this in the "Making of TPA" video; a monitor full of code controlling the properties of a slingshot is displayed at one point.

This will probably be how the Dagger scoop kickout loop in Scared Stiff will be fixed, by adjusting the physical properties of the left Lab bumper so that the ball bounces off and downward instead of "catching" on the bumper and being shot up to the Dead Head lanes.

OK that makes sense then. One engine, but a ton of little adjustments that must be made. I can see how that would be a big task then. Still it would be nice if more general things (like flipper bounce, friction etc...) could be improved on the older tables.

 

[alexk3954]

Is it just me, or is the ball rolling down the flippers from a dead stop a lot more slowly on NGG (PS3 version)?

 

[Lord Boron]

I would really love them to tone down the bounciness of TOM. It's like the flippers are made of flubbed. The slightest touch and ball goes bouncing like it was hit full force (usually straight into the outlane.)

 

[Richard B]

For now, I'd be thrilled if they simply went back and toned down the flipper bounciness on Medieval and the core pack. That's only 5 tables, so it couldn't take all that long. Actually, RBION and BH aren't bad in that regard, so it would only be 3 tables (MM, TOTAN, and TOM).

Don't forget BOP, which still has the upraised flipper to outlane bounce that plagued MM and TOM (the rest of the engine is fine on Bride).
Also, based on his comment, while they won't overhaul the physics on older tables completely, they will still make adjustments to get rid of the worst problems.

 

[robx46]

Is it just me, or is the ball rolling down the flippers from a dead stop a lot more slowly on NGG (PS3 version)?

NGG is a little better on all the platforms so far, but could still be better yet. The roll is slower, but the ball still doesn't pick up speed as gradually as it should, but it sure is better than EATPM. There really must be different people tweaking physics. Not sure how else to explain this, considering that obviously ball physics don't change from table to table IRL. Btw, I should mention that this flipper thing may not just affect cradled balls. It also seems to me that just a ball flying through the inlane rolls & jumps over the flipper maybe a little easier than it should, on these tables. Also it makes the ball harder to settle down on flippers, which is an issue people have complained about since day 1. Really, just this one issue could actually spill into a lot of other details that affect flipper physics, which in turn impacts overall gameplay. So on the surface, to some this might seem like a minor complaint, it might not be so minor.

If the friction were too low, the ball would slide instead of rolling. It certainly seems to be rolling to me (will be easier to see when we get special custom balls). If you think it's too fast, then need to reduce gravity or the table pitch. I haven't bought the pro version yet, and not sure if I will (just not that interested - I also never turn tilt off). Having an option to change table pitch or gravity would probably be fun though (so long as leaderboards are turned off when anything like that changes), so hopefully that's something they can do in the future.

That isn't true. If I take the rubber off the flippers on my real pins & let go of a cradled ball, the ball will roll just the same. Where this would be an issue is when the ball has some impact on something without rubber (hitting it, not sliding along it, since it would hit but the ball spin might not be affected since there is no "grab").
Rolling might be tamed just a little with rubber on the flipper, but again I think that could be a good thing.
At first I also thought about table pitch, but I really don't think that is the issue. too much pitch might worsen the issue, but it isn't the cause I don't think. As I said earlier, I even have this issue on Big Shot (where letting go of a cradled ball his the drain faster on iOS but actually seems good on android), yet its pretty obvious that Big Shot has a pretty slow slope similar to what you see in real life. the pitch on most tables seems OK, more or less. So whatever they are doing on android, I would hope they can do the same to iOS & the consoles & pc eventually.

I agree it would be great to have difficulty settings. Some tables are just too easy for me, even without a good nudge system on iOS (no front nudging & side nudging isn't exactly easy). Tables are even easier on PS3 for me, even with some flipper lag. Same with android, pretty easy. Or just for when I've mastered a table, it would be good to play it more, with more difficulty. There are even changes you can make to the roms that adjust the rules a bit, which can be interesting. Certainly one of the main things though for difficulty would & should be adjusting table pitch. I know they likely don't want to because of leaderboards, but I don't see why they can't disable them when not playing default settings.

 

[FurVid]

That isn't true. If I take the rubber off the flippers on my real pins & let go of a cradled ball, the ball will roll just the same.

Right, but it doesn't go faster due to the reduced friction, does it? If there is enough friction for the ball to roll with slipping (and as you can see it takes very little), then the acceleration of the ball is going to be determined by the geometry - angle of flipper and pitch of table - and gravity. There's a classic physics problem of rolling without slipping on an inclined plane - you set the angular rotation to be equal to the linear acceleration divided by radius - gives a = (5/7) g sin(theta) for a solid sphere (that first constant will change depending on the moment of inertia of the roller). Or think of this - if you're driving in a car at constant speed and you go over a region with reduced friction (say a wet surface) but not so reduced that the wheels slip, your speed still stays the same, right?

 

[rivalschools]

I would just be thrilled if the flippers had the proper 'snap' like real flippers. If I could catch/lower/hit without it threatening to dump, that'd be great.