Physics engine discussion

[Snorzel]

Agreed: Many shots are way too easy (vacuum suck / railroad return to flipper), other shots are seemingly "unavailable" from cradle position. We need vastly increased resolution of flipper/ball contact points upon flip.

Re: Ball Spin. I play VP10 daily and love the community. I don't gripe about physics over there out of respect for the volunteer nature of the scene. That said, many of us feel the ball spin, while an essential part of realism, is just way too much in VP10. The ball takes lots of strange lateral archs and curveballs that only happen occasionally at really high speeds on newer real Sterns in my experience. I dial down gravity and table friction to compensate, but this introduces new undesirable effects like floatiness if it's overdone. Tough to get a balance!

I'd love to see ball spin incorporated in SPA / TPA, but at a lesser degree of intensity than the VP10 model.

Snorzel - What do you think of ball spin on Zacc?

I am not as knowledgeable on the technical aspects as many of you guys who are keeping this thread going, but for me the ball spin on Zac works pretty good but it too could use some tweaking. Early on, it seemed a ball could still be spinning even when it came to rest on a flipper. I would think that any contact with rubber features would have added friction compared to when the ball contacts just the playfield, plastic or metal surfaces. This seems to have improved but I will have to try it and pay close attention.

On the topic of ball / rubber friction, with pro pinball, I have had the ball kinda 'stick' to the flipper rather than bounce off the way I would normally expect. Its differnt than the TPA dead stop that occasionally happens but still weird imo.

Robobot has some pretty impressive physics, I wish they would put it to use on more new tables and refine it a bit.

[MENTION=2638]shaderbytes[/MENTION] Elvis Pinball has some pretty impressive physics too IMO, if you have not give it a try. Ball spin seems pretty dang good, have not played this one as much as I would like:

http://digitalpinballfans.com/showt...ike-you-have-never-seen-it-before-have-a-look


Also, Its awesome that Mike commented on the subject, I hope he or any other Farsight guys keep the dialogue going with us on this one

 

[shaderbytes]

Hi all, Just saw this thread

I love the idea of always striving to making pinball feel fun to play and for the most part to appear to react realistically. I say for the most part since all computer simulations of physics , that have to happen in real time for game engines, are approximations . So it is a case of fine tuning the approximations until they feel as believable as possible. For Me TPA ball is too floaty. That would be my biggest gripe.

For Fine tuning my table I used one Papa video as reference, I went back to the video over and over and over again and studed the ball behaviour in various circumstances and would then go to my table and tweak and tweak to get the best possible approximation.

I am using Unity engine as some others posted .. but the physics used within Unity is a 3rd party engine itself, namely "physx 3.3" created by Nvidia. Unreal engine is also using 3rd party physics. Im not sure what the licencing is to use these engines. Many other game development studios licence physics engines instead of writing them. Ever played a game and seen the "havoc" logo on the splash screens? It is yet another 3rd party physics engine

Anyway I'm keen to see how TPA new physics engine is gonna feel in the Stern Pinball App , here to hoping for the best

 

[shutyertrap]

For someone like me who doesn't understand one thing about reading code, I appreciate the breakdown into terms I can understand. I don't notice the railroading that often, other than in RBION. I get a perverse joy out of the few patterns I discovered, even while knowing they are completely manufactured.

I concur that TPA actually can make you worse at real pinball, but only in a certain sense. I have a strategy with Monster Bash in TPA, I know what to expect with a handful of shots and situations. In my league, there are at least 4 different MB machines I've played, and not a single one reacts the same to each other, let alone TPA. I have yet to post a decent score on one of these, and I firmly blame TPA because my muscle memory for the game completely screws me up for the real thing. Conversely, tables like TZ, which I play enough in TPA to know the rules but not enough to have learned a method, my scores on the real thing have greatly improved. What I'm saying is, there seems to be a tipping point for me between learning and executing game rules equaling better scores on real machines and knowing the exploitable intricacies and nuances of a TPA table that screw up your reactions and timing.

Last thing. Because FarSight isn't paying enough in licensing to WMS, Gottlieb, and Stern, plus the licensing of certain IPs, now we expect them to license game engines?

 

[shaderbytes]

... Last thing. Because FarSight isn't paying enough in licensing to WMS, Gottlieb, and Stern, plus the licensing of certain IPs, now we expect them to license game engines?

Well some others mentioned these game engines , I pointed out that those engines in fact licence physics engines. As do the majority of Game development studios. Its a case of working smart not hard. What you mention as yet another cost is in fact a saving to all these other big studios , otherwise why would they take that route? In the end it has to be a combination of convenience , costs and results. Not to say some dont roll there own , its just worth noting , putting all the cards on the table when making another move forward surely is a good thing.

 

[shutyertrap]

I agree, working smarter is much better than working harder. And were this a new game in development it would make the most sense. FarSight however has put in 10 years worth of development, going back to when they did Mojo. Am I naive to think it's a bit late for them to switch to a 3rd party physics engine? And then to pay for licensing that into a game they already pay a hefty amount of licensing? Just wondering if this hypothesis would make business sense to a small indie studio like FarSight.

 

[steven120566]

I agree, working smarter is much better than working harder. And were this a new game in development it would make the most sense. FarSight however has put in 10 years worth of development, going back to when they did Mojo. Am I naive to think it's a bit late for them to switch to a 3rd party physics engine? And then to pay for licensing that into a game they already pay a hefty amount of licensing? Just wondering if this hypothesis would make business sense to a small indie studio like FarSight.

You are not naive. If the physics they have developed thusfar and have also improved upon (3.0) were that bad... it would make sense. But if they didn't have a darned good product, it would not have been this succesful. This is not perfect, but taking TPA and outsourcing for an entirely new model, as opposed to refining the current one they in fact have developed and refined, well does not make any business sense at all unless it was truly definitevely superior. I don't think it needs no improvement mind you but I think they can do it themselves.

 

[Biff]

But if they didn't have a darned good product, it would not have been this succesful.

There is no competition. They have exclusive licenses. Those who want to play digital recreations of realistic pinball machines have to buy the product. No matter how good or bad it is.

 

[invitro]

Those who want to play digital recreations of realistic pinball machines have to buy the product. No matter how good or bad it is.

Wrong. They can play Visual Pinball. Or Future Pinball. Or Pro Pinball Timeshock. Or they can play TotAN and the monthly table for free. So, yeah. No competition at all. (And that doesn't include the older but still-working Microsoft Pinball Arcade, the other Pro Pinball games, and Farsight's Pinball Hall of Fame games.)

 

[Biff]

Wrong. They can play Visual Pinball. Or Future Pinball. Or Pro Pinball Timeshock. Or they can play TotAN and the monthly table for free. So, yeah. No competition at all. (And that doesn't include the older but still-working Microsoft Pinball Arcade, the other Pro Pinball games, and Farsight's Pinball Hall of Fame games.)

So Visual & Future pinball are available on all platforms or only on PC?
TPA is mostly successful on mobile and consoles.
They are easy to handle for casual players? On Visual Pinball the usage of all of these ROMS is legal even if you don't own the original ROMs? And Future Pinball recreations are legal because they don't use copyright protected images and audio? Right. What does Pro Pinball have to do with the recreations of real pinball machines? Oh wait they are now doing a real version of Timeshock. Good point. lol
Oh and how old is Microsofts Pinball Arcade, does it have 60+ tables? No, old abandoned software from 1998 with 7 tables. Available on Gameboy and Windows. Good competiton.

 

[invitro]

So Visual & Future pinball are available on all platforms or only on PC?
TPA is mostly successful on mobile and consoles.
They are easy to handle for casual players? The usage of all these ROMS is legal even if you don't own the original ROMs? And Future Pinball recreations are legal because they don't use copyright protected images and audio? Right. What does Pro Pinball have to do with the recreations of real pinball machines? Oh wait they are now doing a real version of Timeshock. Good point. lol
Oh and how old is Microsofts Pinball Arcade, does it have 60+ tables? No, old abandoned software from 1998 with 7 tables. Available on Gameboy and Windows. Good competiton.

You are being a jackass.

 

[Biff]

You are being a jackass.

Thank god, Obama doesn't call me a Jackass, because I like him.

 

[Naildriver74]

Thank god, Obama doesn't call me a Jackass, because I like him.

Because he'll let you use the girls bathroom?

 

[shutyertrap]

You mean you didn't see he used the sarcastic font?

They don't have the Zaccaria license, those are real tables, many people love the physics and lighting of that app. So yes, there is competition. Zen is (from what I understand) more successful on consoles than TPA, so more competition that happens to have been on consoles longer than FarSight.

Regarding the argument of if you want to play WMS, Stern, etc, then TPA is the only way to go; wrong. Visual Pinball certainly operates in a grey area of legality, one which Stern is fully aware of and that there is a gentleman's agreement as to how soon a new table can be recreated without irking them to pressing the issue. Personally I gave up on VP years and years ago because I hated the huge disparity in quality that could be found, as well as suddenly having tables not work because a new version of VP came out. I find TPA convenient and consistent and that goes a long ways for me. For those that like to tinker and fuss, VP is king.

I do gotta say that Microsoft Pinball Arcade was terrible. It actually was what made me download VP in the first place.

 

[shutyertrap]

Thank god, Obama doesn't call me a Jackass, because I like him.

You are being a jackass.

Because he'll let you use the girls bathroom?

So help me if a political flame war starts on this forum. Let's keep it civil, shall we?

 

[Naildriver74]

Yes sir

 

[Biff]

They don't have the Zaccaria license, those are real tables, many people love the physics and lighting of that app. So yes, there is competition.

Regarding the argument of if you want to play WMS, Stern, etc, then TPA is the only way to go; wrong. Visual Pinball certainly operates in a grey area of legality, one which Stern is fully aware of and that there is a gentleman's agreement as to how soon a new table can be recreated without irking them to pressing the issue.

We all know what licenses Farsight has, do I really have to point out that there is no real competition if you only want to play Williams, Gottlieb, Stern and Bally machines.
Yes, those few who know Zaccaria machines can play Zaccaria Pinball. You get my point.

On that "gentleman's agreement with Stern" ... Silverballs knows the the details
I think Stern doesn't want see recreations of machines that are currently in production or younger then 3 years.
but you still need the original ROM. Anyway there are more arguments in my previous post why visual pinball is no real competition ..

 

[Zaphod77]

The original roms are free downloads for all companies except Gottlieb. Allowed for purposes of machine repair/update.

As I said, transfer points are i believe use dto make correctiosn to the physics to make things possible.

I've repeatedly said how to cause less railroading without breaking the flipper action, but TPA refuses.

1) add a slight randomness in angle to rebounds off of standups. This would have removed the t2 exploit.
2) have slight randomness in the kickouts. not just a few discrete possibilities, but a small variation anywhere within a range.
3) even kickbacks aren't always predictable. except when they need to be (the one for HS2 should be reliable, for example)
4) rebounds off of rubber walls should also have light randomization. This fixes Scared Stiff, in making that kickout from the crate totally wild. because it sends the ball rebouding between two rubbers, it can go nearly ANYWHERE in real life.

 

[Fredrik Lundholm]

Regarding the discussion about 1/60 and "transfer points".
I agree that a higher refresh rate might improve accuracy and general game feel. Although don't forget you can increase spatial resolution today by using a higher resolution. I noticed that 1200x1920 (portrait) plays much better that 1920x1200 for example. Cs the ball has more discrete pixels to traverse and there are more possible outcomes. So unless you already play at 4k resolution in portrait mode I feel there are a lot of things you can do yourself to increase the variety already.

 

[vikingerik]

Although don't forget you can increase spatial resolution today by using a higher resolution. I noticed that 1200x1920 (portrait) plays much better that 1920x1200 for example. Cs the ball has more discrete pixels to traverse and there are more possible outcomes. So unless you already play at 4k resolution in portrait mode I feel there are a lot of things you can do yourself to increase the variety already.

This is not true at all. The ball doesn't move in screen pixels and has nothing to do with screen resolution. It moves in its own coordinate system on the playfield. The rendering system that draws it on the screen operates independently from its movement.

Proof: the same railroads we talk about work across all sorts of devices and resolutions and camera angles.

 

[mpad]

That ^