Physics

[Sean DonCarlos]

& Gorgar

Thank you; I knew I left one out. I guess I should be happy I have so many tables (on iOS at least) that I'm starting to lose track of them all.

 

[netizen]

Theatre of Magic is fully emulated.

My bad. TOM's behaviour could have convinced me otherwise.

 

[brakel]

My bad. TOM's behaviour could have convinced me otherwise.

Scripting vs emulation has no effect on physics.

 

[chemmerling]

I have to agree with Sumez. I don't know anything about programming, but I've played a lot of Star Trek and I've never noticed anything even remotely close to what you're describing, chemmerling. I've noticed sometimes it seems like different camera angles give the game a little different 'feel,' and it might take a few minutes to learn where to hit the ball on the flippers to make the shots you're already accustomed to hitting on another camera angle, but I definitely wouldn't say that it feels like the physics have actually been changed.

Perhaps we're not understanding exactly what you mean. Can you provide any more clarification? (I've read your bug report also and I'm still not sure what you mean.)

I will try to put together a test plan and some reproductions steps to show what I'm talking about, but I'm starting to wonder if I, myself, misinterpreted whats going on.

I'm starting to think that its not physics that are changing, but the angle of certain 3D models.

 

[FredFire]

I have one "major" complaint with PBA, physics. [...] That said the physics in PBA are nothing close to resembling reality.

I couldn´t agree more - the physics engine of the Android app/tables is far from being realistic, and by far the worst of all pinball simulations I´ve played.

One thing that constatly makes me cringe is when the ball comes down one of the side lanes with VERY LOW speed and "clawls up" the paddle slowly, completely defying the laws of gravity and slowly continuing to go up the raised paddle straight into the center "out" whole ... wtf? Also, it seems to me tha ball is simply too big compared to the playfield, and bounces around sometimes like a rubber ball... also, M yimpression is that the general horizontal tilt of the play area is in no way emulated, the ball always goes "straight" ... it´s hard to describe.

I also play Z*n Pinb*ll HD (am I allowed to say the name here?) on my nexus 7 and ball physics are much better there.

But as far as tables are concerned, I love the "real" PBA tables much more...

Fred

 

[Carl Spiby]

TPA's physics aren't a million miles away, and to say Zen's are better is just a complete insult.

 

[night]

I also play Z*n Pinb*ll HD (am I allowed to say the name here?) on my nexus 7 and ball physics are much better there.

Are you serious? Zen physics don't even come close to TPA quality.. especially the last few tables are very good.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

The physics is still evolving on a table-by-table basis. Medieval Madness used to be one of the most insanely floaty tables (and still is on XBox, where it hasn't gotten an update in ages), but the Android version has been greatly improved, and this isn't the case any more. Creature from the Black Lagoon initially erred in the opposite direction; the flippers were so dead that you could catch a ball on a held flipper if it was just speeding down that side's inlane, but that's been fixed too.

There's still no spin, as far as I know, but gravity definitely exists; I've lost lots of balls to the center drain on Firepower because they blooped into there on a curving trajectory after a weak flip. I think the weakest thing is still just the flipper mechanics, which is extremely hard to get right. On the recent tables, you can do post passes and even the occasional cradle separation, but I don't think they've quite got the real effect of, say, momentarily releasing a held flipper for a split second so that it gives a little kick to a ball that is crawling up to the end of the flipper.

I can't speak to Zen's physics since I haven't played with them much.

 

[FredFire]

Thanks Matt for your kind response. Maybe I´ll give some of the newer tables a try. I was put off by the physics of the tables i tried, and was not aware that the simulation quality can vary between tables, my guess was that the physics engine was identical for all tables.

 

[superballs]

TPA's physics aren't a million miles away, and to say Zen's are better is just a complete insult.

Are you serious? Zen physics don't even come close to TPA quality.. especially the last few tables are very good.

That's not entirely fair. There are a few things that Zen's physics engine handle quite nicely and their flipper mechanics are top notch.

Drop passes are (a little too) easy to do and post passes have that same touchiness as on a real table, too quick and you just give the ball a little jump and it doesn't go anywhere, too slow and it goes insane. It also has a much better "snap" off the flippers like on a real table.

Put it this way...with real pinball physics being in the center. Zen kind of goes in one direction while TPA goes in the opposite direction...they both manange to just miss certain aspects of real physics but seem miles apart from one another. Also...both are very different flavours of pinball.

Thanks Matt for your kind response. Maybe I´ll give some of the newer tables a try. I was put off by the physics of the tables i tried, and was not aware that the simulation quality can vary between tables, my guess was that the physics engine was identical for all tables.

All the tables do use the same physics engine, but each table has things tuned differently. This way they can make the table play as closely as they can to the table they have in their studio.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

All the tables do use the same physics engine, but each table has things tuned differently. This way they can make the table play as closely as they can to the table they have in their studio.

Right... Specifically, they seem to do a lot of hand-tweaking of the ball-flipper interaction, which is where most of the complaints about the older tables lie. It's getting better and better, though.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

While I haven't played with Zen's ball physics much, my impression is that they have a reputation for making the ball seem very heavy, with powerful gravity relative to the amount of energy imparted by the flippers. Someone who was used to that might be put off by the "lighter" ball in TPA's world.

In my experience the TPA take on this pretty consistent with actual pinball, with one large exception: TPA's simulated plungers seem unrealistically powerful, with the skill shot in Funhouse being just the most obvious example. (It's been pointed out to me that plunger springs vary a lot between real-world tables; it could just be that the real Funhouses I've played have worn-out springs from advanced age...)

 

[Tabe]

While I haven't played with Zen's ball physics much, my impression is that they have a reputation for making the ball seem very heavy, with powerful gravity relative to the amount of energy imparted by the flippers. Someone who was used to that might be put off by the "lighter" ball in TPA's world.

In Zen (not Zen 2), on the first tables especially, the ball felt like a boulder. It would barely bounce, you could flip it hard at something and it would reverse direction from gravity/weight, etc.

In Zen 2, that's been addressed. The ball is still too heavy to some degree in that it's still REALLY easy to catch it. The ball movement in general, however, feels pretty good.

And the flipper action in Zen is a lot better than TPA's.

In my experience the TPA take on this pretty consistent with actual pinball, with one large exception: TPA's simulated plungers seem unrealistically powerful, with the skill shot in Funhouse being just the most obvious example. (It's been pointed out to me that plunger springs vary a lot between real-world tables; it could just be that the real Funhouses I've played have worn-out springs from advanced age...)

My beef with the plungers isn't that they're too powerful, it's that they're not consistent. Pull the plunger back to 9 and the ball rockets out. Pull it back to 10 and it goes nowhere. Then next time, pull it to 9 and it goes nowhere. There's plenty of times where I've felt like it was almost random.

Tabe

 

[Richard B]

& Gorgar

Basically any table made on or before 1985 will be scripted. So far, anything that comes after will be emulated. Gottliebs might be an exception, should they decide to tackle any post-85 tables.

 

[Lord Boron]

A while back there was a a bug in TPA on PS3 that caused the game to slow down running at 1080. When it happened to me the very first thing that wint through my head was " wow, it's like I'm playing Zen". Sorry, but Zens physics suck.

 

[FredFire]

Keep in mind that we´re in the Android section of this forum ... I was only talking about the ANDROID version of TPA vs. Zen HD, i don´t know if it´s useful to mix the different versions since the physics engines of zen2 or TPA on PS3 or XBOX might not be fairly comparable... just a thought.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Keep in mind that we´re in the Android section of this forum ... I was only talking about the ANDROID version of TPA vs. Zen HD, i don´t know if it´s useful to mix the different versions since the physics engines of zen2 or TPA on PS3 or XBOX might not be fairly comparable... just a thought.

As far as I know, the general physics engine is the same across all versions.

 

[smooverr]

As far as I know, the general physics engine is the same across all versions.

Nope. I have it on 360, PS3, and iOS, wildly different on all.

 

[superballs]

In Zen (not Zen 2), on the first tables especially, the ball felt like a boulder. It would barely bounce, you could flip it hard at something and it would reverse direction from gravity/weight, etc.

In Zen 2, that's been addressed. The ball is still too heavy to some degree in that it's still REALLY easy to catch it. The ball movement in general, however, feels pretty good.

And the flipper action in Zen is a lot better than TPA's.


My beef with the plungers isn't that they're too powerful, it's that they're not consistent. Pull the plunger back to 9 and the ball rockets out. Pull it back to 10 and it goes nowhere. Then next time, pull it to 9 and it goes nowhere. There's plenty of times where I've felt like it was almost random.

Tabe

It actually makes a difference depending on how long you hold the plunger back. Of you flick it down and let go at a specific point, you will get a more powerful plunge then if you pull ot back and hold it at that point for a second

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Nope. I have it on 360, PS3, and iOS, wildly different on all.

Please explain further, as I have TPA on 360 and iOS. Some of the tables now play differently because the iOS version has received updates and the 360 hasn't had updates in an eternity, but in terms of general physics they should play the same.