ROM emulation, why is it so important?

[Kevlar]

No EM's in the foreseeable future then? Well that (luckily, em's...meh) lays to rest some rumours about upcoming tables.

I have no interest in EM's myself, I just don't see what the attraction is. I would rather see Farsight work forward in time than backwards. While we are having a discussion about emulating the machines what are the limitations of your (FS) current tech? Guess what I'm asking is can it handle the newest tables like tron, transformers, acdc etc? if not what is the newest table that could be possible, technically speaking of course

 

[Brian Clark]

I have no interest in EM's myself, I just don't see what the attraction is. I would rather see Farsight work forward in time than backwards.

I rather see a variety myself. I would hate for Farsight to give up on EMs becuase of some negative comments. The attraction is from the simple rules and challenging gameplay, and reviews and info in ipdb should give you an idea of why people like them. Not all EMs are alike, and it's extremely disappointing to hear a blanket statement lumping them all together. I don't agree that they should only do newer games. There are many older games that are very unique and just as much fun to play as newer ones. Not to mention that games that came out years prior like White Water and Cirqus Voltaire are more fun than many Sterns (though I like newer Sterns, as well).

Personally though, I'm disappointed with the lack of focus on EMs. I know they are in the plans, but the lone EM in the Williams collection was a very mediocore game and better one that was planned was given the shaft. While Firepower (the SS that replaced Space Mission) was still a good choice, Space Mission would have been a much better EM than Jive Time.

 

[Kevlar]

'I would hate for Farsight to give up on EMs becuase of some negative comments': ' and it's extremely disappointing to hear a blanket statement lumping them all together '

Woh there, slow down, I made no comments about the quality of any EM tables or people's right to like them, I just said I have no interest in them myself.

 

[Brian Clark]

Woh there, slow down, I made no comments about the quality of any EM tables or people's right to like them, I just said I have no interest in them myself.

sorry, I misread. I was referring to posts by others (including a couple facebook posts), as well, though. Anyway, I'm also wondering what the limitations of the current tech are.

 

[Fuseball]

The more I play Gorgar, the more I feel that emulation is absolutely essential for all solid state games. Even a game as relatively simple as Gorgar is scripted differently to the actual rom. The basic rules are probably right (or at least close), but the sound and lighting are way out - no attract mode lighting, incorrect sound on increasing multiplier, 'Gor' and 'Gar' lit constantly, missing speech, random GI flashing at the back etc.

Similar inaccuracies plagued the PHOF versions of Black Knight and Firepower too. It seems a shame to have modelled the physical side of these games so well only to have the game's accuracy docked a few points for flaws in the scripting, when emulation would solve all those problems instantly.

VP/PinMAME had these Williams systems emulated a long time ago courtesy of Steve Ellenoff's excellent work, so I would hope that you have the rights to use that emulation code or a variant of it in TPA. I completely understand that it would require a bit of a rework of those tables but I think the time spent would be well worth it, particularly in the longer term when you are building tables that were not part of either previously released Williams or Gottlieb collection.

I hope I don't come across as being too negative or critical. I genuinely love playing TPA and I think you've done an amazing job at modelling all the tables. I even think the scripting is very good and you've put a lot of effort into making them play correctly. However, I believe that emulation (if you have the option) is the only way to go in preserving these great games and keeping them as accurate and enjoyable as possible.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I agree. It would definitely be ideal to have these early SS games emulated as well.

 

[SpiffyRob]

The non-emulation of older tables is my biggest disappointment about TPA thus far. The delays and the bugs can be attributed to FarSight's limited resources and wildly ambitious goals, and are things that I think will definitely be sorted out in time, but not emulating these tables was a conscious decision that seems to go directly against FarSight's stated mission of preserving pinball history.

While I'll grant that it's possible that they would revisit Black Hole and Gorgar to emulate them, I'd assuming this won't happen, as the majority of TPA players would be more concerned with new tables, and wouldn't even notice the considerable amount of work that would need to go in to revisiting these tables.

 

[Matt McIrvin]

Not sure how we are going to do EM tables. Most likely I would need to see how a few of them worked to see if there is a common way of handling it. On the other hand EM tables are usually not that complicated so scripting would also work.

When we get to the point of doing those, then I'll have to figure out a solution.

Farsight already did EM tables, presumably with scripting, for Pinball Hall of Fame (especially the Gottlieb collection). I'd assumed that the scripted early solid-state tables in PA were all PHoF repeats that were just using the PHoF scripting, or something derived from it.

It's conceivable that one could "emulate" an EM table on a component-by-component level using circuit-simulation code, but that would probably be overkill, especially since in most cases the circuit is just implementing on/off logic.

 

[Fuseball]

I agree. It's pretty much my only disappointment about TPA.

I would even offer to help setup/script those tables for emulation based on my experience creating VP/PinMAME versions and repairing/restoring a number of that era of games, should they need extra resource to make the emulation of early SS tables a reality. It really shouldn't be any more difficult than scripting the DMD games to work with emulation.

If anyone from FS would like to contact me, I'm serious about wanting to help get this working. I want Black Knight to be *perfect*.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Are these ROMs [Gorgar's and Black Hole's] of a different type, maybe one that has been found to be fundamentally incompatible with how TPA's emulator works? I could understand that, since these machines are 30+ years old and computing architecture was very very different back then.

That is exactly correct and I actually forgot to mention that in the earlier post, so I apologize for that. Thats what it basically comes down to is our emulation guy cannot format or make the older systems compatible with his/ our emulation. I think this will be a fix maybe sometime in the future where it will be possible, I could be wrong but it is possible.

Here's the answer from FarSight as to why Gorgar and Black Hole are scripted instead of emulated. Presumably the emulation framework could be updated to add support for older SS tables, but FarSight may be focusing on other areas at the moment. (Also, messing with the framework is risky business - any bugs introduced in the emulator could potentially break ALL tables, not just the older ones.)

 

[Sinistar]

Ok so Im a new guy here , and from reading this , I learned they are using programming from the original tables in the game "ROMS" , which then has to be "fooled' into thinking it's still being used without the actual hardware and mechanics present. Which is causing more than average CPU work , which makes the game a tightrope walk of complexity. So this makes for a amazing simulation (as we can tell) but also makes certain additions into the game over-tax the game console's hardware computations and has the potential to act up in undesired ways. Which is one reason the game is so "pure" and does not try to "add" to the original tables , beyond some very simple options. Very interesting.....

 

[Fuseball]

That's interesting. Sounds like the emulation is significantly different to that of PinMAME then. I had assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they were based on the same code. I wonder if the mid-late '80s games have the same problem? Getting the scripting right for those System 11 games will potentially be a lot harder than the simpler rulesets of the early '80s SS games.

Bit of a shame as that makes the scripted tables little better, albeit differently compromised, than the VP/PinMAME versions when they could have been near-perfect.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

Ok so Im a new guy here , and from reading this , I learned they are using programming from the original tables in the game "ROMS" , which then has to be "fooled' into thinking it's still being used without the actual hardware and mechanics present. Which is causing more than average CPU work , which makes the game a tightrope walk of complexity. So this makes for a amazing simulation (as we can tell) but also makes certain additions into the game over-tax the game console's hardware computations and has the potential to act up in undesired ways. Which is one reason the game is so "pure" and does not try to "add" to the original tables , beyond some very simple options. Very interesting.....

Actually, FarSight commented once that TPA on the 360 uses only about 25% of one CPU core. (I'm guessing it'll use more once the advanced lighting is implemented.) It's the mobile devices, mostly lower-end phones and tablets, that have difficulty handling the emulation engine's requirements.

 

[Fuseball]

Actually, FarSight commented once that TPA on the 360 uses only about 25% of one CPU core. (I'm guessing it'll use more once the advanced lighting is implemented.) It's the mobile devices, mostly lower-end phones and tablets, that have difficulty handling the emulation engine's requirements.

Traditionally it's the sound emulation that's the real CPU-hog. The main game code is normally very tightly optimised to run on some pretty slow processors by modern standards, even via emulation.

 

[Dutch Pinball ball]

For me personal i hope they try to makas many ''new era'' tables. Cause the old ones are not for me anymore. To me time wrecked those old babys, i find them boring.

But more important, the old ones you can play with other games, phof, or mame.

Focus on tables we never saw simulated properly, and on the real new ones, like ac/dc.

Just my opinion.

 

[Brian Clark]

I hope the ROM emulation for older tables does get sorted out, but the answer from Farsight is very disappointing in reguards to both this and the operator settings. I understand they are a small company and this is tricky stuff, but developers should be equipped to handle tricky stuff. They really need to step up their game when it comes to bug testing.

Personally, I would like both older and newer tables for the variety. I disagree that they should stay with only the newest since many older tables have very different rule sets from newer tables. Also, while some Sterns are exteremly good, others are just average. Personally, I feel they should get the ROM emulation sorted out before making older tables, even if it is risky, espeically with the confusion over Black Hole's ruleset (it was inaccurate, made more accurate, and is inaccurate again).

While you can play older tables with VP and FP, Pinball Arcade has advantages over both. Also, some of those other games like Microsoft Pinball Arcade don't have the best physics for some tables (tried the demo with Haunted House and the physics are definiltely off). Pinball Arcade is trying for accurate tables, so that is what I want to see, older or newer. I'm not saying that Farsight shouldn't focus mainly on newer/more popular tables, but I feel they do need to put more focus on older tables if they want to get them right.

 

[Richard B]

It is disappointing that a freeware hobbyist program can create better emulation than a professional company. If this is true, FS should only work on tables with systems that they can currently emulate, and hold off on the rest until they perfect their emulation for these older systems. Inaccuracies like these will kill an already niche market.

 

[RetroDude]

That's interesting. Sounds like the emulation is significantly different to that of PinMAME then. I had assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they were based on the same code. I wonder if the mid-late '80s games have the same problem? Getting the scripting right for those System 11 games will potentially be a lot harder than the simpler rulesets of the early '80s SS games.

Bit of a shame as that makes the scripted tables little better, albeit differently compromised, than the VP/PinMAME versions when they could have been near-perfect.

Yes, but PinMAME runs only on one platform with one basic CPU architecture for the emulation.
That's far from the case with TPA.

I suppose if FarSight chose to develop TPA for only one platform (and a powerful one at that as compared to phones and tablets) things could have been a bit different.

 

[RetroDude]

It is disappointing that a freeware hobbyist program can create better emulation than a professional company. If this is true, FS should only work on tables with systems that they can currently emulate, and hold off on the rest until they perfect their emulation for these older systems. Inaccuracies like these will kill an already niche market.

see my response above.
One single known platform, with effectively zero budget requirements and unlimited number of developers.

Not the same thing in the slightest.

 

[Mike Reitmeyer]

Steve Ellenoff has been working on Williams System 11 emulation, once that is working he should be able to get System 3 to 11 working as far as I know. Then we can modify Gorgar to use full System 6 emulation.