Round 4: Q&A With Bobby King: Answers

[Matt McIrvin]

You got one. Isn't that enough?

Bah. I'd love to see Royal Flush, and now that I've seen video of Fireball, I want Fireball. (Both of those were actually remade as SS games, come to think of it, though the SS version of Fireball omitted one of its most distinctive features, the zipper flippers; I'd want to see the EM versions.)

 

[Richard B]

Bah. I'd love to see Royal Flush, and now that I've seen video of Fireball, I want Fireball. (Both of those were actually remade as SS games, come to think of it, though the SS version of Fireball omitted one of its most distinctive features, the zipper flippers; I'd want to see the EM versions.)

I checked out Fireball on Youtube. It certainly does look interesting - it has many features that would be implemented in later tables, such as the captive ball and the spinning disc (I thought WW introduced that!). The zipper flippers are interesting, and make the game play a lot like BH, in which you want to hit certain targets while avoiding others. The SS version removes this, using standard flippers instead, making the EM version superior.
One good thing with EMs is you don't have to worry about ROM emulation.

 

[Kolchak357]

I'm up for Fireball as well, but I think it's a Bally and they were looking for a Stern or Gottlieb.

 

[spoonman]

Great info. Thanks to Jeff for setting this up and following through with it.

Is it me or do these answers just make you hungry for more answers?
It's never enough info for the pinball nut!

My question for the next round.. Can we possibly ask 10 questions?

 

[Jeff Strong]

Great info. Thanks to Jeff for setting this up and following through with it.

Is it me or do these answers just make you hungry for more answers?
It's never enough info for the pinball nut!

My question for the next round.. Can we possibly ask 10 questions?

I thought about that as well, but then it might take Bobby twice as long to answer.

Looks like we'll be needing to put up a poll for the EM vs. Modern unlicensed question. I'll start a new thread for that.

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

Other posts suggested confusion over EMs (EM tables were mentioned one time after a question about Black Hole and Gorgar in regards to emulation, despite neither being EMs). I feel preventing confusion over EMs will get us full emulation of older tables faster. According to ipdb, Stern was mostly SS, with only 4 EMs (3 if you count that 2 of the tables are variations of the same table). "Stern EM or Gottlieb EM" is awkward wording. He said "stern or gottelib EMs", with no mention of SS.

My first reaction was that Bobby was thinking about early Stern SS tables versus classic Gottlieb EMs, but his wording could easily be taken as both being EMs. I tend to agree that actual Stern EM selection would be pretty worthless. Rawhide/Stampede may have some limited historical value (mostly because of their transition from Chicago Coin to Stern manufacturing after the late '76 buyout), but I doubt FarSight would even be able to get their hands on a physical Pinball or Disco EM (the other two actual EMs), as their production runs never even broke a thousand.

In all likelihood, we would see a few classic Gottlieb EMs like Royal Flush, Fast Draw, Slick Chick, Abra Ca Dabra, Jungle Queen, or Centigrade 37 matched up against Old Sterns like Flight 2000, Seawitch, Catacomb, Big Game, or Star Gazer. I agree with crazyflipperfingers that this kind of vote would be more meaningful than just deciding on which predetermined non-licensed tables hit first. Hopefully, FarSight won't burn the poll on EMs we already expect like Central Park or Ace High, and I'd rather see El Dorado City of Gold from PHoF than its EM predecessor (unless they get Canada Dry licensing... heh). In any case, I would probably vote for one of the Old Sterns (Catacomb vs. Seawitch vs. Flight 2000 would be a tough choice), since I think the seemingly inevitable PHoF updates would put us at Gottlieb EM capacity. Big Shot's among their best, and we're already getting it this month.

As I stated in my Ultimate 100 thread, I'd be fine if FS stuck to a 1966-2005 timeframe for all TPA tables, so in my mind, PHoF Gottlieb's Central Park (1966) should be as far back as FS reaches for the TPA library. Historical stuff from 1931-1965 may be fine for a Gottlieb-focused Hall of Fame game, but TPA seems like it's more focused on pinball's golden age, ya know? And before anyone asks, the only reason I cut the timeline at 2005 was because everything afterward seems too problematic with licensing and/or emulation... I'd just as soon forget about 'em and focus on true classics.

 

[Brian Clark]

As I stated in my Ultimate 100 thread, I'd be fine if FS stuck to a 1966-2005 timeframe for all TPA tables, so in my mind, PHoF Gottlieb's Central Park (1966) should be as far back as FS reaches for the TPA library. Historical stuff from 1931-1965 may be fine for a Gottlieb-focused Hall of Fame game, but TPA seems like it's more focused on pinball's golden age, ya know? And before anyone asks, the only reason I cut the timeline at 2005 was because everything afterward seems too problematic with licensing and/or emulation... I'd just as soon forget about 'em and focus on true classics.

I disagree here since that would leave out some good pre-1966 pins like Slick Chick, 1953 Grand Slam, and Queen of Hearts that are definitely good from more than just a historical perspective.

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

I disagree here since that would leave out some good pre-1966 pins like Slick Chick, 1953 Grand Slam, and Queen of Hearts that are definitely good from more than just a historical perspective.

While I agree that all the tables you mentioned are great, I'd be willing to see them sacrificed for a more consistent product in TPA. They simply don't possess the marketability that drives TPA sales. They appeal to more hardcore pinheads like you and me, but casual players and mainstream consumers would totally ignore them. We also don't need everything pre-'66 to become a Gottliebfest. We already had Microsoft Pinball Arcade for that back in 1998 (which is still pretty good compared to VP's alternative standards).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Pinball_Arcade

If FarSight felt compelled to include pre-'66 tables, I think they should gradually work on them as time permits, never taking away from the two featured tables that are being released each month. All of those machines would need to be scripted, and I don't think expectations would require them to purchase the physical table or go through all of the usual meticulous steps. But that also means they wouldn't cost much to create, and perhaps they could be included as unlockable bonus content, distributed for free inside of a later update. They could be kept bare-bones, with no flyers or other extras, and maybe they could be playable in a special Timeline Challenge mode or accessed in a Bonus Gallery once wizard goals have been reached on the featured tables. It may sound ridiculous to say FarSight should not only work on such tables IN ADDITION to the 2-per-month we've been getting but also to give them away for FREE, but in all honesty, that may be the most compelling way to include them. They would incentivize the overall product, add new objectives/reasons to play, and expand the historical value of the project. I think these would be particularly cool:

Baffle Ball [Gottlieb 1931]
Ballyhoo [Bally 1934]
Humpty Dumpty [Gottlieb 1947]
Ace High [Gottlieb 1957] *PHoF update*
Serenade [Williams 1960]
Metro [Williams 1961]
Slick Chick [Gottlieb 1963]

There are others, of course, like Knock Out, Trade Winds, and the ones you *Brian* mentioned.

Similarly, if FS pursues original tables or the proposed "sequel" machines with no physical representations like TPA's current selection, even those should be kept separate in a special Concepts mode or something to that effect. I'd still rather see FS focus on golden age machines and 99% accurate digital reproductions instead of originals or anything older than '66, but if the user could sort them out through menu selection and they didn't take away from the 2-table/mo pace, even I would get on board.

Not trying to be a stubborn pinball snob. I'd just like to see TPA remain a pure collection of golden age classics while still maintaining strong marketability.

 

[Fuseball]

I find the fun in paying EM tables is in mastering the precise physics and nudge timing - neither of which is TPA's forte at the moment. You get a higher percentage of the arcade experience in TPA on later games due to a larger amount of the gameplay (rules, DMD interaction, sound) being digital in nature. Even the shots are more predictable, what with ramps and rails shepherding and modulating the ball's path far more than open EM designs. Whilst going further back into pinball's past is interesting from a historical viewpoint, I just don't think it plays to TPA's strengths.

 

[Heretic]

Im bemused that i enjoy tables made before i was born tbh, my most played is blackhole gorgar elvira etc rate there too

 

[SilverBalls]

While I agree that all the tables you mentioned are great, I'd be willing to see them sacrificed for a more consistent product in TPA. They simply don't possess the marketability that drives TPA sales. They appeal to more hardcore pinheads like you and me, but casual players and mainstream consumers would totally ignore them. We also don't need everything pre-'66 to become a Gottliebfest. We already had Microsoft Pinball Arcade for that back in 1998 (which is still pretty good compared to VP's alternative standards).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Pinball_Arcade

If FarSight felt compelled to include pre-'66 tables, I think they should gradually work on them as time permits, never taking away from the two featured tables that are being released each month. All of those machines would need to be scripted, and I don't think expectations would require them to purchase the physical table or go through all of the usual meticulous steps. But that also means they wouldn't cost much to create, and perhaps they could be included as unlockable bonus content, distributed for free inside of a later update. They could be kept bare-bones, with no flyers or other extras, and maybe they could be playable in a special Timeline Challenge mode or accessed in a Bonus Gallery once wizard goals have been reached on the featured tables. It may sound ridiculous to say FarSight should not only work on such tables IN ADDITION to the 2-per-month we've been getting but also to give them away for FREE, but in all honesty, that may be the most compelling way to include them. They would incentivize the overall product, add new objectives/reasons to play, and expand the historical value of the project. I think these would be particularly cool:

Baffle Ball [Gottlieb 1931]
Ballyhoo [Bally 1934]
Humpty Dumpty [Gottlieb 1947]
Ace High [Gottlieb 1957] *PHoF update*
Serenade [Williams 1960]
Metro [Williams 1961]
Slick Chick [Gottlieb 1963]

There are others, of course, like Knock Out, Trade Winds, and the ones you *Brian* mentioned.

Similarly, if FS pursues original tables or the proposed "sequel" machines with no physical representations like TPA's current selection, even those should be kept separate in a special Concepts mode or something to that effect. I'd still rather see FS focus on golden age machines and 99% accurate digital reproductions instead of originals or anything older than '66, but if the user could sort them out through menu selection and they didn't take away from the 2-table/mo pace, even I would get on board.

Not trying to be a stubborn pinball snob. I'd just like to see TPA remain a pure collection of golden age classics while still maintaining strong marketability.

Some good points there, but I have to say that the VP EM creations are of an incredibly high standard and MS pinball arcade is no comparison. Here is a screenshot of a 2 screen version of Four Million BC. The second screen has fully working EM reels, and the graphics are full HD. I really hope Farsight can over the next few years build many of these gems, but in the meanime don't write off VP - there is some hugely impressive work out there done by true pinball fanatics.

http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?a...ection=screenshot&record=11096&id=6071&full=1

 

[SilverBalls]

VPs Fireball.......
http://www.vpforums.org/uploads/dsfiles/img-13011-1328525371.jpg

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

Some good points there, but I have to say that the VP EM creations are of an incredibly high standard and MS pinball arcade is no comparison. Here is a screenshot of a 2 screen version of Four Million BC. The second screen has fully working EM reels, and the graphics are full HD. I really hope Farsight can over the next few years build many of these gems, but in the meanime don't write off VP - there is some hugely impressive work out there done by true pinball fanatics.

http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?a...ay§ion=screenshot&record=11096&id=6071&full=1

I enjoy playing some of those higher-quality EMs in VP8/9, but nothing about them looks drastically better than what Microsoft put out. And considering there are 5 awful recreations for every good one, the average VP tables don't consistently look as good as MPA.

http://www.microsoft.com/games/pinball/screenshots/hhouse_800600.jpg
http://assets2.ignimgs.com/1999/02/11/mspinball006-101142.jpg
http://static.sgcdn.net/cache/85560/image/79.jpg
http://www.mobygames.com/images/sho...ll-arcade-windows-screenshot-slick-chicks.jpg
http://www.microsoft.com/games/pinball/screenshots/cueball_600450.jpg

Of course, all of the MPA tables are prerendered, but I think they hold up just fine. Only the menu looks terrible by today's standards. I'm not knocking the hard work that VP creators have put into its finer releases. It was more of a comparison on classic EMs that are playable in a digital format and that MPA still serves as a good Gottlieb (+1 Mirco) collection. On that front, MPA is the only retail competition, but it's also 14 years old.

 

[SilverBalls]

I enjoy playing some of those higher-quality EMs in VP8/9, but nothing about them looks drastically better than what Microsoft put out. And considering there are 5 awful recreations for every good one, the average VP tables don't consistently look as good as MPA.

http://www.microsoft.com/games/pinball/screenshots/hhouse_800600.jpg
http://assets2.ignimgs.com/1999/02/11/mspinball006-101142.jpg
http://static.sgcdn.net/cache/85560/image/79.jpg
http://www.mobygames.com/images/sho...ll-arcade-windows-screenshot-slick-chicks.jpg
http://www.microsoft.com/games/pinball/screenshots/cueball_600450.jpg

Of course, all of the MPA tables are prerendered, but I think they hold up just fine. Only the menu looks terrible by today's standards.

Seriously the MS stuff was good in its day like the older VP stuff but the resolution is far too low by today's standard, and the MPA ball physics are apalling. The VP resolution now is full HD, and when seen in a 42inch cabinet you will realise it. In the last 2 years the VP EMs have come on in leaps and bounds with regular first class contributions by pinuck, starman and rosve. I haven't seen a bad one in a long time.

I love pinball and I really don't want folks on here to miss up on some top notch stuff based on comments we see here from time to time about VP. My advice is for people to check them out for themselves.

Edit: anyway it's always good to see another EM fan here so let's hope we get to see some more in PA.

 

[JoshuaKadmon]

Seriously the MS stuff was good in its day like the older VP stuff but the resolution is far too low by today's standard, and the MPA ball physics are apalling. The VP resolution now is full HD, and when seen in a 42inch cabinet you will realise it. In the last 2 years the VP EMs have come on in leaps and bounds with regular first class contributions by pinuck, starman and rosve. I haven't seen a bad one in a long time.

I love pinball and I really don't want folks on here to miss up on some top notch stuff based on comments we see here from time to time about VP. My advice is for people to check them out for themselves.

I doubt my opinion would sway any serious pinball fans from checking out free recreations of their favorite tables... honestly. Like I said, I'm not comparing cabinet releases, and I am not trying to take away from the good stuff that gets released for VP. JPSalas and Starman are especially talented. I'm just stating that MPA is pretty good for how old it is, and as the only other RETAIL collection of historic tables, that's worth noting.

Back on topic, I hope that EMs are represented in a limited but respectable fashion in TPA, and I would prefer to vote on those instead of picking which SS tables that FarSight has pre-selected will get released first.

 

[SilverBalls]

Back on topic, I hope that EMs are represented in a limited but respectable fashion in TPA, and I would prefer to vote on those instead of picking which SS tables that FarSight has pre-selected will get released first.

Sounds good to me

 

[Brian Clark]

While I agree that all the tables you mentioned are great, I'd be willing to see them sacrificed for a more consistent product in TPA. They simply don't possess the marketability that drives TPA sales. They appeal to more hardcore pinheads like you and me, but casual players and mainstream consumers would totally ignore them. We also don't need everything pre-'66 to become a Gottliebfest. We already had Microsoft Pinball Arcade for that back in 1998 (which is still pretty good compared to VP's alternative standards).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Pinball_Arcade

If FarSight felt compelled to include pre-'66 tables, I think they should gradually work on them as time permits, never taking away from the two featured tables that are being released each month. All of those machines would need to be scripted, and I don't think expectations would require them to purchase the physical table or go through all of the usual meticulous steps. But that also means they wouldn't cost much to create, and perhaps they could be included as unlockable bonus content, distributed for free inside of a later update. They could be kept bare-bones, with no flyers or other extras, and maybe they could be playable in a special Timeline Challenge mode or accessed in a Bonus Gallery once wizard goals have been reached on the featured tables. It may sound ridiculous to say FarSight should not only work on such tables IN ADDITION to the 2-per-month we've been getting but also to give them away for FREE, but in all honesty, that may be the most compelling way to include them. They would incentivize the overall product, add new objectives/reasons to play, and expand the historical value of the project. I think these would be particularly cool:

Baffle Ball [Gottlieb 1931]
Ballyhoo [Bally 1934]
Humpty Dumpty [Gottlieb 1947]
Ace High [Gottlieb 1957] *PHoF update*
Serenade [Williams 1960]
Metro [Williams 1961]
Slick Chick [Gottlieb 1963]

There are others, of course, like Knock Out, Trade Winds, and the ones you *Brian* mentioned.

Similarly, if FS pursues original tables or the proposed "sequel" machines with no physical representations like TPA's current selection, even those should be kept separate in a special Concepts mode or something to that effect. I'd still rather see FS focus on golden age machines and 99% accurate digital reproductions instead of originals or anything older than '66, but if the user could sort them out through menu selection and they didn't take away from the 2-table/mo pace, even I would get on board.

Not trying to be a stubborn pinball snob. I'd just like to see TPA remain a pure collection of golden age classics while still maintaining strong marketability.

Golden Age comics are from the 40s, so I find it odd that 90s is labeled as "golden age", especially since it wasn't the only era when pinball was thriving. I don't like being told about sales repeatedly. It's a kick in the pants since I know sales are important, but, at the same time, not giving the games proper treatment means quality recreations of those games won't be available legally. I know it's a catch 22, but I feel that there should be tables to appeal to all crowds and I feel the "hardcore" crowd shouldn't be left in the dust. I also feel the quailty on all tables should be as good as possible and that more innaccuracies on the level of the first iOS versions of Black Knight won't help the tables sell.

I also feel Farsight needs to sort more things out. They are the company with the license and have done a good job with pinball, but lack in areas like bug testing and have an iffy track record, even counting recent games. I don't want to see ANY EM recreations without the the real table since Black Hole was very off when it first came to Pinball Arcade. However, even with the real table, too many games have an issues with inaccurate gaps. Some have been fixed, but Black Hole is worse gap wise with the latest iOS version. iOS's touch nudge finally works right, but shake and swipe still don't. Tilt has been buggy since day 1 on iOS.