So why is there no memory save in TPA?

[Sean]

Yeah I know, but they did say they had submitted it to Nintendo for review didn't they? Or is that wishful thinking and they said it was ready for submission...anyway although big third parties are hedging their bets the eShop isn't as crowded as other online shops so leaving Zen and NES Video Pinball as the only choices would be a shame...

 

[Punisher]

You know, I wish that it didn't completely reset the table. Why couldn't they jut look at how it works in VP, and apply it? Every time I start and restart any pins on there, all f my stuff is saved, including wizard mode champions, record amount of tasks completed, etc. Fungi has a point, regarding the King's ransom in BK2K. FS needs to find a way to allow games to carry over, even after quitting the pin.

 

[vikingerik]

TPA in Pro mode works exactly like VP. Everything is saved there even across TPA program restarts, as Sean said upthread.

When not in Pro mode, TPA always resets the ROM to a known state to protect the integrity of the leaderboards. TPA really doesn't know what you're doing in the operator settings within the ROM, it can't tell if you set a machine to 10 balls per game or some such silliness. Unfortunately, the high scores and any progressive game status get caught up in that resetting.

 

[netizen]

TPA in Pro mode works exactly like VP. Everything is saved there even across TPA program restarts, as Sean said upthread.

When not in Pro mode, TPA always resets the ROM to a known state to protect the integrity of the leaderboards. TPA really doesn't know what you're doing in the operator settings within the ROM, it can't tell if you set a machine to 10 balls per game or some such silliness. Unfortunately, the high scores and any progressive game status get caught up in that resetting.

 

[Tabe]

TPA in Pro mode works exactly like VP. Everything is saved there even across TPA program restarts, as Sean said upthread.

When not in Pro mode, TPA always resets the ROM to a known state to protect the integrity of the leaderboards. TPA really doesn't know what you're doing in the operator settings within the ROM, it can't tell if you set a machine to 10 balls per game or some such silliness. Unfortunately, the high scores and any progressive game status get caught up in that resetting.

Quite frankly, I don't believe this explanation from Farsight. I *highly* doubt that the ROMs do continual integrity checks on themselves. I would think that Farsight could find a time in the launch sequence when the ROM integrity check has been completed and inject the saved values into correct spots in memory. There is literally zero risk in doing that type of injection. It's not like they can't easily figure out how each game stores stuff like the high score tables and write a routine that mimics that.

Honestly, I think the real reason is that they want to be able to sell Pro versions using "save states" as a feature of the Pro version. If "ROM integrity" and "unknown consequences" were TRULY such an issue, why would they implement those things in the Pro version?

 

[Punisher]

I suppose you're correct, but keep in mind, I bought season 1 pro, and not all of the games have these ROM reset preventions. It would be nice if they all did, but still. Hopefully that's something FS will consider in a future update.

 

[Tabe]

Another thing to keep in mind is that we're not talking about modifications to the game code itself inside the ROM. All we're really talking about is the high score table(s) and maybe one or two other storage areas. Changing the values in those places shouldn't cause issues with the ROMs. The only way I could see THAT being an issue is if the memory locations for the storage areas change every time the ROM is booted. Even that could easily be worked around, however.

 

[Sean DonCarlos]

You'd have to ask FarSight. I'm just repeating the answer we received nearly two years ago when the question first came up. Perhaps there have been advances in the emulator framework since then that would make it possible now.

 

[Roo]

So do real machines save some stuff when unplugged but not others? That's the impression I'm getting if each boot up of a table in TPA is supposed to be like plugging in a real machine. For example, does a real Medieval Madness save the high scores even if you unplug it, but reset the Joust Champion, etc. every time?

It's frustrating to not have those secondary records saved, especially if it's a table that makes you put in a separate set of initials specifically for it. I own PRO mode season passes (mostly for the other features like tips and just to support Farsight in general), but I basically refuse to put it into operator mode because scores and goals don't count. You never know when you're going to have your best game and I'd be pissed if my score didn't count. Not being able to turn off family mode is another similar frustration (that I know has been covered here before).

By the way, wouldn't the erratic ROM behavior (like the jackpots on regular ramp shots story above) be a result of bugs in the original ROM? I can't see how that would be a factor for all tables.

 

[Zaphod77]

Hmm.

Perhaps it would be possible to perform your own integrity checks on the game options? this would allow scores to be submitted even in pro mode, if the settings were at least as hard as the official ones.

 

[brakel]

So do real machines save some stuff when unplugged but not others? That's the impression I'm getting if each boot up of a table in TPA is supposed to be like plugging in a real machine. For example, does a real Medieval Madness save the high scores even if you unplug it, but reset the Joust Champion, etc. every time?

It's frustrating to not have those secondary records saved, especially if it's a table that makes you put in a separate set of initials specifically for it. I own PRO mode season passes (mostly for the other features like tips and just to support Farsight in general), but I basically refuse to put it into operator mode because scores and goals don't count. You never know when you're going to have your best game and I'd be pissed if my score didn't count. Not being able to turn off family mode is another similar frustration (that I know has been covered here before).

By the way, wouldn't the erratic ROM behavior (like the jackpots on regular ramp shots story above) be a result of bugs in the original ROM? I can't see how that would be a factor for all tables.

No, it's not supposed to be like unplugging the machine and plugging it back in. That's how you reset things on a real machine. TPA is setting the virtual ROM values to a known and stable state. It's not trying to simulate a power cycle of a real machine.

Yes, I'm assuming that the ROM had a bug in it. One that would be only found after hours and hours of play. Probably some value some where that would not get reset in certain situations. I don't understand your point. That particular bug would only be found in tables that used that ROM. But there are lots of ROMs with lots of bugs. Just like you rarely find game programming to be bug free, you will rarely find ROM programming that is free of any bugs.

 

[Mike Reitmeyer]

Quite frankly, I don't believe this explanation from Farsight. I *highly* doubt that the ROMs do continual integrity checks on themselves. I would think that Farsight could find a time in the launch sequence when the ROM integrity check has been completed and inject the saved values into correct spots in memory. There is literally zero risk in doing that type of injection. It's not like they can't easily figure out how each game stores stuff like the high score tables and write a routine that mimics that.

Honestly, I think the real reason is that they want to be able to sell Pro versions using "save states" as a feature of the Pro version. If "ROM integrity" and "unknown consequences" were TRULY such an issue, why would they implement those things in the Pro version?

It depends on how you define constant. They don't check every frame, or every second. Sometimes they don't check until something accesses it. So it could appear to work, but later on it's been reset. But the ROMs DO integrity checks, whether you want to believe it or not.

The pro mode method is different than the normal mode. In normal mode we insert your scores when you load the rom, and then start the table. This way the table ALWAYS starts in a valid state. This is the best method to reduce bugs.

In Pro mode we store the entire rom state after each play through. The problem here is if something gets out of sync the game could break and introduce bugs. This is why there is a reset option in pro mode to set it back to normal.

The reason we don't do the pro mode method in normal play is many of our players are casual players that don't know the inner workings of pinball. We want to reduce the complications of the gameplay for them. Pro mode is for the advanced users who have a better understanding of these kinds of issues.

 

[Roo]

Yes, I'm assuming that the ROM had a bug in it. One that would be only found after hours and hours of play. Probably some value some where that would not get reset in certain situations. I don't understand your point. That particular bug would only be found in tables that used that ROM. But there are lots of ROMs with lots of bugs. Just like you rarely find game programming to be bug free, you will rarely find ROM programming that is free of any bugs.

I didn't really have a point other than being curious because I hadn't heard about this issue before. Obviously it must be a big enough problem on enough ROMs that they felt it was warranted to do the "known state" implementation by default.

The issues with certain things not saving is just one of those things that bugs me. I understand it, especially with the info from this thread. But I still wish it was different. I bet a lot of people who don't necessarily read the forums are annoyed/confused by it, too.

 

[Espy]

At the end of the day, FS need to write their own software wrapped around 20, 30-year-old software and that is hard. I don't envy them.

 

[Punisher]

It depends on how you define constant. They don't check every frame, or every second. Sometimes they don't check until something accesses it. So it could appear to work, but later on it's been reset. But the ROMs DO integrity checks, whether you want to believe it or not.

The pro mode method is different than the normal mode. In normal mode we insert your scores when you load the rom, and then start the table. This way the table ALWAYS starts in a valid state. This is the best method to reduce bugs.

In Pro mode we store the entire rom state after each play through. The problem here is if something gets out of sync the game could break and introduce bugs. This is why there is a reset option in pro mode to set it back to normal.

The reason we don't do the pro mode method in normal play is many of our players are casual players that don't know the inner workings of pinball. We want to reduce the complications of the gameplay for them. Pro mode is for the advanced users who have a better understanding of these kinds of issues.

Then here's a pitch for an idea, why not do what you do with the high scores with the other initial-worthy achievements? Some of us like to see our initials plastered all over the attract mode scoring list and such.

 

[netizen]

Then here's a pitch for an idea, why not do what you do with the high scores with the other initial-worthy achievements? Some of us like to see our initials plastered all over the attract mode scoring list and such.

You mean like what is available in Pro Mode?

 

[Punisher]

You mean like what is available in Pro Mode?

Yes, but I would like for my goal to actually tick when I complete them. And not all tables have pro mode.