Top 5-10 Pinballs every made - Pro talk

[PET3R]

I think there's more to it than that. You need to shoot the ramp for multiballs, and you have to make the Juggler locks and several other shots for the wizard mode. It doesn't all get sorted by itself.

Ok, maybe it does not all get sorted by it self as I wrote it, but still it is all pretty much about the ringmaster. I will give this table another try to be able to confirm this.

Random EBs wouldn't have been my major complaint about Theatre. AFM has them too. But anyway, what do you do with the illusion modes? Do you shoot for them? Pretty much everybody agrees that it's best to just wait and time them out, they're not worth enough. You say you love shooting lit arrows... but you'll score more by shooting for bonus X or multiball instead.

WOW. It took you 1 sentece to kill AFM for me. Don't know why but I never noticed AFM's random extra balls. For me it is a big deal as when playing for a high score I want to make sure that every game has the same conditions (same number of balls). Let's face it, that is why we have tournament modes. This might force me to create another top 5 with tournament mode enabled. But because I think it is much more interesting when you are able to earn extra balls within the game (not through the luck) I will stick to this top 5 for now. There are lot of options to earn EB in STTNG and collecting them is not only fun but also skill needed. 4 months of playing AFM did not get me anywhere as I was not sure where to rank this table. Thanks for your comment which will now save me lot of time and thinking. This is why it is so great to have these discussions. We always learn something we have not noticed before.
Regarding TOM - as I have said, I play it only for fun, so yes I play the modes. I have mentioned previously the problem of waiting for the missions to time out. But is it really the best solution, as it seems that you can get some very good scores in many of them. You don't seem to end up with a very high score if you concentrate only on wizard. Or am I wrong ?

Edit: this is also reason why I can't play tables like Earthshaker where the jackpot value is selected randomly at the beginning of the game. RBION has actually the same problem but at least here the 6 million jackpot in your 200 million high score does not play such a big role.
Can't remember the table, but I know there is one where the super jackpot grows from game to game until it is collected. Is it SPP or is it a different table ? Doesn't AC/DC have something similar with encore jackpot ?

Told ya so. Like I was saying, MB's structure is so great because the path to the wizard mode is entirely up to the player. And not just one path and one wizard mode, but two.

The table and rules are really great but what concerns me is the score importance of the Monsters of Rock. This table to me feels a bit like SS where your score really starts inflating once you hit the wizard mode. The final score I get in MB without the wizard is around 200-300m while with 1 wizard it can be anything between 500 - 1 billion points. I am starting to feel that it all pretty much comes to the wizard mutliball and how long can you last there.

Have you tried playing this for only Borg Multiball and not for the missions? Once you get good at that, Borg MB scores more than the missions and Final Frontier do.

I thought this was only the issue of the PC. I play on ipad mini where the balls don't last very long. Also this top 5 is suppose to represent real life tables and I thought you have said before that Borg Multiball is not an issue IRL.


OMG, I have noticed only now that Tarek Oberdieck has posted on my topic. That means he was reading something from this post. I feel exactly like a very excited 13 y old fan of Justin Beiber now who was able to see him in real life
Please Tarek, if you read this, write your short opinion about this topic as well as your top 5 and why. It would be my dream come true. ))

 

[vikingerik]

WOW. It took you 1 sentece to kill AFM for me. Don't know why but I never noticed AFM's random extra balls.

Well, if you're that worried, you can just drain any of the random EBs if you don't like them.

Regarding TOM - as I have said, I play it only for fun, so yes I play the modes. I have mentioned previously the problem of waiting for the missions to time out. But is it really the best solution, as it seems that you can get some very good scores in many of them. You don't seem to end up with a very high score if you concentrate only on wizard. Or am I wrong ?

In TPA at least, the big thing is that every time you reach the wizard mode, it lights a Special for an EB. And EBs are the biggest thing you can do in TOM because each one can be 1 billion or more in bonus.

In other words, TOM's wizard mode really scores a billion secret points, in the form of that EB and the bonus for it. It is very easy to overlook this EB, as the game gives you no fanfare about lighting the special and little for collecting it.

This might be different on the real table, especially if the special reward is not set to EB. But bonus still dominates, and the biggest component of that is how many illusions you have started, so it's best to start them and then safely hold the ball so you can start more.

Can't remember the table, but I know there is one where the super jackpot grows from game to game until it is collected. Is it SPP or is it a different table ? Doesn't AC/DC have something similar with encore jackpot ?

There are many in TPA: High Speed, Pinbot, Taxi, Cyclone at least, but in TPA you can always quit the table to reset the jackpot to the original value. I don't remember an escalating jackpot in SPP, but it (depending on settings) will carry balls locked in the couch from game to game.

The table and rules are really great but what concerns me is the score importance of the Monsters of Rock. This table to me feels a bit like SS where your score really starts inflating once you hit the wizard mode. The final score I get in MB without the wizard is around 200-300m while with 1 wizard it can be anything between 500 - 1 billion points. I am starting to feel that it all pretty much comes to the wizard mutliball and how long can you last there.

This is true. But isn't that why you like MM, for the skill testing wizard mode?

I thought this was only the issue of the PC. I play on ipad mini where the balls don't last very long. Also this top 5 is suppose to represent real life tables and I thought you have said before that Borg Multiball is not an issue IRL.

Well, Slam23 plays long games on an iPad too. But anyway, yeah, Borg MB isn't an unbalancing issue on a real machine.

 

[PET3R]

Well, if you're that worried, you can just drain any of the random EBs if you don't like them.

Nah, it's not the same any more. On top of that you can't compare your high score with other players any more as you will be the only one draining the EBs.

In TPA at least, the big thing is that every time you reach the wizard mode, it lights a Special for an EB. And EBs are the biggest thing you can do in TOM because each one can be 1 billion or more in bonus.

In other words, TOM's wizard mode really scores a billion secret points, in the form of that EB and the bonus for it. It is very easy to overlook this EB, as the game gives you no fanfare about lighting the special and little for collecting it.

This might be different on the real table, especially if the special reward is not set to EB. But bonus still dominates, and the biggest component of that is how many illusions you have started, so it's best to start them and then safely hold the ball so you can start more.

I could tell you the same here. Don't go for the special or just subtract that 1 billion from your final score. Would you do it ?

This is true. But isn't that why you like MM, for the skill testing wizard mode?

There is a difference in having a skill testing wizard mode and score dominating wizard mode. If it is all down to wizard mode then than there is not much difference between this and 3x Jackpot in WW, or maximasing the super jackpot in older era tables (Diner ?) and then collecting it. TZ is really good with the wizard mode as it allows you to score lot of points but it is not dominating the overall score. You can easily achieve high score with a very badly played wizard mode. Maybe that timer is really good idea after all.

Well, Slam23 plays long games on an iPad too. But anyway, yeah, Borg MB isn't an unbalancing issue on a real machine.

Is there a way or place where you could see the high scores filtered by device ? If not, I wish this is something TPA would implement as I would love to compete in highscores and see how good I am doing against the other players on the same platform.

 

[Crooker]

If you go to pinballarcade.com and click on leaderboards you can filter scores by device.

 

[PET3R]

If you go to pinballarcade.com and click on leaderboards you can filter scores by device.

Great stuff. Thanks a lot.

 

[PET3R]

And the winner is Scared Stiff

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Well, not really, but yes.

To be honest, number one spot stays empty for now. Let me explain.

The whole journey came down to two tables MB and STTNG and so I was concentrating only on these two to decide the winner. Until something unexpected happened to me yesterday. I was in the middle of MB when for the very first time I have noticed random extra ball award from the scoop. As you know I don't like randomness in pinball, otherwise I would still keep playing Bride of Pinbot. Extra ball is a big thing to me as that is one more ball during which you can earn really lot of points. Don't get me wrong, I like extra balls, but when they are earned and not randomly awarded. I went straight to check the rules of the STTNG to see whether there are any random ball awards and it seems that answer is yes.

I find MB to be very clever table and STTNG to have probably the best ruleset out there with some very good scoring. However none of them is 100 % perfect to me and so my search for the no.1 table still continues.

You will probably say now: "Tournament mode will sort your randomness problem". This is where Scared Stiff comes and shines.
First of all Tournament mode will make any table a flat 3 ball game. Scared Stiff have extra balls, but all are earned exactly the same way from game to game.
Secondly - other random features. Scared Stiff's "Stop the spider" addressed very well randomness of the scoop. In MB you are randomly awarded progress towards monsters. Sometimes it starts the monster, sometimes it only advances monster and sometimes you will get nothing. Similarly skill shot will give you random item. Sometimes the item really helps, other times the item is very useless as you might not need it anymore. This is where STTNG is ahead of MB because it does not have these random awards.

I would like to know whether Tournament mode in MB does anything with the randomness of the scoop and skill shot ? If yes then MB would probably be my no.1 table with tournament mode on, otherwise I am afraid Scared Stiff takes the spot as it contains 0% luck. This is something I wanted MB, AFM, STTNG, RBION and other tables to be.

As I have said, no.1 spot is still unclaimed and therefore I am going to start research on Stern post 2000 tables to see whether there happens to be one to claim the spot.

 

[Crooker]

Off the top of my sleep deprived head I can't think of a random extra ball in STTNG. Do tell please.

 

[PET3R]

It's supposed to be one of the awards of Skill Shot and Launch Probe.

Can anyone comment on this and clarify these are random awards or do you need to qualify for certain condition like a badly played game ?

Does anyone here play the strategy of going for skill shot or probe only to get that extra ball ?

 

[vikingerik]

I was in the middle of MB when for the very first time I have noticed random extra ball award from the scoop.

This happens only once per game, I'm pretty sure. Same goes for AFM's EB at Stroke of Luck (all its other random EBs are from video mode.) I've never seen it more than once in a game, in very long games on either table. You will get this EB eventually in a long enough game, and not more than once, so it's not unbalancing.

STTNG's is a pity extra ball: it occurs on ball 3 if your score is very low. AFM, MB, and MM all do this too: if you're doing very badly on ball 3, the random scoop is highly likely to give an EB. These pity EBs don't figure into any serious game or high score since you're already doing badly if you get one.

Also, STTNG has enough EBs anyway (every ball at 10x bonus, and for winning Battle Simulation mission) that one more doesn't matter much. It matters a lot more on AFM, and somewhere inbetween on MB.

I would like to know whether Tournament mode in MB does anything with the randomness of the scoop and skill shot ?

I'm not familiar with MB in particular here, but I'd guess yes. The general idea of tournament mode on all the Williams machines is to derandomize random awards.

 

[PET3R]

This happens only once per game, I'm pretty sure. Same goes for AFM's EB at Stroke of Luck (all its other random EBs are from video mode.) I've never seen it more than once in a game, in very long games on either table. You will get this EB eventually in a long enough game, and not more than once, so it's not unbalancing.

STTNG's is a pity extra ball: it occurs on ball 3 if your score is very low. AFM, MB, and MM all do this too: if you're doing very badly on ball 3, the random scoop is highly likely to give an EB. These pity EBs don't figure into any serious game or high score since you're already doing badly if you get one.

Also, STTNG has enough EBs anyway (every ball at 10x bonus, and for winning Battle Simulation mission) that one more doesn't matter much. It matters a lot more on AFM, and somewhere inbetween on MB.

The AFM is the worst out of them as you can get it through stroke of luck, video mode or strobe multiball which are selected at random, right ?

Even if it happens only once in MB, I think there can be a big difference in score when you play with 4 balls instead of 3.

I am aware of pity extra ball awards, I was asking how does the Skill Shot and Launch probe extra ball award works.
You are right that with all the EBs in STTNG one does not make that of a huge difference. The other advantage of STTNG is that balls usually don't last long.
You also have to take into account that while you might pursue strategy of going for random extra ball award at the beginning of the ball you are also scarifying start mode, warp 4 or other plunger advantages so this balances it even more.

 

[vikingerik]

Only video mode is really random in AFM. Stroke of Luck is just once per game. Strobe Multiball is not random; it always occurs after three Stroke of Luck shots (if something like Martian Attack is conflicting, Strobe will wait until the next Stroke shot instead), and the EB always takes 10 forcefield hits.

 

[PET3R]

Only video mode is really random in AFM. Stroke of Luck is just once per game. Strobe Multiball is not random; it always occurs after three Stroke of Luck shots (if something like Martian Attack is conflicting, Strobe will wait until the next Stroke shot instead), and the EB always takes 10 forcefield hits.

That's good to know. I have learned so much from this thread. I am really glad i have started it.

Does stroke of luck always happen in a long game ?

You can get EB from video only once, is that right ?

 

[vikingerik]

Stroke of Luck doesn't always happen in a long game, but it's probably like 90% likely or so after an hour.

EB from video mode is repeatable, and is random every time.

 

[PET3R]

And the Winner (so far) is Star Trek Vengeance (Stern)

 

[switch3flip]

Regarding stroke of luck on AFM, stroke of luck is lit by lighting all 4 inlane/outlane lights. The third Stroke of Luck award will normally be Strobe Multiball. Stroke of Luck will award Video Mode the first time it is hit after Super Jets has been completed, even if it is the third time. Strobe Multiball will then be the next Stroke of Luck award given.

 

[PET3R]

Why Star Trek Vengeance deserves the top spot?

It rewards the good, accurate and fast play & there is no such a thing as:

1. this mode is big drain hazard or is not worth playing (TOM, TZ)
2. "Some of the pro players ignore the modes and just rush to the wizard mode" (TAF)
3. Bonus can be more valuable than anything else (CC,TOM)
4. It's pretty much down to 3x jackpot (WW)
5. For big points just shoot the castle or play the multiball (MM)
6. Take your time, there is no rush (MM)
7. Repetitive shots (MM,AFM,CV)
8. Wizard mode is where all the big points are BUT! it does not matter how well did you play before as it does not affect the scoring of wizard. The key to high score is to keep it going for as long as you can (MB,SS)
9. Wizard is too easy to reach (TOTAN, SS, CC)
10. Big drainer (STTNG, CC)
11. Annoying interruption by video modes (STTNG, AFM, MM, TOM)
12. Those magnets (TAF)
13. Left, right, piano (TZ
14. It's all about the cannon (T2)
15. I have completed the Wizard mode, played victory laps and drained the ball. I have the last ball left. Not much to do here, feels like a restart of the game. (MM)
16. Everything went so perfect but was unable to complete that last goal which stoped me from any progress. I tried it again and again with no luck. So annoying. (AFM-SJ, MB-bride?)

Because the shot values in STV are accumulative (each following shot is of a higher value) and together with medals play a big role in wizard modes you want to get them all.
Combos double the value of the next shot and therefore a quick play and accuracy is rewarded. Multicolor flashing shots that are worth much more than other shots adds to the need for accuracy.

Thanks to 3 wizard modes the game does not leave you unsatisfied that you haven't reached one (MM in real life) but also does not feel too easy to beat.

After the final 3/3 wizard the game does not feel as if it restarted because:

A) shots are acumulative, each of the mission shots will be multiple times higher than in the first round and

B) You will have accumulated total of 24 medals by the time you reach your second (round) 1/3 wizard.
So if you have collected all Golds -
1st round 1/3 W - 6 Gold medals (35m)
2nd round 1/3 W - 24 Gold Medals (140m)

6 missions is not a big number and therefore you never feel very far from the next wizard mode. + there are rewards for 3 missions in line.

I always felt that STTNG was very close to the top spot but it has it's own issues and I feel that STV has perfected it in every way. Layout (ramps, 3 flippers) and scoring are top notch.

Don't get me wrong all other mentioned tables are really great but they do have some annoyances and to me they feel like the best of 90's. Like everything else , pinbal has also evolved/moved forward and some of the stern's post 2000 (especially recent) tables are a great example (LOTR, Spidey, Metallica, Ac/dc, STV, Tron?). They are starting to have much more deep/complex rule sets that works well and have a ballanced scoring.
On top of that many of the codes are still being updated and perfected.

 

[jonesjb]

Actually, I think there is a new contender for first place: Alien.

I've been reading about this game, and it looks amazing. Advanced rules that are very, very, balanced. Here is a quote from the programmer, posted on Pinside. It's worth noting that the programmer is also an avid tournament player:

"Alien's scoring is generally designed around chain reactions. As an example: destroying eggs increases the value of modes that involve eggs (Derelict Ship and Queen's Nest). Doing well in modes increases the value of the associated mini-wizard mode, as well as the final wizard mode. Doing well in modes also gives weapons that you can use to boost your scoring in other modes or multiballs.
However, I've tried to scale things so the scoring progressions are more Fibonacci-ish rather than exponential. That means that Alien won't have many situations of "OMG that one shot that was worth more than my last 5 game scores combined" ... but it also shouldn't have many situations of putting players "in jail" where you screw up one thing and your scoring potential goes completely down the drain. Hopefully everyone finds the balance to be fair and fun. And of course, if any of the scoring is out of whack (and let's be realistic, SOMETHING will probably be out of whack in the initial version... probably multiple somethings... I'm quite interested to learn what exploit someone like KME comes up with!) I'm committed to making it right."

 

[PET3R]

Actually, I think there is a new contender for first place: Alien.[/I]

Is it Highway Pinball you talk about ? I have checked it out and it definitely looks interesting. 4 flippers and it seems that it has some good ramps and toys placement.

Anyone played this table and can share their experience ?

 

[Kolchak357]

Is it Highway Pinball you talk about ? I have checked it out and it definitely looks interesting. 4 flippers and it seems that it has some good ramps and toys placement.

Anyone played this table and can share their experience ?

I don't know anyone that has played Alien yet. I don't think very many have shipped yet (very new).

 

[WhiteChocolate]

I have played each table at least 30-50 times.

pardon the potentially snark-castic aside... but an up-front/rankable/viewable metric for the player-slash-user of how many times they've played a particular tab would be -AWESOME-... would be a -great- way for someone to either play their faves, or choose something they don't often play enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry, was that enough exclamations to express my feelings about that idea?!? ;0)

p.s. btw, that was an awfully brave move PET3R declaring "scared stiff" as #1!! but for what it's worth, pretty kewl!! (since that's the only commonly available table outside of stern so far, i'll stick to that statement!)