Very torn about Farsight as a company (sort of rant but also a question, confused)

[Tron]

Of course it's probably much cheaper to afford a full-time community manager in Hungary than in the USA, maybe that's also a big difference.

I believe Zen's community manager Barbiebobomb is based in the US. It is what it is, Zen Studios know how to buff and polish their game. Farsight can only buff.

 

[Psy-Q]

Oh, I just noticed a new thing. SPA has come to Steam and it seems to be a mess. This is exactly what I mean. They have these great licenses, real fun in-game experience, and then it saddens me to see when they release yet another broken UI, forget things like keyboard support and announce DLC that can't even be purchased. The quality seems to be all in one place and nowhere else for them

 

[shutyertrap]

First off, I've met many on the FarSight team. I've visited their studio twice up in Big Bear. There are some really great people working there, a few who are genuine pinball fanatics. I believe they have less than 35 people on staff, which is insane for the amount of work they have each month. I remember going into one guy's office and seeing a stack of 5 or 6 Android devices that he needed to make sure the game performed on with each release. They used to only have one programmer, might be 2 now, and he was not the same person that worked on the engine. So it's not like there are dedicated PC, Playstation, Xbox, iOS, Android, etc, teams. Everybody is working on everything. Nod ideal, but good enough.

The building and releasing of tables takes precedent. They've gotten much better at addressing bugs prior to release, and do manage the time to fix a few each month. Everything else they manage to do with the game is pure gravy. It's not an excuse, just reality. As for people offering up their services for "free", well it's more than just whipping up a pretty looking UI. You've gotta make it functional within the game as determined by FarSight. They would like it to look the same on all platforms. It must function for touch, mouse, controller, and keyboard. It's no easy task and not something that can "be thrown together in a few hours" as I've seen some people mention. I'm sure none of these people have actually contacted FarSight to drop off an application either.

A few years back, I decided to accept the game for what it was, not what it could be. Any improvements that happened became nice additions rather than exasperated "took them long enough" moments. I loved the game when it first came out, and sure the honeymoon period is long over, but I still do love it. Boneheaded decisions and all.

Now, regarding Stern Pinball Arcade...you must view FarSight as a hired gun here. Stern is making the decisions about release, while FarSight takes all the criticism. The same team responsible for TPA is simultaneously working on a completely separate game with SPA. We beta testers for PC never even saw the build of SPA before it got released, and I can only assume that's because Stern didn't want us to. Maybe FS missed the deadline promised to Stern, but Stern ultimately was the one saying to release it, not FS. It's been this way with info and press release, no reason it isn't the same with the actual game.

Ultimately my feelings are as such. FarSight, great group of people, produce a game I love, eyes are bigger than their stomachs. Playing the woulda, coulda, shoulda game is pointless, though none of us can help it. Go to a pinball expo, find the FarSight booth, talk to Mike and Norman, you'll see that FarSight is not some evil cash grab studio that doesn't give a crap about you or your pinball obsession. They've been making this version of pinball for 5 years. How many other games do you play that are actively developed for that long? Exactly.

 

[kaworu]

First off, I've met many on the FarSight team. I've visited their studio twice up in Big Bear. There are some really great people working there, a few who are genuine pinball fanatics. I believe they have less than 35 people on staff, which is insane for the amount of work they have each month. I remember going into one guy's office and seeing a stack of 5 or 6 Android devices that he needed to make sure the game performed on with each release. They used to only have one programmer, might be 2 now, and he was not the same person that worked on the engine. So it's not like there are dedicated PC, Playstation, Xbox, iOS, Android, etc, teams. Everybody is working on everything. Nod ideal, but good enough.

The building and releasing of tables takes precedent. They've gotten much better at addressing bugs prior to release, and do manage the time to fix a few each month. Everything else they manage to do with the game is pure gravy. It's not an excuse, just reality. As for people offering up their services for "free", well it's more than just whipping up a pretty looking UI. You've gotta make it functional within the game as determined by FarSight. They would like it to look the same on all platforms. It must function for touch, mouse, controller, and keyboard. It's no easy task and not something that can "be thrown together in a few hours" as I've seen some people mention. I'm sure none of these people have actually contacted FarSight to drop off an application either.

A few years back, I decided to accept the game for what it was, not what it could be. Any improvements that happened became nice additions rather than exasperated "took them long enough" moments. I loved the game when it first came out, and sure the honeymoon period is long over, but I still do love it. Boneheaded decisions and all.

Now, regarding Stern Pinball Arcade...you must view FarSight as a hired gun here. Stern is making the decisions about release, while FarSight takes all the criticism. The same team responsible for TPA is simultaneously working on a completely separate game with SPA. We beta testers for PC never even saw the build of SPA before it got released, and I can only assume that's because Stern didn't want us to. Maybe FS missed the deadline promised to Stern, but Stern ultimately was the one saying to release it, not FS. It's been this way with info and press release, no reason it isn't the same with the actual game.

Ultimately my feelings are as such. FarSight, great group of people, produce a game I love, eyes are bigger than their stomachs. Playing the woulda, coulda, shoulda game is pointless, though none of us can help it. Go to a pinball expo, find the FarSight booth, talk to Mike and Norman, you'll see that FarSight is not some evil cash grab studio that doesn't give a crap about you or your pinball obsession. They've been making this version of pinball for 5 years. How many other games do you play that are actively developed for that long? Exactly.

and i can tell same story but with less amount of words:
farsight constantly makes new content and features, but release them in unfinished/incomplete/bugged state and beging to make another things, raaaaarely returning to review their previous work.
and another little fact what just cant be said other way: here no need to have more than 1 programmer to make application launch in fullscreen mode or navigation in few rows of text menu, and if he cant do it he is just a bad programmer, no matter how genuine pinhead he is.

 

[Heretic]

here no need to have more than 1 programmer to make application launch in fullscreen mode or navigation in few rows of text menu, and if he cant do it he is just a bad programmer, no matter how genuine pinhead he is.

i take it your an experienced software dev to make such a sweeping statement?

 

[dalek777]

Well stated, Shutyertrap.

Since this is my first post, a brief introduction. I'm 60, been a tradesman all my life and bought my first PC about 8 years ago. On my way home from Circuit City with my shiny new computer, I stopped at Barnes & Noble and purchased the Windows for Dummies book. With that and a little help from my friends, I learned computers. Today, I'm by no means a sophisticated user, but I get around the internet quite well and continue to learn. I have a successful internet business, three years old, that won't make me rich, but is a real nice supplement to my income.

One of my greatest expectations of my new computer was to while away a few hours playing some of the cool games that I'd seen. My first great disappointment was to learn that I'm not really a gamer. I play chess and a few other games, but I never really got into it an a grand scale. I've been hooked on pinball since I was about five. I always enjoyed the Windows Space Cadet game for what it is and tried a couple of other pinball games on disc, only to be underwhelmed.

About a year and a half ago, I discovered Pinball Arcade. I wasn't too hot about the whole Steam thing, but I took the leap, downloaded the program and the free game and was duly impressed. After being totally mesmerized playing Arabian Nights (never my favorite) for a couple hours, I bought seasons 1 and 2 and now own 3,4 and 5 also.

It's been a ton of fun, so far. I still play real pinball, but it sure is great to have the next best thing right here on my PC. I especially enjoy some of the tables that you just don't see in bars and arcades anymore. I like the tournaments more than I thought I would and finally broke into the Silver level in the Christmas tourney.

I can see plenty of flaws in the games and have been made aware of more by visiting this forum. Overall, it's a positive experience, cheaper than dope and better for you.

Kudos to the folks at Farsight for their efforts.

 

[Slam23]

First off, I've met many on the FarSight team. I've visited their studio twice up in Big Bear. There are some really great people working there, a few who are genuine pinball fanatics. I believe they have less than 35 people on staff, which is insane for the amount of work they have each month. I remember going into one guy's office and seeing a stack of 5 or 6 Android devices that he needed to make sure the game performed on with each release. They used to only have one programmer, might be 2 now, and he was not the same person that worked on the engine. So it's not like there are dedicated PC, Playstation, Xbox, iOS, Android, etc, teams. Everybody is working on everything. Nod ideal, but good enough.

The building and releasing of tables takes precedent. They've gotten much better at addressing bugs prior to release, and do manage the time to fix a few each month. Everything else they manage to do with the game is pure gravy. It's not an excuse, just reality. As for people offering up their services for "free", well it's more than just whipping up a pretty looking UI. You've gotta make it functional within the game as determined by FarSight. They would like it to look the same on all platforms. It must function for touch, mouse, controller, and keyboard. It's no easy task and not something that can "be thrown together in a few hours" as I've seen some people mention. I'm sure none of these people have actually contacted FarSight to drop off an application either.

A few years back, I decided to accept the game for what it was, not what it could be. Any improvements that happened became nice additions rather than exasperated "took them long enough" moments. I loved the game when it first came out, and sure the honeymoon period is long over, but I still do love it. Boneheaded decisions and all.

Now, regarding Stern Pinball Arcade...you must view FarSight as a hired gun here. Stern is making the decisions about release, while FarSight takes all the criticism. The same team responsible for TPA is simultaneously working on a completely separate game with SPA. We beta testers for PC never even saw the build of SPA before it got released, and I can only assume that's because Stern didn't want us to. Maybe FS missed the deadline promised to Stern, but Stern ultimately was the one saying to release it, not FS. It's been this way with info and press release, no reason it isn't the same with the actual game.

Ultimately my feelings are as such. FarSight, great group of people, produce a game I love, eyes are bigger than their stomachs. Playing the woulda, coulda, shoulda game is pointless, though none of us can help it. Go to a pinball expo, find the FarSight booth, talk to Mike and Norman, you'll see that FarSight is not some evil cash grab studio that doesn't give a crap about you or your pinball obsession. They've been making this version of pinball for 5 years. How many other games do you play that are actively developed for that long? Exactly.

Thanks for sharing this. With the global community on internet and no real contact between customer and "store" it's easier to forget there are real people working hard at delivering the goods to your digital door. Not to say that we should accept everything and be non-critical fanboys, but in the end you can always vote with your wallet.

 

[DanBradford]

I like this thread. I love TPA and Farsight even though I betch about them sometimes too. We only complain because we care.

Merry Christmas to all at Farsight and all on here. Cthulhu bless us, every one.

 

[superdan]

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." Tale of two cities.
*keep in mind I do acknowledge farsight makes great video versions of licensed pinball games and they are fun and entertaining as heck to play. This is not the issue.*
I can sum up my feelings about farsight in one word...frustrated.
I'm frustrated that they had, and have, the ability to blow this out of the water, to bring pinball to millions, not just thousands...but instead, have a limited business model of one to two new games a month, stale tourney at the end of the month, rinse, repeat...at the expense of everything else. And it's too bad because the games are so fricking great (at least, most of them). This model will ensure that their growth will be limited and appeal to a small market.
They have been unable (rather unwilling) to bring daily tourneys with prizes, managed leagues, qualifiers for live or online tournaments, bracket challenges, live multiplayer games with chat, the list goes on. Could even do these things with a monthly charge with different levels. I would gladly sign up. But no.
These would require a shift of resources, perhaps a different business paradigm, or additional departments, but so what?
I started on farsight pinball arcade with 105% of myself...even started a short-runned podcast about it called the pin-bar cavern, had a logo, t-shirts made, tried to start a tournament called the score goal tournament that didn't get off the ground for many reasons...but I don't want to digress.
The point is, I realize farsight is stuck in this model, at least for now or in the last 4 years...and my time is better spent on other activities and projects that at least are more responsive. I still enjoy pinball arcade and play it quite a bit, but it's such a shame that they don't slow down their creation of new games and start improving the playing experience both socially and interactively. In the meantime...it is what it is but I will keep hoping.
Cheers

 

[soundwave106]

and another little fact what just cant be said other way: here no need to have more than 1 programmer to make application launch in fullscreen mode or navigation in few rows of text menu, and if he cant do it he is just a bad programmer, no matter how genuine pinhead he is.

For one environment, your statement is correct.
For *lots* of environments, your statement is not necessarily correct.

Basically I do think Farsight spreads themselves too thin, ultimately one or two programmers for all platforms doesn't sound like a lot.

It is true that the dev tools for games are better these days but I'm not sure they're *that* good.

 

[greatdane]

If they still only have one programmer it is a sign of poor management. I feel bad for that programmer then.

But after all Farsight is still stated as developer and publisher on the Steam page, so they should be held accountable for this product. Releasing a product so broken that you can't even buy the tables is surely not ideal for either customers or Farsight/Stern... lol. I hope they get their act together soon so I can support them again.

 

[steven120566]

Wow, alot of thoughts here, good points. I will fall back to the side of STOP releasing new tables, and fix the bugs in the ones we paid for. Yes, they are clearly spread too thin. Way up this chain somebody listed the formats they have to support. Well, they ain't doin that. While I was excited about WiiU release, to say they "support" it is crazy. A bug so bad it makes all tables look so dark they are unplayable almost, and not one update when they said they had found the bug last May! I paid for these 40 tables and could care less about the ones that don't exist for system x or y. It does concern me the number of people who just want the thing they paid for to work.

Farsight does great stuff , but has not done it quite right yet. IMO they should not publish on a platform that they can't fix bugs on. For whatever reason, time, funds, or whatever. They must fix the platforms they have published on, simply as a business promise.

 

[steven120566]

Totally agree with these points, kind of wish Farsight would "cut some fat" from all the platforms they are on, sorry to those that want TPA on Wii U/Ouya/360/PS3/Vita/VR but think they would be better served by offering to let you get TPA on another platform of your choice. I would get rid of season passes on Xbox1/PS4 til all the tables are released similar to the Apple platforms, maybe only release half a season at a time but stop with the monthly updates since it's pretty obvious something is wrong in Sony/Microsoft ways of dealing with them.

Hire people whose sole job is to work on bugs/fix old textures on tables.

The point Blkthorne makes is the best I have heard. I would feel Farsight has done their dilegence to make things right if I could get the tables I paid for on a Wii U, on a different console. Even if they cut the cord with a console or two, Let people get the table on XBone or PS4! Brilliant! I'd have to buy a different console, but I'd get the working tables I thought I paid for in the first place.

I don't see it happening so I will continue to hope they support their releases, new tables do not matter for people that have invested! That ain't what they ought to be asking for, especially in the Nintendo realm. Just make the ones that they have released, work.

 

[Heretic]

I feel like suggesting some of you read the mythical man month, but that would be lost on some.

iguess in the end i hope you all get what your looking for

have a great new year and play some ball

9 little bugs in the code.
99 little bugs.
Take one down, patch it around.
127 little bugs in the code...

 

[soundwave106]

I feel like suggesting some of you read the mythical man month, but that would be lost on some.

Heh, I *am* a software developer.

The ultimate problem in software development is that the needs of business (monetary stream or project etc.) usually is too tight of a deadline to achieve any sort of software quality.

I will add that realistically what business observes is true in a sense. In 90% of software, people grumble about little bugs, but as long as it is not a complete disaster, people accept "good enough" and purchase the product anyways. Mission critical software (the type where bugs can cause, you know, deaths etc.) tends to go through a *lot* more hassle just to dot every i and cross every t. But that costs money. Hell people aren't even paying $40+ for a single game on one platform like they did in the old days.

Adding software developers is most feasible at the beginning of a project. One of the big reasons why the mythical man month is what it is, is that it can take *months* easily to ramp up a new programmer to the competence level of someone with experience. Some of the worst code at our companies I've seen comes from stuff we contract out due to deadlines, and in fairness to the contractors I can't blame them at all.

 

[EldarOfSuburbia]

Adding software developers is most feasible at the beginning of a project. One of the big reasons why the mythical man month is what it is, is that it can take *months* easily to ramp up a new programmer to the competence level of someone with experience. Some of the worst code at our companies I've seen comes from stuff we contract out due to deadlines, and in fairness to the contractors I can't blame them at all.

This. Actually it will usually take a new developer far less time to learn the language and tools they're using for development (if they didn't know them already), than it will to learn the ropes of the company and project they're working on. I usually like to anticipate an average new body to get up to speed in 3 months or so. At least 12 months before they're considered experienced and trustworthy enough to have actual ideas that might impact the business. And incrementally longer for those ideas to be listened to and accepted in shorter time and with less prompting and by more important people.

 

[Psy-Q]

Developer and in a past life dev team lead and project lead for two larger development projects here as well.

I haven't had to manage a company that needs to release DLC every month to stay afloat, but I can't see how that amount of pressure can be sustained with just one person on the development side. You make urge-to-release your primary driver and so something else (in this case it seems it's quality) has to suffer. There is no way to achieve speed and quality at the same time unless your team is a well-oiled machine of destruction. Let alone doing it with just one developer. That's also risky -- what if that person quits or becomes ill? Farsight'd have to train a new person who can't even talk to the old person and has to figure everything out just looking at the code. In my experience solo programmers also get lazy sometimes with documenting and writing tests since they have the whole model in their head. They also don't benefit from a second pair of eyes that could do code review and help improve things before they even go in the build.

Also, what point is there to release DLC to a game that gets bad ratings, so the base game doesn't increase its number of installs and only the existing customers buy any DLC?

If I were them I'd take a break from releasing anything until the stack of bugs and issues is reduced, and I'd find at least one more dev. Reduce technical debt. It looks like that's their main problem right now. Or they could open the engine source (not the assets) and ask the community for contributions. It'd be fine because no one could remake and redistribute any real tables without entering the same legal gray area as with VP, so the only non-Farsight tables that could legally appear would be original creations. But now I'm deep into dream-town I guess.

I hope they'll manage, one day, and I'm tempted to buy a second season pack even though I don't need anything but the first one.

 

[Heretic]

mention the mythical man and they all come outta the woodwork I was actually aware some of you guys done some dev. my comment was more for those who dont understand the process.

and before anyone freaks out im not saying you need to in order to have an opinion!

just been irked the last few days by someunfair comments across the forum...dont mind me i just prop up the bar

edit - on a side note for purely hobbyist personal kicks id love to see that emulation code....but i believe thats the only work not done in house.

 

[soundwave106]

mention the mythical man and they all come outta the woodwork I was actually aware some of you guys done some dev. my comment was more for those who dont understand the process.

Right.

Ultimately, though, there ends up being a difference between products like The Pinball Arcade (which has some bugs and quirks but a fair number of people can accept them) and what I see from Stern Pinball Arcade, which appears to have been a rather disastrous product launch. You can release the former and be okay; the later is not going to sell well and (for all I know) it's possible it might not recover.

Regardless of the quirks of software development (which means solving it is a harder and longer slog than some people think), Farsight will need to address this.

 

[Psy-Q]

It seems they managed to iron out some of the most glaring mistakes (like broken keyboard support and settings not being saved) now. I think spending two more days on QA and releasing without those issues in the first place would have saved them from the torrent of **** they faced in Steam reviews. I think you're right, soundwave106, the product might not ever recover unless the positive reviews roll in now (and explain the negative ones). Even if it's Stern that's putting the pressure on, hoping for holiday sales, it can't be in their best interest to have a horrific launch of a product that carries their name right in the title. Oh well. It is what it is now.