WMS License - Speculation Thread

[BostonBuckeye]

I was playing some of the older tables last night - it really is a shame they won't see any further updates or improvements
Unless they totally surprise us within the next month, but they're probably not allowed to even do that
When they ended Season 7, I was hoping they would spend some more time going back, as they indicated.

But, I am glad I still have them even if nothing further will be done with them.

Not true. Bobby King said during the BlahCade podcast interview with Chris that even after they lose the rights to sell the tables, they are still free to make any improvements to the games they wish (bug fixes, artwork updates, physics tuning, etc.)

 

[MadAxeMan]

It is true, listen again, listen how he skirts around it, they will still support the tables (not the same thing)
I'm pretty positive their license agreement excludes any further development.
Like WMS are gonna be absolutely complete jerks like this, making Farsight completely strip clean (we're already seeing it), and yet let them continue development.
And for Farsight's part, why would they devote further resources that will generate $0 revenue (as in a big ZERO) on top of no longer being licensed to do so.
They are a business first and foremost, with the intent to make money, they have no choice but to move on.

From the Arcoodia FAQ site:
Will you support Arcooda Pinball Arcade after 30th June?
Yes and no. We will continue to support Arcooda software and Arcooda Cabinet integration. However, we have lost the Williams/Bally license and no further development will be occurring on the Williams/Bally products.

We're going get what is currently available, and after June 30th, that will be that.

 

[shutyertrap]

Not true. Bobby King said during the BlahCade podcast interview with Chris that even after they lose the rights to sell the tables, they are still free to make any improvements to the games they wish (bug fixes, artwork updates, physics tuning, etc.)

What he said. It is within their rights to maintain and keep the tables running and performing however FarSight wishes. So keep on them, keep asking for what table they are updating next, tell them how much it would mean to you and your continued support of purchasing future tables if they continued with these efforts to update older released tables.

 

[shutyertrap]

It is true, listen again, listen how he skirts around it, they will still support the tables (not the same thing)
I'm pretty positive their license agreement excludes any further development.
Like WMS are gonna be absolutely complete jerks like this, making Farsight completely strip clean (we're already seeing it), and yet let them continue development.
And for Farsight's part, why would they devote further resources that will generate $0 revenue (as in a big ZERO) on top of no longer being licensed to do so.
They are a business first and foremost, with the intent to make money, they have no choice but to move on.

From the Arcoodia FAQ site:
Will you support Arcooda Pinball Arcade after 30th June?
Yes and no. We will continue to support Arcooda software and Arcooda Cabinet integration. However, we have lost the Williams/Bally license and no further development will be occurring on the Williams/Bally products.

We're going get what is currently available, and after June 30th, that will be that.

You are not wrong either. FarSight has a long history of saying "we'd like to" which often does not translate to "we will". The only revenue to be gained is in future sales, but many might no longer make those purchases if they see support dropped from these older tables. FarSight needs to do some serious customer service here, to keep that trust with its customers. So please, don't let them off the hook but at the same time, don't criticize for what they have yet to do. If in 3 months there still hasn't been any improvements, then derision might be warranted. FarSight_Matt is the person to communicate with here on the forum as well as Flippy Floppy. Those two have really pushed for graphical upgrades, especially on Monster Bash (which is why I brought it up to Bobby), so that's the table to watch and those are the guys to pressure.

As for Arcooda, it's simply a matter of time. There wasn't enough for FarSight to complete the missing tables before the deadline, and since they weren't complete, they can't sell. Arcooda is in a licensing window that the Nintendo Switch couldn't climb through, and I suspect that window closed a few months back, before this WMS license loss was all made public. Don't apply Arcooda's situation to what FarSight can do within their own app.

 

[MadAxeMan]

Not to sound all doom and gloom ~ I'm sure the WMS tables will still benefit from core game improvements, like ball physics and lighting etc

Yes, shutyertrap, Monster Bash!

 

[FarSight_Matt]

It is true, listen again, listen how he skirts around it, they will still support the tables (not the same thing)
I'm pretty positive their license agreement excludes any further development.
Like WMS are gonna be absolutely complete jerks like this, making Farsight completely strip clean (we're already seeing it), and yet let them continue development.
And for Farsight's part, why would they devote further resources that will generate $0 revenue (as in a big ZERO) on top of no longer being licensed to do so.
They are a business first and foremost, with the intent to make money, they have no choice but to move on.

From the Arcoodia FAQ site:
Will you support Arcooda Pinball Arcade after 30th June?
Yes and no. We will continue to support Arcooda software and Arcooda Cabinet integration. However, we have lost the Williams/Bally license and no further development will be occurring on the Williams/Bally products.

We're going get what is currently available, and after June 30th, that will be that.

I still have my list of things I want to fix, when I'm not so busy I still plan to chip those away.

 

[WesReviews]

Well yeah, but the reason they spent there money on a pinball machine is because they were enlightened by TPA

It was TPA that inspired me to want to own my own machine.

I'd never even looked for pinball tables or anything at Craigslist before, but I figured why not and I did a local search where I found the beautiful Gottlieb Monte Carlo that is sitting in my game room today.

 

[BostonBuckeye]

I still have my list of things I want to fix, when I'm not so busy I still plan to chip those away.

FarSight Matt, Can you check and see if there are still plans to emulate Gorgar, Firepower, Genie and Black Hole. Thanks.

 

[Locksley]

It was TPA that inspired me to want to own my own machine.

I'd never even looked for pinball tables or anything at Craigslist before, but I figured why not and I did a local search where I found the beautiful Gottlieb Monte Carlo that is sitting in my game room today.

Truth be told I haven't wholly let go of the idea of owning an Arcooda Pin-Cab if the price is lower than I expect. There is not really any space here but I'll make space! And I wouldn't even consider any table or even be thinking about pinball as much as I do if it where not for TPA.

And and get the emulation going for Gorgar would be great, really like that game (kind of a SS fan..... eh, in a non german way… eh… uh... what?!).

 

[MattW]

Since this is a speculation thread, I will give my two cents.

The timing of the Switch release and abrupt retraction with the license pull is surely not coincidental. We may never know what specific thing or things set them off, but it is a no-brainer that Farsight did not properly check before releasing the Switch version. I think the WMS IP holder is fed up with Farsight management ineptness to the point where they are willing to leave money on the table at least in the short term. So much release related confusion and nonsense across platforms over the years from Farsight.

Don't get me wrong, the table recreations themselves are labors of love and I find the physics and playability mostly excellent, in my mind clearly the best option available for old school pinball fans. VPX table recreations are amazing volunteer efforts but no match for Farsight's efforts. I have bought each season without hesitation and I will likely continue as long as Farsight stays in business. But let's be honest - everything outside of the tables themselves has been a disaster in the software. Terrible UI, features horribly broken or never working, simple things left unaddressed for years, promises not kept. And I do take some offense that unlike competitors like PinballFX they have taken NO action to reach out and cater to their hardcore base. It would be so easy to just do a few simple things. As a company, they are getting what they deserve in my opinion with so many management missteps.

On Arcooda, with the software I am hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. Even though they have drawn the line in the sand in terms of features and tables due to time, this has all the hallmarks of a rush/incomplete job - and with Farsight doing the software work - we know all too well what to expect given their history. I will be thrilled if it works as advertised but won't be surprised at all if it is full debacle that takes forever or never gets addressed. Arcooda will get my $149 none-the-less just for the real cabinet backglass support and if that ends up getting screwed up I at least went into it with eyes wide open. For their hardware, seems like that will drag on unreleased for at least a year beyond their planned date and maybe never see the light of day at least in any volume. It is already way way late. Especially with Farsight having every reason to mostly or completely ignore the software side after June 30th. It would fit their pattern. Gotta feel bad for Arcooda getting screwed by the licensing pull, especially if it was due to Farsight ineptness.

Matt

 

[Plungemaster]

I can not believe when you rent a license for years, on numerous platforms, and you make a mistake by bringing it on a new platform the holders instantly stop the complete license.

That does not make any sense.

 

[shutyertrap]

I can not believe when you rent a license for years, on numerous platforms, and you make a mistake by bringing it on a new platform the holders instantly stop the complete license.

That does not make any sense.

Agreed. This was a decision made by WMS probably many months ago. My best guess is it was probably made soon after that last contract extension nearly 2 years ago.

 

[chinzman93]

I suspect Stern has a hand in this:

1) Farsight cab support seemed to be progressing nicely. The video of the Virtuapin that was posted at one of the shows plus I recall a post from Farsight indicating they solved the keyhole effect in the engine would seem to confirm that. Then it suddenly stopped. Probably when they struck a deal with Arcooda.
2) Ravarcade had a working version of head tracking with DX9 that seems similar to the Kinect solution used with Arcooda. If a community member could get this working, I can only imagine what Farsight could do.
3) I believe Bobby indicated in the interview that he thought an announcement would come sometime after the license expired.
4) Arcooda has said that Stern does not wish to be part of the Arcooda product.

My guess is when Stern was approached about this and saw how far (good) things had gotten said "No F&#KING way!" and reached out to Scientific Gaming to get a deal to buy the WMS pinball property contingent on killing the Farsight license. But I am also trying to connect Gary Stern to JFK and Roswell so take that with a grain of salt....

 

[shutyertrap]

I suspect Stern has a hand in this:

1) Farsight cab support seemed to be progressing nicely. The video of the Virtuapin that was posted at one of the shows plus I recall a post from Farsight indicating they solved the keyhole effect in the engine would seem to confirm that. Then it suddenly stopped. Probably when they struck a deal with Arcooda.
2) Ravarcade had a working version of head tracking with DX9 that seems similar to the Kinect solution used with Arcooda. If a community member could get this working, I can only imagine what Farsight could do.
3) I believe Bobby indicated in the interview that he thought an announcement would come sometime after the license expired.
4) Arcooda has said that Stern does not wish to be part of the Arcooda product.

My guess is when Stern was approached about this and saw how far (good) things had gotten said "No F&#KING way!" and reached out to Scientific Gaming to get a deal to buy the WMS pinball property contingent on killing the Farsight license. But I am also trying to connect Gary Stern to JFK and Roswell so take that with a grain of salt....

That's some straight up conspiracy thinking you got going there. I like it.

 

[chinzman93]

That's some straight up conspiracy thinking you got going there. I like it.

I just listened to the latest podcast. While I am hoping for Zen......I am going to double-down on the Stern Conspiracy!

While I am not a fan of Stern...he isn't an idiot. Being able to keep a pinball company open during the down times (decades) is no small feat. I think this purchase could be part of future thinking. Let's face it....IF he was able to pickup the digital library of WMS in combination with what he already has (Stern and Data East), he would essentially have 95% of the pinball library that most would care about. Considering where the technology currently is, where it will be in a couple of years, and the fact that he already makes everything else physical required, he could almost immediately partner with a development company to produce a digital cabinet game for vendors (working coin slots) and private owners with limited space for a MANY games. The biggest draw back to arcades, vendors, and private owners is the floor space required to have games. This would address that and he can still sell to the people that have 10 or 20 new games....because now that can have 1 spot for the 100 or so that they can't make room for, but would reserve one spot for.....but that would mean this never gets out in an affordable form for the Average Joe.......so I am still pulling for Zen....but I am sure I will be disappointed!

Where's my tin-foil hat?

 

[shogun00]

Stern buying the WMS pinball catalog wouldn't be too far fetched IMO. There are quite a few titles that they could make sequels to and would be quite profitable. For example, a sequel to Black Knight, High Speed, Attack From Mars, and Medieval Madness.

 

[Pinballwiz45b]

Stern buying the WMS pinball catalog wouldn't be too far fetched IMO. There are quite a few titles that they could make sequels to and would be quite profitable. For example, a sequel to Black Knight, High Speed, Attack From Mar, and Medieval Madness.

Last I heard, I think Steve's doing an unlicensed game, and Elvira 3 is due up. Then again, we have CGC doing remakes of AFM, MM, and the rumored MB. So Zen is still very much in the running for a digital license.

Also, wouldn't a physical pinball license differ from digital?

 

[WesReviews]

% of likelihood, IMO...

Scientific Games (squatting/no digital pinball) - 40%
Scientific Games (finding someone to do digital pinball) - 30%
Zen Pinball - 20%
The Stern Conspiracy - 9%
Smaller company obtaining the license - 1%

While Stern HAS to have the WMS library on their radar to some degree, if there were even a slight chance that Stern would be obtaining that library, I don't think there would have been an announcement of "The End" of the Williams/Bally stuff. That catalog would have just changed hands behind the scenes, or maybe Stern would have issued a press release and all the tables would remain available in TPA without interruption. But that's not what happened, so I don't see them buying the library, unfortunately.

 

[Crawley]

I suspect Stern has a hand in this:

1) Farsight cab support seemed to be progressing nicely. The video of the Virtuapin that was posted at one of the shows plus I recall a post from Farsight indicating they solved the keyhole effect in the engine would seem to confirm that. Then it suddenly stopped. Probably when they struck a deal with Arcooda.

This was probably my video from the Chicago Expo years ago. I spoke with Norman a little bit about it at that time and what you see in the video is what he refereed to as a "hack job" - which it really was. Any time you finished a game the menu would display which you couldn't do anything with the menu using the VirtualPin controls. Norman had to go over to a laptop that was connected to the VirtualPin and reset it. So I'm pretty sure the game was just running off of Farsights laptop, rather than the VirtualPin computer, and the video was just being pipped in to the VirtualPin cabinet display and using their flippers as inputs.

It did have a blackglass so not sure how that was done (maybe the VirtualPin computer was displaying that). But Norman did say the whole thing was put together the night before. Basically they just made the TPA camera hold a birds-eye view over the playfield.

So at that point in time it seemed more of a proof-of-concept than actual work being done to have an integrated cabinet feature.

 

[shutyertrap]

To piggyback in the above, even Arcooda was fooled by how far along FarSight was with cabinet view. From what I understand (but can’t recall the source) Arcooda thought all that was going to be needed were a few tweaks and the game would run. Instead it was a major task, which is why it’s taken a year plus to be ready. That being said, what is being offered now is no rush job and FarSight was tasked with certain improvements and form functions they might not ever have otherwise tackled. These things are good for the future of TPA, just sucks it won’t be for WMS tables anymore.