Physics of Zen Pinball

[Jeff Strong]

Hmm, I don't know. It may well be that the flippers are closer together than it is the norm

They're definitely a lot closer together in Zen than they are in real life tables.

Check out these pics to compare:

The Addams Family:

Terminator 2:

The Twilight Zone:

 

[Jeff Strong]

Now compare those to......

Sorcerer's Lair:

Spiderman:

Ghost Rider:

 

[Fungi]

Wow. Definitely a difference. But it's often been stated that the Zen approach was to let the players have fun, as opposed to the real life machines where they are supposed to make money. Too bad that after about a half hour on the first ball in Ms. Splosionman, I'm bored.

 

[Kaoru]

Oh, I never doubted that! However I just don't feel that it makes the tables any easier. If anything it just adds another death trap. There were a number of occasions in which the ball got caught between the flippers, bouncing back and forth between their tips while you're trying to shoot it upwards... but ultimately went down the drain. This happens very often when the ball comes from the return lanes and (sometimes inexplicably) slows down just before reaching the flipper. Actually the rule seems to be once the Zen ball begins to slow down you're in for trouble.

I can like a racing sim just as much as an arcade racer, and that's how I'm gonna view the two different companies approach to pinball.

True. In the end I don't think that the ball has to act just as it would in real life. I spend a good part of the early to mid-90s playing the Pinball Dreams series and it doesn't have an especially realistic ball either. But you quickly got a feel for it and could always estimate where it would go to when you shot it into a certain direction. There was just a consistency about it so that you could deal with it. Whereas the Zen ball mostly just manages to irritate me with its sudden speed ups and slow downs, not to mention its sometimes odd bouncing behaviour. And maybe that's the reason why I'm having trouble aiming and timing shots with it. I just can't find the "pattern". (Not to mention that it's somewhat hard to properly time a shot when the ball goes like whoooosh over the flipper.) And it's a real pity because the tables (or at least the Marvel ones) have some pretty cool and interesting designs and features.

But anyway... in short: The Zen ball doesn't necessarily have to be realistic, but it has to be consistent and reliable. And that's where it's lacking.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Wow. Definitely a difference. But it's often been stated that the Zen approach was to let the players have fun, as opposed to the real life machines where they are supposed to make money. Too bad that after about a half hour on the first ball in Ms. Splosionman, I'm bored.

Yeah, it just makes it too boring for me, which is too bad because I like the look of their tables. One of my favorite aspects of pinball is the battle to control the ball and keep it from getting past the flippers, and they've essentially removed that and the ball is way too easy to control .....so as BB would say, "the thrill is gone" for me, lol.

 

[Pinballfan69]

Funny I noticed back when I was playing pinball consistently I did notice that the flippers were getting wider and wider with every new pinball machine coming out. I though it was ridiculous as I would lose many balls straight down the center. plus the tables were starting to get pricey just to play. Some were a $1 for 3 balls. That's when I stopped playing pinball altogether. Not just pinball but other arcade games as well. To me it wasn't fun anymore to shell in $10-20 (exaggeration? yes maybe) in and hour of play time.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Funny I noticed back when I was playing pinball consistently I did notice that the flippers were getting wider and wider with every new pinball machine coming out. I though it was ridiculous as I would lose many balls straight down the center. plus the tables were starting to get pricey just to play. Some were a $1 for 3 balls. That's when I stopped playing pinball altogether. Not just pinball but other arcade games as well. To me it wasn't fun anymore to shell in $10-20 (exaggeration? yes maybe) in and hour of play time.

I don't think the flippers have gotten wider over time. It's actually kinda the opposite. Some of the old EM's had the widest gaps, and now the newer Sterns have a smaller gap than those pics I posted above (but still not as small as Zen's). I was playing Stern's Batman DK the other day and I played for like 45 minutes on 1 credit (kept winning replays). There were still a credit or two left on the machine that I didn't have time to play, so the newer machines are definitely easier than the oldies, especially since the newer ones have longer ball saves, more kickbacks, it's easier to get extra balls/replays etc.

 

[Pinballfan69]

I don't think the flippers have gotten wider over time. It's actually kinda the opposite. Some of the old EM's had the widest gaps, and now the newer Sterns have a smaller gap than those pics I posted above (but still not as small as Zen's). I was playing Stern's Batman DK the other day for the first time and I played for like 45 minutes on 1 credit (kept winning replays). There were still a credit or two left on the machine that I didn't have time to play, so the newer machines are definitely easier than the oldies, especially since the newer ones have longer ball saves, more kickbacks, it's easier to get extra balls/replays etc.

Well Maybe I was trying to make and excuse for not playing Pinball since the 90s. lol It's more of the price then for me. $1- 1.50 per game is a bit much at that time.

 

[shutyertrap]

I always had a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of the center drain pin. Earthshaker had one, and letting the ball go straight down the center without flipping or nudging took every ounce of control from me to just let the ball bounce and then flip the flipper. I know those were an operator option to install, as then I'd get really screwed up when I came across a table that didn't have the pin!

What I'm gonna be very curious to see with TPA, especially when Whirlwind get made, is to see if the ball has more weight. In PBHOF, the ball would glide across Whirlwind's Skyway Toll even with weak shots. I know on the real pin that ball came right back down the ramp more often than not. That is something I really like about Zen's physics, the weight of the ball.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I like Zen's weight too.....just wish the rubber was a bit more bouncy all around to make the ball control more realistic. ....but then a lot of people would complain that it's too hard, so they probably don't want to tweak it too much. Thing is, we don't have to pump quarters into these tables, so who cares if the rounds are a little shorter. The extra challenge is what makes me love real pinball and want to keep playing......but what they should really do is offer two different physics settings: arcade and simulation, with separate leaderboards for each. Then everyone would be happy

 

[ND3G]

what they should really do is offer two different physics settings: arcade and simulation, with separate leaderboards for each. Then everyone would be happy

Maybe I am just a pinball snob but the way I see it, pinball is a real game that exists in the physical world, some programmers are able to adequately approximate the physics of the game and some are less successful. I can't imagine why anyone would want to play a pinball game that purposely fails to mimic proper physics.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Maybe I am just a pinball snob but the way I see it, pinball is a real game that exists in the physical world, some programmers are able to adequately approximate the physics of the game and some are less successful. I can't imagine why anyone would want to play a pinball game that purposely fails to mimic proper physics.

I agree. I'm just saying that since a lot of people enjoy Zen's games as they are now, so it'd be nice if they'd offer another physics mode for the of us that want a more realistic experience.....that way they'd. Offer something for everyone.

 

[Daniel Osborne]

Well I had a few moreover goes on zen again today, but it's infuriating beyond belief. The ball stops dead in its tracks, doesn't bounce, is way too inconsistent and won't go up ramps often enough. I'm done with it, it's just not enjoyable for me anymore, it's been annoying me for a while, but today was the final straw, i just can't get on with it.

 

[ND3G]

Well I had a few moreover goes on zen again today, but it's infuriating beyond belief. The ball stops dead in its tracks, doesn't bounce, is way too inconsistent and won't go up ramps often enough. I'm done with it, it's just not enjoyable for me anymore, it's been annoying me for a while, but today was the final straw, i just can't get on with it.

Yeah, I feel your pain. It is too bad because Zen (FX) has the potential to be a really great game.

 

[DrainoBraino]

I love Zen pinball physics. Sure it's not realistic and the physics are different for sure, but once you adapt it's great. I like the fact that the ball is heavy and the flippers really grip the ball. Trapping and passing is easy.

The thing I dont like is that all the games have slightly different physics. "Mars" has almost realistic physics, you pinball lovers should check it out.

 

[Tabe]

Well I had a few moreover goes on zen again today, but it's infuriating beyond belief. The ball stops dead in its tracks, doesn't bounce, is way too inconsistent and won't go up ramps often enough. I'm done with it, it's just not enjoyable for me anymore, it's been annoying me for a while, but today was the final straw, i just can't get on with it.

For me, it's the backspin with the ball reversing direction that kills it. It's a pinball on a smooth surface, not a cue ball on felt. The other stuff - ball is too heavy, refuses to go up ramps, and the like - are also among the reasons I stopped playing it. I'll try Zen 2 when it comes out but I'm not holding my breath.

Tabe

 

[Jeff Strong]

I have a feeling Zen 2's physics are going to be a lot like Pinball FX 2's physics, so I probably won't play it much either......but honestly, I could probably live with the physics if they just moved the flippers apart to a more realistic distance, then it would at least feel a little more like real pinball.

 

[Moon Jump]

For me the physics in the game feel like if every ball in the game was a Power Ball. They go way too fast sometimes. They have gotten better between FX1 and FX2 but I find it odd how with some games you can't do post passes and others are fine. I've also had issues on a few tables like Paranormal. If I try to shoot a ball up the right ramp after it kicks out of the middle of the table and onto the left flipper I can never make the shot, but if I stop the ball, cradle it and then shoot it then it's fine. You'd think with the already rolling from the kick out that it would have enough speed to make it up the ramp but it always comes screaming back down to me.

I wonder if the "new" Zen 2 on the PS3 is using the physics from Pinball FX2 or if their updated from FX2. Hopefully they'll issue a patch to the 360 version along with the new Avengers tables. I can't wait to get my hands on World War Hulk.

 

[shutyertrap]

Just got back from Vegas, so of course I visited the Pinball Hall of Fame. Do you know how many times I caught the ball just like in Zen? Let's just say it was A LOT!! Know how many times a ball bounced halfway up the playfield like it was doing in Farsight's version of TOTAN? Zero. Even on tables with brand new rubber. I came away with the impression that Zen, with their Marvel tables, is really not that far off the mark with their physics. I've downloaded but haven't had the time to play the PS3 versions that Farsight is offering, so I can only comment on the iPad version. Just saying, real life ramps are a ***** to get up, Funhouse is WAY harder in person than the Williams collection version, and that Pinball Circus table that only 2 were made of (bummer for Williams) was really really cool!

BTW...anybody ever play Orbiter? My 6 year old and I were laughing our heads off trying to play that table! We had no idea what was going on, the ball moves in very odd ways due to the bathtub like playfield, and it was just plain odd having a ball go behind your flippers and roll back forward so long as you leave them in the flipped up position. There's a table that no way in hell will ever be able to be recreated virtually.

 

[superballs]

Most of the time I play TPA, the ball bounce seems fine. I mean, if it comes down an orbit from near the top from a stop (ball reaches apex and comes back down without being forced down), it seems to only ride up to near the top of the kickers and sometimes roll over them. If you fling a shot around the orbit and it comes back down with extra speed, then yeah it bounces up quite a bit higher.

I agree that the ball is in fact bouncier than real life but it's not that far out of whack. I think some of the flipper mechanics can be worked on a bit. I do find it easier to do a live catch in real life. In fact it's one of the skills i'm quite good at, as far as the timing and everything go. I really find that some of the containing and passing in multiball needs to be worked on, it's nearly impossible to give that little "flick" to send one ball up just a bit so you can do a post transfer with the other one.

Pro Pinball is a great simulation but the physics off the flippers can be a bit quirky too. And the kickers are way too sensitive. I've actually gone back and installed all 4 games and played them all the past few games. Strange, The Web used to be one of my favorites but it suffers from super-nudging, still fun though. Timeshock is still my favorite of the bunch, can't wait to put a bit more time into that one. Big Race USA is great, and Fantastic Journey seems to finally have all aspects of the physics nailed down, except them damn kickers. The ball barely has to touch them.

In PinballFX2, I can pull off 6 Death Saves every ball. The Wolverine table even quotes "CLEVER!" whenever you do it. Just lift the flipper and BLAM out it pops.

In all the time i've given TPA, i've....ALMOST....done one on Black Hole and that's the closest I've gotten.
I love the Wolverine table and Spiderman and a couple of the core tables. But overall I like TPA much better. In fact, i bought Pinball FX2 to tide me over until it was released.