Physics of Zen Pinball

[Sinistar]

Downloaded the demo for Zen Pinball a week ago. No comparison to TPA . Physics? just aim gravity into the middle of the bottom , and tell the targets to sprout numbers when hit . The ball ghosting effect is cool, but not enough to forgive the rest of the cookie cutter design work . They animate one creature and this is supposed to make it a state of the art pinball game? Im really suprised people are buying this game with or without Marvel Comics licensing it's shoddy at best. All the ramps I saw seemed to copy some of the real pinball tables from TPA , nothing original , it's very sad that FarSight gets overlooked for that game by anybody.

 

[shutyertrap]

Downloaded the demo for Zen Pinball a week ago. No comparison to TPA . Physics? just aim gravity into the middle of the bottom , and tell the targets to sprout numbers when hit . The ball ghosting effect is cool, but not enough to forgive the rest of the cookie cutter design work . They animate one creature and this is supposed to make it a state of the art pinball game? Im really suprised people are buying this game with or without Marvel Comics licensing it's shoddy at best. All the ramps I saw seemed to copy some of the real pinball tables from TPA , nothing original , it's very sad that FarSight gets overlooked for that game by anybody.

First I'd say, don't base your judgement of Zen just off of the demo table (what, Sorcerers Lair?). Second, the Marvel tables are in my opinion WAY better than the plain jane Zen tables. Third, there is a certain weight to the balls in Zen that I find quite nice versus the sometimes floaty feeling of TPA. I mainly notice this with ramp shots where in TPA the ball sometimes seems to magically make it up the ramp despite my week hit, while Zen can be almost unforgiving.

As for TPA getting overlooked, well Zen has been out for a few years now. I think a year from now, it's not even going to be a contest anymore. Especially since Zen is pretty slow with putting out tables (and they're not proven hits), and TPA has a vast library of classics to filter through for years to come.

 

[Richard B]

I bought the Avengers set, and it is dramatically improved from earlier tables, both in presentation and table design. However, the physics are unchanged, and there is also the annoying need to look at the DMD for instructions, as the voice overs are only for story and atmosphere; they don't tell you what to do, or what you should be aiming for. This can result in a drain, as the amount of text is usually pretty copious. Still, I'd recommend the set, as well as the other Marvel tables.
If you use the sales and specials app on XBOX Live Marketplace, they are currently offering the classic pack (the 4 original tables) for 400 msp. A good value, although I don't much enjoy their non-licensed tables (except for Excalibur and Epic Quest), and this pack is especially mediocre, as it was their first attempt at making tables and, by their own admission, is pretty lackluster.

 

[Kaoru]

there is a certain weight to the balls in Zen that I find quite nice versus the sometimes floaty feeling of TPA. I mainly notice this with ramp shots where in TPA the ball sometimes seems to magically make it up the ramp despite my week hit, while Zen can be almost unforgiving.

Actually this is one of the reasons why I find the Zen ball so irritating. All the time it feels as if I'm playing with ping pong ball (and the "clack clack" sounds add a lot to that, which give you the feel as if everything on the table is made out of light plastic), but once it reaches a ramp it suddenly gains a weight of tons and rolls back down.

They animate one creature and this is supposed to make it a state of the art pinball game? Im really suprised people are buying this game with or without Marvel Comics licensing it's shoddy at best. All the ramps I saw seemed to copy some of the real pinball tables from TPA , nothing original

Being fair however, copying original tables is exactly what FarSight does. But at least this is what their game is supposed and expected to be doing while Zen produces somewhat bla "inspired by"-tables.

And this no silly FarSight vs Zen-fanboyism on my part (You know, as if Zen and FarSight were the only ones who ever made pinball video games.), those Zen tables just have plain flat gameplay by any standards. I don't have any problem with people enjoying those... but why anyone would think of them as the best pinball games ever created seriously baffles me.

 

[Pinballfan69]

Finally after a couple of months replaying to this thread. I find TPA balls way too 'floaty' for my liking so I'm finding I enjoy Zen pinball much more. It jsut feels mor elike the physics of real pinball.


I did play LOTR and Pirates of the carribean this week and aside from the outlane drains (Which annoy me for a table that cost almost $2 to play), the ball seems more weighty. Personally I think ZEn should have their bumpers (Geez I forgot what they call the bumpers around the flippers) more sensitive. That way It would make the tables feel more like the balls are out of control. Tht should give pinball purists the sense of having to work for scores much likie real p[inball.


As it is it's all about personal taste. I enjoy Zen more than TPA but that is not to say i don't like TPA and wont play it all. I love pinball and to have tables I've played growing up in the arcades recreated even in it's virtual form so much fun. Can't wait to dive into the new DLC Medieval etc. I've benn out of town so once I get back I'll play them but I think I still will go back to ZEn/Marvel more.

 

[Richard B]

(Geez I forgot what they call the bumpers around the flippers)

That would be the slingshots. There is no doubt that the ball is too bouncy around the flippers compared to a real machine, and you don't have as much control over the flippers, making the high-level stuff you see on PAPA videos impossible. The bounciness has apparently been improved in the latest update, and the latter is something all pinball programs have suffered, some arguing it is impossible to reproduce in digital format. However, some VP builders have made great strides in that direction.
One thing to remember is that physics adjustments on a game like this isn't just simply lowering a value so the ball is less bouncy. Every change you make could impact the physics elsewhere, so these adjustments should be made incrementally.

 

[Jay]

Zen just issued an iOS update for their tables, mainly to add Fantastic Four, but they overhauled a lot more. Epic Quest feels much more real now. Much of the stuttering is gone on my iPad 3. I actually am hitting targets now, whereas before it seemed shots rarely would work.

One odd change though is that the DMD is now so tiny it's barely legible.

 

[mmmagnetic]

BTW...anybody ever play Orbiter? My 6 year old and I were laughing our heads off trying to play that table! We had no idea what was going on, the ball moves in very odd ways due to the bathtub like playfield, and it was just plain odd having a ball go behind your flippers and roll back forward so long as you leave them in the flipped up position. There's a table that no way in hell will ever be able to be recreated virtually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPvMCBQA1yw

Wow. And I thought Goin Nuts was weird... Just watching the video was pretty amusing! I mean, sure, it's a ridiculous gimmick, but what a funny gimmick it is!

 

[mmmagnetic]

Zen just issued an iOS update for their tables, mainly to add Fantastic Four, but they overhauled a lot more. Epic Quest feels much more real now. Much of the stuttering is gone on my iPad 3. I actually am hitting targets now, whereas before it seemed shots rarely would work.

One odd change though is that the DMD is now so tiny it's barely legible.

Considering the DMD: Did you remember setting it to "large" in the settings? I think it defaults to medium, so maybe that setting got lost after the update.

And wow, in Excalibur I can now hit the multiball-sideramp with the upper left flipper - something I don't think I have ever done before.

 

[Jeff Strong]

It sounds like they forgot to update the DMD with the new retina update for iOS.

 

[Jay]

Considering the DMD: Did you remember setting it to "large" in the settings?

Tried it, but it didn't change the display size. I think Jeff is right; it's probably a bug with the Retina display.

 

[shutyertrap]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPvMCBQA1yw

Wow. And I thought Goin Nuts was weird... Just watching the video was pretty amusing! I mean, sure, it's a ridiculous gimmick, but what a funny gimmick it is!

Yep, that video really captured how bug nuts that table is. And he's right, there's not much to do on it, but it oddly draws you back.

 

[Stormchild]

Didn't like Zen Pinball at all. Tried it once, then immediately deleted it.

 

[Pinballfan69]

Finally had a chance to play the new tables. Funhouse and Bride seem to have better physics IMO. Medieval Madness and Cirqus is way to 'Floaty' which is too bad for Medieval. I thought I would like that table as I did with the real one. There is no way to catch/trap the ball effectively without it bouncing so high off the flipper. Its just feels weird while Funhouse and Bride feel spot on and MM and CV doesn't quite 'feel' right.

Tried the other tables again. Am I seeing somethings change? The Physics feel much better than I remember.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Finally had a chance to play the new tables. Funhouse and Bride seem to have better physics IMO. Medieval Madness and Cirqus is way to 'Floaty' which is too bad for Medieval. I thought I would like that table as I did with the real one. There is no way to catch/trap the ball effectively without it bouncing so high off the flipper.

In MM, when the ball is screaming in towards you, dead flipper passes are your friend, and they make ball control pretty easy on that table. You can't use the same trapping techniques as Zen because in Zen you can trap almost any ball no matter how fast it's coming in, which isn't very realistic at all.

 

[DrainoBraino]

And this no silly FarSight vs Zen-fanboyism on my part (You know, as if Zen and FarSight were the only ones who ever made pinball video games.), those Zen tables just have plain flat gameplay by any standards. I don't have any problem with people enjoying those... but why anyone would think of them as the best pinball games ever created seriously baffles me.

I am on the opposite side of the fence, my friend. I don't see how a pinball fan wouldn't like Zen pinball!

NO WAY the gameplay is "flat". These tables are fun as all get out and have serious depth. Which ones did you play? I suggest you try Earth Defense, Marvel Blade, and Epic Quest. Street Fighter is cool too, it has an awesome fighting system.

 

[Pinballfan69]

In MM, when the ball is screaming in towards you, dead flipper passes are your friend, and they make ball control pretty easy on that table. You can't use the same trapping techniques as Zen because in Zen you can trap almost any ball no matter how fast it's coming in, which isn't very realistic at all.

Oh I know about the passing especially around that right in lane etc. It's the left orbit that annoys me. Even when not coming down fast I hold the left flipper to try and trap ir - the ball bounces and floats straight up and towards the the left outlanes. I can nudge/bump etc but most of the time I nearly lose the ball because of that. That's when I say it's too floaty. Otherwise Medieval is my favorite of the new bunch. Compared to funhouse and Pinbot it's way too 'floaty/bouncy' for me. Too bad

 

[zsciaeount]

I have to step into this debate, because I'm baffled by what I see here.

I own 14 pinball machines and play real pinball every single day. I own many of the games that are re-created on TPA, so I have a direct comparison to evaluate the physics of both TPA and Zen. I can say, beyond any shadow of a doubt, Zen has the more realistic physics by far.

TPA's physics are very floaty, and there are tons of things with it that annoy the living crap out of me, like the ball bouncing halfway up the playfield from a raised flipper and the odd moments where a poorly-hit ball will suddenly correct course and accelerate up a ramp (this is especially bad on TPA's CFTBL). The inability to perform drop catches and live catches in TPA is maddening, since they are critical for control in real-life pinball. Cradle separations don't work, post transfers are too difficult, and alley passes are too easy. The flippers seem to have no elasticity and the ball seems to have no spin in TPA. That means that you can forget about controlling the ball, and are relegated to a run-and-gun style of play. That's fine for games like Black Hole and Medieval Madness, but it simply kills the gameplay on games like TOTAN and RBION, which require more control and stop-and-go play.

Zen, on the other hand, has much more realistic physics. You can drop catch, you can live catch, you can cradle separate, you can flick pass, post transfer. Basically, if you can do it in real life, you can do it in Zen. Case in point is the kickout scoops. Take, for instance, Epic Quest in Zen. It fires the ball hard at the flipper, but you can control it with a drop catch, and the ball rolls up the flipper just into the inlane and stops. That's more or less how I can control the kickouts on my real TZ, TAF, MM, WW, NGG and FH machines, for instance. What about TPA? Let's look at TOM. The ball fires out of the scoop, and no matter what you do, the ball will bounce crazily off the flipper halfway up the playfield. And, if it gets near a ramp, it will inexplicably roll up and around the ramp!

As for those who say the ball is too heavy and spins too much on Zen, I ask you: have you ever held a real pinball in your hands?? It's a steel ball bearing that is very heavy for its size. It also spins quite a bit during real gameplay, and that spin is critical to controlling the ball and selecting shots. Zen may feel "off" to some of you, because the physics are much more realistic than any simulation that has come before it.

As far as I'm concerned, there's room in town for both games. I wish the flipper spacing on Zen were a little wider, and that the nudging on the iPad were a bit better. It's great to see Farsight re-creating the real pins of yesteryear, and I applaud their attention to detail in terms of playfield modeling and software emulation (although why does every machine in TPA show a credit dot?). If TPA could have Zen's physics, life would be good. As it stands, as someone with unfettered access to the real thing, I much prefer Zen to TPA.

 

[bavelb]

Id argue those advanced techniques are far too easy in Zen.

I also don't experience the balls automatically going up ramps. But too eacht their own, I find TPA is the simulation and Zen is the arcade game. I enjoy both, although I'm a bit more fanatic with TPA. For me TPA with a little less bounce on the flippers and a tad more weight on the ball on some tables and it would be perfect.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Id argue those advanced techniques are far too easy in Zen.

I also don't experience the balls automatically going up ramps. But too eacht their own, I find TPA is the simulation and Zen is the arcade game. I enjoy both, although I'm a bit more fanatic with TPA. For me TPA with a little less bounce on the flippers and a tad more weight on the ball on some tables and it would be perfect.

Completely agree.