Zen Pinball FX3 Williams Pinball Volume One

[xAzatothx]

Sadly I can’t play the beta as it crashes on my system. The Zen community manager has been very helpful though and forwarded dump file to developers for me.
i worry a bit about the physics when Tarek reports huge scores again.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Ah ok yeah. I completely overlooked 'However' lol. I did notice that too.

No worries. Glad we’re on the same page.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Sadly I can’t play the beta as it crashes on my system. The Zen community manager has been very helpful though and forwarded dump file to developers for me.
i worry a bit about the physics when Tarek reports huge scores again.

What video card do you have? Did this help at all?

http://www.digitalpinballfans.com/showthread.php/13630-FIX-FX3-Crashing-or-Choppy-on-Your-Laptop

 

[Wapcaplet]

I absolutely want unaltered tables as my #1 choice, but that's me as a fan and not as a person running a business. So long as there is actual thought put behind a decision and it not just being a knee jerk reaction, I respect that.

Zen has a history of making decisions that screw people over, so forgive me if I'm not as willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

1) The Pinball FX2 EULA fiasco. FX2 was released on Steam without a EULA, but it was added later and everyone was forced to accept it to continue playing the game. If you bought tables before the EULA was created, and you refused to accept the EULA when it was implemented, you were locked out of your purchases with no refunds. Tough luck, huh?

2) The horrible Steam FX2-to-FX3 transition. Zen delisted FX2 and all of its DLC from Steam without any advance notice when FX3 was released -- for all of Farsight's sins, at least they gave us ample warning that the WMS tables were going away. Although most of the tables made the transition to FX3, the big loss was the South Park table pack, which was not released on FX3 because of licensing issues. (The Ms. Splosion Man table and Plants vs. Zombies table were also left behind with no option to purchase and no warning they were being dropped.) People pleaded with Zen to make the DLC available again, even for a brief period, so those who already had FX2 in their libraries could buy them, but Zen flat-out refused.

3) FX3 introduced new table packs that combined tables that were available individually for FX2. For people who owned only one or two of the tables in a pack, they had to purchase the entire pack and rebuy tables they had already paid for to get that missing table. This is still a problem today. Zen's solution was to provide coupons for owners of partial table packs, but they were only valid for a few weeks after FX3's release. Steam has a feature where you can "complete a collection" that automatically discounts a pack of games/DLC if you own any of them, and Zen is either unwilling or unable to implement this for their DLC.

4) As mentioned above, Zen has a history of removing tables without warning when their licenses expire. The other infamous example besides those listed above is the Zen Super League Football table set. They were removed almost 2 years ago with no advance notice when the licenses expired. Zen claimed at the time they would bring back the Zen Football Club table by itself. We're still waiting, nearly 2 years later. What happens if they lose a secondary license on a WMS table in the future -- will it just disappear from stores too? I'd rather not reward behavior like this, but if I don't buy the tables when they're released, who knows how long they'll be available?

Don't get me wrong -- I want Zen to succeed with the WMS license, as that's a much better alternative than no WMS tables being released at all. If they need to edit the tables, so be it. Just be honest with us about what you're doing and don't pass off these edits as accurate digital translations. I hope that the publicity and spotlight generated by the WMS license will mean that their business practices become a bit more consumer friendly, but I need to be convinced first, given their track record.

 

[Jamman39]

I think for every negative you listed there is an example of Zen going above and beyond for their customers. Things like making the upgrade from FX2 to FX3 free, which it absolutely didn't have to be. Being one of the very first developers/publishers to adapt Vita cross buy on PlayStation and setting a standard for other indies to do so. Making the transition between console generations free, something Pinball Arcade did not do. Creating a free cabinet mode, again something Pinball arcade fans had to pay ($150!) for.

 

[shutyertrap]

Zen has a history of making decisions that screw people over, so forgive me if I'm not as willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

1) The Pinball FX2 EULA fiasco. FX2 was released on Steam without a EULA, but it was added later and everyone was forced to accept it to continue playing the game. If you bought tables before the EULA was created, and you refused to accept the EULA when it was implemented, you were locked out of your purchases with no refunds. Tough luck, huh?

2) The horrible Steam FX2-to-FX3 transition. Zen delisted FX2 and all of its DLC from Steam without any advance notice when FX3 was released -- for all of Farsight's sins, at least they gave us ample warning that the WMS tables were going away. Although most of the tables made the transition to FX3, the big loss was the South Park table pack, which was not released on FX3 because of licensing issues. (The Ms. Splosion Man table and Plants vs. Zombies table were also left behind with no option to purchase and no warning they were being dropped.) People pleaded with Zen to make the DLC available again, even for a brief period, so those who already had FX2 in their libraries could buy them, but Zen flat-out refused.

3) FX3 introduced new table packs that combined tables that were available individually for FX2. For people who owned only one or two of the tables in a pack, they had to purchase the entire pack and rebuy tables they had already paid for to get that missing table. This is still a problem today. Zen's solution was to provide coupons for owners of partial table packs, but they were only valid for a few weeks after FX3's release. Steam has a feature where you can "complete a collection" that automatically discounts a pack of games/DLC if you own any of them, and Zen is either unwilling or unable to implement this for their DLC.

4) As mentioned above, Zen has a history of removing tables without warning when their licenses expire. The other infamous example besides those listed above is the Zen Super League Football table set. They were removed almost 2 years ago with no advance notice when the licenses expired. Zen claimed at the time they would bring back the Zen Football Club table by itself. We're still waiting, nearly 2 years later. What happens if they lose a secondary license on a WMS table in the future -- will it just disappear from stores too? I'd rather not reward behavior like this, but if I don't buy the tables when they're released, who knows how long they'll be available?

Don't get me wrong -- I want Zen to succeed with the WMS license, as that's a much better alternative than no WMS tables being released at all. If they need to edit the tables, so be it. Just be honest with us about what you're doing and don't pass off these edits as accurate digital translations. I hope that the publicity and spotlight generated by the WMS license will mean that their business practices become a bit more consumer friendly, but I need to be convinced first, given their track record.

1. Fiasco? Hyperbole much? 99.9% of us couldn’t have cared less about that. The number of people that actually read through ANY eula is so infinitesimal, and then you all freaked over a misunderstanding of what was written, thinking your data could be mined. Way to go Jacoby & Meyers.

2. I still have FX2 with all those tables, they didn’t disappear on me. If you’re complaining because you can’t still buy them, we’ll snooze you lose. And I’m sorry but compare Zen’s transition between platforms where every table I owned that could be transferred was, compared to TPA going from PS3 to PS4 and charging you for everything. And guess what, Zen did the same when they went from Zen Pinball to Zen 2.

3. I’ll grant you that this sucks, but perhaps there’s more to it than Zen just giving you the finger.

4. Again, I still have Super League and can play it. When it does come back to FX3 it’s only going to have the Zen team and none of the other clubs. Perhaps you’d like to negotiate with FIFA? Or maybe the license is just not financially feasible to renew. PvZ isn’t even Popcap’s to negotiate with, not was it available on all platforms. I don’t know the story behind Ms. Splosion Man or South Park, and while I’d like to play them in FX3, it’s not like they got removed from my computer with FX2.

5. Don’t mix FarSight’s mission statement of preserving pinball history with Zen acquiring the WMS license. Saying that Zen does not have consumer friendly policies is laughable, and comes off as nothing but sour grapes.

 

[Wapcaplet]

I think for every negative you listed there is an example of Zen going above and beyond for their customers. Things like making the upgrade from FX2 to FX3 free, which it absolutely didn't have to be.

On the other hand, can you imagine the backlash Zen would have faced if they did make you rebuy all the tables after delisting FX2? I suspect this was done out of necessity, not out of generosity.

Being one of the very first developers/publishers to adapt Vita cross buy on PlayStation and setting a standard for other indies to do so. Making the transition between console generations free, something Pinball Arcade did not do.

That's all well and good, but it means nothing to PC users like me. I believe console players could still buy the discontinued tables for FX2/Zen Pinball 2 on older platforms (even if you didn't own the old platform) and import them to the newer ones. We PC users didn't have that option.

Creating a free cabinet mode, again something Pinball arcade fans had to pay ($150!) for.

Does Zen still require you to send them a photo of your pincab or monitor setup? They did require that once upon a time, which was totally ridiculous. I don't see a photo requirement listed on their cab request form, so if they've eliminated that, I'm glad they came to their senses.

 

[Jeff Strong]

All I can say is that after 6 years of TPA, this is the freshest breath of air I’ve had since 2012.

No offense, but it kinda feels like you’re just grasping at straws to try to cast doubt on Zen’s motives, business practices, etc. I admittedly haven’t paid all that much attention to them in recent years up until just recently (so I trust SYT’s opinion on this), but all the stuff you’re complaining about seems pretty trivial compared to what we’ve experienced with the former license holders.

I, for one, welcome our new pinball overlords.

 

[Wapcaplet]

1. Fiasco? Hyperbole much? 99.9% of us couldn’t have cared less about that. The number of people that actually read through ANY eula is so infinitesimal, and then you all freaked over a misunderstanding of what was written, thinking your data could be mined. Way to go Jacoby & Meyers.

No need for personal attacks. You missed the point about having an agreement forced upon you, regardless of the contents of the EULA. The point was that if you failed to agree, regardless of how harmless it was, you lose access to something you paid for. Again, just in case this wasn't clear: IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE AGREEMENT CONTAINED. You don't force a customer to agree to something after they paid for it, and take it away without a refund if they don't agree. That's not "Jacoby & Meyers"-ing. That's common sense.

2. I still have FX2 with all those tables, they didn’t disappear on me. If you’re complaining because you can’t still buy them, we’ll snooze you lose.

Then you agree it's not very customer-friendly. I have all the tables that were dropped, so I have no personal ill will on this matter, but a lot of people would have gladly thrown more money at Zen if they had either (1) given some advance notice or (2) let the tables be sold a few days after FX2 was pulled. I sure as hell gave Farsight a lot of money before they lost the WMS tables. Why didn't Zen allow others to do the same?

And I’m sorry but compare Zen’s transition between platforms where every table I owned that could be transferred was, compared to TPA going from PS3 to PS4 and charging you for everything. And guess what, Zen did the same when they went from Zen Pinball to Zen 2.

Again, PC user here. Console stuff has no benefit to me. That's why I'm a PC gamer -- so I don't have to rebuy everything when a new console generation comes out.

3. I’ll grant you that this sucks, but perhaps there’s more to it than Zen just giving you the finger.

When did I say that Zen is giving anyone the finger? Please don't put words in my mouth. An explanation for this would be nice, wouldn't you agree? Why the silence?

4. Again, I still have Super League and can play it. When it does come back to FX3 it’s only going to have the Zen team and none of the other clubs. Perhaps you’d like to negotiate with FIFA? Or maybe the license is just not financially feasible to renew. PvZ isn’t even Popcap’s to negotiate with, not was it available on all platforms. I don’t know the story behind Ms. Splosion Man or South Park, and while I’d like to play them in FX3, it’s not like they got removed from my computer with FX2.

You and I have all the tables. Good for us. We got lucky. I'm not asking Zen to keep every license in perpetuity, no matter the cost. All I'm asking is for Zen to WARN US if they're going to lose a license. They've never done that. Is that asking too much?

5. Don’t mix FarSight’s mission statement of preserving pinball history with Zen acquiring the WMS license. Saying that Zen does not have consumer friendly policies is laughable, and comes off as nothing but sour grapes.

My statement speaks for itself. If you can't see the concerns as genuine, then I fear you're losing impartiality.

 

[Wapcaplet]

All I can say is that after 6 years of TPA, this is the freshest breath of air I’ve had since 2012.

I agree. I'm genuinely hopeful about what Zen will do.

No offense, but it kinda feels like you’re just grasping at straws to try to cast doubt on Zen’s motives, business practices, etc. I admittedly haven’t paid all that much attention to them in recent years up until just recently (so I trust SYT’s opinion on this), but all the stuff you’re complaining about seems pretty trivial compared to what we’ve experienced with the former license holders.

I've paid a lot of attention to them and bought a lot of tables from them. I made that list so that people who are not aware of Zen's history (like yourself) will realize that they're not always going to act in your best interest, and usually they won't explain why. Sound familiar? We were all really supportive of Farsight and were willing to forgive some of their early problems once upon a time, remember?

Zen tends to blunder into things sometimes and then try to fix the problems with the loudest public outcry. They don't always succeed, for whatever reason. As long as we keep the pressure on when they do something wrong, I hope they'll fix it. But I'm too old to automatically assume this will happen.

 

[Jeff Strong]

I agree. I'm genuinely hopeful about what Zen will do.



I've paid a lot of attention to them and bought a lot of tables from them. I made that list so that people who are not aware of Zen's history (like yourself) will realize that they're not always going to act in your best interest, and usually they won't explain why. Sound familiar? We were all really supportive of Farsight and were willing to forgive some of their early problems once upon a time, remember?

Zen tends to blunder into things sometimes and then try to fix the problems with the loudest public outcry. They don't always succeed, for whatever reason. As long as we keep the pressure on when they do something wrong, I hope they'll fix it. But I'm too old to automatically assume this will happen.

Fair points.

I guess the big difference for me this time around is that pretty much everything I want is in the game already which demonstrates Zen’s professionalism and drive to me, whereas with Farsight I always felt dangled along by a carrot of hope for game features (multiplayer, tournament mode, adjustable physics, etc) that never materialized...and of course all the bugs, blunders, questionable decisions by management, etc...I could go on, but I won’t.

For that reason, I am more than willing to give Zen a healthy amount of slack.

I get what you’re saying and agree about calling them out where need be, which I have been and will continue to do regarding the physics for example. Like I said though, a lot of the stuff you mentioned seems pretty mild and not worth getting worked up over to me. I’m all about keeping them on their toes though.

I’ll let you guys be the ones to hash out Zen’s past since I’m not up on the details, but for me, the proof is in the pudding, and Zen is delivering it.

 

[shutyertrap]

For the record, I switched to PC a few years ago and benefited from Zen posting tables to Humble Bundle and knocking 75% off in a Steam winter sale. So again, treating customers right.

 

[Wapcaplet]

For that reason, I am more than willing to give Zen a healthy amount of slack.

I truly hope you're right. I'll be thrilled if they can keep up the progress they've made so far.

I get what you’re saying and agree about calling them out where need be, which I have been and will continue to do regarding the physics for example. Like I said though, a lot of the stuff you mentioned seems pretty mild and not worth getting worked up over to me. I’m all about keeping them on their toes though.

My personal concern is the license issue. Maybe [MENTION=134]shutyertrap[/MENTION] can ask Zen if they will give us some warning if they lose a license. If they confirm they'll give us a heads-up before delisting a table, I'll be a happy guy.

The EULA thing was really bad, IMHO, but I'm a big online rights nut (and a regular donator to the Electronic Frontier Foundation). I doubt we'll see a repeat of that, thank goodness.

I do appreciate that Zen is taking a second look at the censorship issues. Thanks for that, Zen.

The other things were minor, but Zen's responses bordered on tone-deaf. That's where the concern lies. Just talk to us and let us know why you're doing what you're doing, okay Zen? We want to give you our money. Don't make us second-guess that decision.

 

[shutyertrap]

Sure, I can pass that on about a little warning if a license is disappearing.

 

[wolfson]

I have all my FX2 tables ,ZEN gave me all my tables from FX2 to FX3 for free on XBOX1X , PS4 PRO and PC . I think only 6 tables didn`t come over , 2 South Parks , Street Fighter 2 ,Ninja Gaiden , Plants vs Zombies and ( Football Super League on PS4 ) and when I had my XBOX 360 and my PS3 , any tables I bought on these was ported for free to my XBOX1 and later to my XBOX1 S and then to my XBOX1X , and from my PS3 ported for free to my PS4 and to my PS4 PRO

 

[Jamman39]

Dudes got 13 posts to his name and seems to just be trying to derail a positive conversation..

 

[vfpcoder]

Does Zen still require you to send them a photo of your pincab or monitor setup? They did require that once upon a time, which was totally ridiculous. I don't see a photo requirement listed on their cab request form, so if they've eliminated that, I'm glad they came to their senses.

My VPCabs Vertigo came with FX2 and all of the (then current) Zen tables preinstalled. (VPCabs has a licensing deal with Zen.) About three months ago I decided to try out FX3 on the cab. All of the extant FX2 tables came over as promised, but the cabinet mode functionality did not. I then dutifully signed up for cabinet mode on FX3 and received back an email request for a picture of the cabinet. They said they wanted to make sure that the cabinet was being used for personal use only. I thought it was a strange request given the licensing deal with VPCabs, but sent them the picture anyway. I received back the free cabinet key the next day.

So, bottom line, they are still requesting a picture of the cabinet, but I have no real problem with providing it since the cabinet key is free.

 

[skyway73]

Screw the cigar. Let them concentrate on the physics first - we need the wild ball back!

Couldn't agree more

 

[kimkom]

Screw the cigar. Let them concentrate on the physics first - we need the wild ball back!

I am all for having the original table as it should be, but if you listen to the podcast with Mel the Zen chap, you can fully understand the reason why they need to do a bit of tinkering. Like he said they will look it at a later date. If they can't change the table going forward to include the cigar, etc. then we just need to live with it. At the end of the day we will get almost perfect sims (if the wild ball returns that is!)) of dozens and dozens of tables using the FX3 technology, and if you need to lose a cigar, cleavage or two then so be it. It is still close enough to claim it is preserving pinball.

Absolutely agree.

If a few minor edits here and there are necessary to comply with various legal issues, it's a small price to pay.

 

[kimkom]

I do like what they did with the ramps in this update. Definitely not as automatic anymore. Now if they can just tone down the nudging and bring back the wild ball, we'll be golden.

I had a short trial on FT last night and thought the ramps seemed a bit less 'auto'. Has that definitely been altered?