Flipper lag theory

[smbhax]

I'm still feeling the same old lag in 1080p.

 

[Tann]

I'm still feeling the same old lag in 1080p.

Weird. Monkeygrass on the 2.14 update thread makes the same statement than me:

"I don't know what they did to the lighting engine, but the performance improvements are noticable, for sure. Just ran at 1080 and it would appear that a lot, if not all, of the lag is gone. The ball lighting is completely different, much more visible at 1080 than the 720 I have been running at."

I play at 1080i on a CRT with and HDMI input, and clearly, the lag have been reduced a lot for me with this update.

It's like I rediscover the game. The most laggy tables in the past (ToTAN, ToM, MM) are ok now.

 

[ScotchYeti]

I have to agree, there is still a slight lag but much improved and finally playable. The tables look so much better in HD!

 

[Daniel Osborne]

I still play with the controller charge cable plugged in. Without this there's a terrible lag.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

I spent a good 4 hours playing last night, with my best friend who is also an old school pin-head. We both own PHOF on PS3, and he has refused to buy TPA due to the lag issue. Every time he comes over, we try to play TPA and he watches his balls go down the center drain a split-second second before he "flips". It drives him nuts, and I can totally understand why he wouldn't buy TPA as it currently performs. OR should I say - previously performed.

Until last night. I switched back from 720 to 1080, and what a difference. Like Tann has noticed, the whole game is smoother now. Even at 720, there was always some residual "stuttering" and frame drop, especially on the lower half of the playfield, and very noticeable during multi-balls in particular.

I set 2 new personal bests, and landed on my Top 4/5 list at least 8 times over the course of the night. My friend Jeff was playing like he does on PHOF and IRL (which is to say, kicking MAJOR ass). He said to me at one point "This is actually better looking and now, it plays and reacts better than PHOF!"

After several hours, and probably 12 different tables, I can say (for ME) this game is now totally playable at 1080. Major difference in the look and feel of the gameplay. And the new "real" pinball looks SICK.

Great job guys! Now... just give us some controller mapping - PLEASE!?!?!?!?!

 

[Tann]

The tables look so much better in HD!

Oh yeah. Technically, 720p is already HD, but TPA looks so much nicer in 1080i/p. A pure eye candy.

I still play with the controller charge cable plugged in. Without this there's a terrible lag.

Yep, I forgot to mention that. My controller is always plugged in, because my sixaxis battery is quite dead (its autonomy is about 2-3 hours more or less). I don't know if I have some lag with the controller unplugged. I will test this.

Even at 720, there was always some residual "stuttering" and frame drop, especially on the lower half of the playfield, and very noticeable during multi-balls in particular.

Yep, this is the last flaw. But the game being at last playable in 1920X1080 is such a good news, that I can deal with the ball "stuttering". But if Farsight can fix it, no problem! . Only if the fix doesn't induce a return of a lag problem...

After several hours, and probably 12 different tables, I can say (for ME) this game is now totally playable at 1080. Major difference in the look and feel of the gameplay. And the new "real" pinball looks SICK.

Same here. Gameplay in 1080 is not only different than in 720... it's better (for me).

 

[smbhax]

Huh, I guess you guys must have had the additional lag that certain TVs or whatever have had with the game. For me, for the past nine months or so, there has been no lag at 720p, and one frame of lag (which FarSight has confirmed as being due to special lighting processing they're doing) at 1080p, and that's still there. But I'm glad whatever additional lag you had is gone now, hopefully that will make discussion of this problem a lot simpler. : P

 

[Tann]

Huh, I guess you guys must have had the additional lag that certain TVs or whatever have had with the game. For me, for the past nine months or so, there has been no lag at 720p, and one frame of lag (which FarSight has confirmed as being due to special lighting processing they're doing) at 1080p, and that's still there. But I'm glad whatever additional lag you had is gone now, hopefully that will make discussion of this problem a lot simpler. : P

Ok, I understand better now why some players stated that they don't have any lag at 1080 (whereas it was purely unplayable for me).

Concerning this one frame lag (obvious on complex tables), is Farsight plan to fix it, or is it unfixable due to the special lighting process?

 

[smbhax]

Months and months ago eh I think someone reported talking to them in person at a show and they said they were working on getting rid of the final frame of lag, which is why with nearly every update that comes out, someone pops up here saying "hey I think they fixed the lag!" It hasn't been fixed though and now it's been so long that I can't say I'm really counting on it happening.

 

[mikepaul]

I haven't readjusted my PS3 to use 1080p, but I'm not crying over how ST:TNG looks in 720p. Or how the latest update fixed the lag problem and it's now quite playable.

Now all my muttering will be about how the vacuum of space keeps sucking the ball away down the outlanes...

 

[Tann]

Months and months ago eh I think someone reported talking to them in person at a show and they said they were working on getting rid of the final frame of lag,

Yes, I remember this, it was brakel: "The Milwaukee show was where I was told that they had found the problem and knew how to fix it. One of their guys said that in the last week they found the cause and probable fix for the remaining PS3 lag and will push out the fix asap. I think it is a priority. They've been looking at how to fix it for almost a year."

which is why with nearly every update that comes out, someone pops up here saying "hey I think they fixed the lag!" It hasn't been fixed though and now it's been so long that I can't say I'm really counting on it happening.

Before the last update, when I pressed L1/R1 buttons, the flip moved 1/2 second later. It was unplayable. A lot of ball drains and awful "horizontal" shots.

After the last update, at last, no more delay. The flip reacts as soon as I press the button.

The PS3 lag was that for me.

But as MonkeyGrass said above, "there was always some residual "stuttering" and frame drop, especially on the lower half of the playfield, and very noticeable during multi-balls in particular."

This flaw hasn't been fixed... For me, FS worked on the laggy control in 1920x1080. And it was their statement reported by brakel, I guess.

Now, have they worked on this frame drop too? I don't know.

The only thing I know, is that I finally can play TPA at its higher resolution, and it's visually splendid. And I'm very happy with that.

This frame drop is sometimes annoying, because it's very obvious when it happens (huge ball "stuttering"), but it's not a big "gamebreaking" problem, as the laggy control was.

But, if Farsight works on it too, it would be a good news.

 

[smbhax]

I have to amend statements I've made earlier about there being no flipper lag anymore at 720p--this isn't quite true, at least not on all tables. Possibly, as FarSight has said, the only lag due to whatever fancy lighting effect (why isn't there an option to turn it off??) they're using on PS3 is a single frame delay at 1080p, but at any rate something else, possibly just general processing time--as is the case on my Android cell phone, for instance--is still causing some flipper lag even at lower resolutions.

I noticed a slight flipper delay when playing Creature the other day. I switched to 480p, which reduces the tables to an awful miasma of blurry blocks on my 1080p Sony Pearl projector, but in my first game back at that setting I scored my 2nd-ever highest score on Creature. I then tried Funhouse at 480p, which I haven't played much at all lately but used to play quite a bit, and in my first game I shattered my previous high score by a significant margin.

(Although this is getting slightly off-topic, at 480p the ball also moves faster/farther, as has previously been noted in a thread about how the ball launches slightly differently at different resolutions. The whole game feels more lively and more life-like, and I suppose it's getting closer to how the physics were actually intended to work. It really does feel like a physics upgrade, it's just a shame that the trade-off is not being able to see any table detail. : P)

That being said, I could swear I've still felt a twinge of flipper lag here and there at 480p (I'm using 16:9 480p mode; I suppose there would be even less lag at 480p 4:3, but that stretches the screen aspect ratio way too much on my projector). There is as yet no way to eradicate flipper lag entirely on the PS3, which is pretty darn sad for a pinball game, especially considering that the flippers for some of these tables in their PS2 incarnations were perfectly responsive. I have hopes for the PS4 version, but I'm going to hold off on buying that new console until I hear from braver pioneers about how responsive its flippers are.

 

[Baron Rubik]

I have to amend statements I've made earlier about there being no flipper lag anymore at 720p--this isn't quite true, at least not on all tables.

I noticed a slight flipper delay when playing Creature the other day

CFTBL has input lag on many platforms. I've reported it several times. No response.

It's the only Android table that has it. When you first start playing, and aim for kiss or slide, you end up 'shatzing the inlane'.
Your timing adjusts after a couple of minutes.
I've seen the same thing reported on pc beta thread and again it was CFTBL that was mentioned.

 

[Tann]

I have to amend statements I've made earlier about there being no flipper lag anymore at 720p--this isn't quite true, at least not on all tables.

CFTBL has input lag on many platforms. I've reported it several times. No response.

I confirm the input lag on CFTBL. For me, before the 2.14/1.10 update, all the tables without exception have input lag, making TPA unplayable in higher screen resolutions (drain or "shatzing the inlane"). Now, with the reduced lag, all the tables are quite playable for me in 1080i, but some less than others.

e.g. CFTBL, ToTAN, NGG, TZ have still a residual input lag. Not a big deal, but it's obvious compared to the other tables.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

I confirm the input lag on CFTBL. For me, before the 2.14/1.10 update, all the tables without exception have input lag, making TPA unplayable in higher screen resolutions (drain or "shatzing the inlane"). Now, with the reduced lag, all the tables are quite playable for me in 1080i, but some less than others.

e.g. CFTBL, ToTAN, NGG, TZ have still a residual input lag. Not a big deal, but it's obvious compared to the other tables.

Add Big Shot to that list, as well. I really wish they would just give us an option to turn off the dynamic lighting. Not only does it look bad, but it seems to be the cause of most of the flipper lag. This is what happens when you try to program a complicated lighting and rendering system, on the system that you do not use to create your native code, or perform rigorous testing on. It's a pretty silly way to go about it, adding this dynamic lighting to the platform they spend the least amount of time working on. Just drop it and give us the same crisp, clear NORMAL lighting that looks great on EVERY. OTHER. PLATFORM. And also doesn't create flipper lag and ball stutter. The primary interaction with the game is the FLIPPERS. If they don't work right, the game is useless.

 

[Tann]

Add Big Shot to that list, as well.

Yep, I forgot this one and... Genie! (but for it, it's because of the strange physics)

 

[ER777]

I have to amend statements I've made earlier about there being no flipper lag anymore at 720p--this isn't quite true, at least not on all tables...

I agree. At 720p most tables seem to have absolutely no lag, or at least so little that you can't notice it, but there are a few where its still noticeable. CFTBL is probably the worst offender which is the only reason I don't play it more.

 

[smbhax]

Add Big Shot to that list, as well. I really wish they would just give us an option to turn off the dynamic lighting. Not only does it look bad, but it seems to be the cause of most of the flipper lag. This is what happens when you try to program a complicated lighting and rendering system, on the system that you do not use to create your native code, or perform rigorous testing on. It's a pretty silly way to go about it, adding this dynamic lighting to the platform they spend the least amount of time working on. Just drop it and give us the same crisp, clear NORMAL lighting that looks great on EVERY. OTHER. PLATFORM. And also doesn't create flipper lag and ball stutter. There is one true interaction with this game - FLIPPERS. If they don't work right, the game is useless.

I've actually been having a conversation with FarSight about this exact subject on Facebook for the past few days, right here. So far it has gone like this:

Me: If processing for a special lighting effect is causing some of the "flipper lag" input delay in the PS3 version, as a FarSight member mentioned on the pinballarcadefans forum some time ago, how about an option to turn that lighting effect off? Flipper lag in a pinball game is an awful shame. At any rate, please make sure the PS4 version is perfectly responsive, like your PS2 versions were.

The Pinball Arcade: It's not that simple, and it's not just a special lighting effect, it's the way the ps3 handles post processing in general.

Me: Hm. And having post processing is unavoidable?

The Pinball Arcade: If you want the game to look better than it does on mobile devices, yes.

Me: I would, but not at the expense of gameplay. That's why I proposed disabling it as an option, for those who might care more about having responsive flippers. As it stands now, I'm playing the game in 480p on PS3 just to reduce the lag as much as possible (I can still feel it from time to time, even so), and at that resolution on my 1080p projector, the game *does* look worse than on my cell phone--so if there was an option to play on the PS3 in cell phone detail at 1080p, I would happily take it.

So that's been interesting. Their last (at the time of this posting) comment sort of suggests that disabling the fancy screen effects could solve the flipper lag, but they don't seem to think anyone would be interested in the graphic sacrifice.

 

[ScotchYeti]

Oh no, don't turn off the lighting. You don't want that, believe me, even if it means that we have to live with the input lag. For some tables it doesn't matter so much but others like MM, ST:TNG or CV will look a lot worse.

I also can't imagine that it is that simple because you have to adjust the overall brightness of the textures as well - which brings us back to another topic: a gamma/brightness slider for the PS3!

 

[smbhax]

Hey they said looking like mobile devices, I'm just going with their words. I wouldn't think it would be simple either. I'm not sure about brightening the textures though, I guess it would depend upon how much of the dimness is from the precalculated lightmaps the PS3 version uses for shadows--mobile versions don't have those, and they only darken things, they don't brighten them; for instance, Genie is basically missing its lightmap, which is why it's super-bright. I think. Anyway obviously none of us can know exactly how their renderer is set up, we can only speculate. I brought up the question fully expecting them to say (if they replied at all) that turning off the post-processing would make the tables more or less invisible and unplayable, but they didn't say that, which is maybe encouraging. Hm after all they do have versions on other platforms that have a post-processing toggle option--not on a *console*, mind you, and console games in general almost never have performance-based graphic options because, you know, it's a fixed hardware platform and that would suggest that the designers screwed up and the game doesn't run at an adequate speed in its full graphic glory--and also I guess because you don't want people posting screenshots of the game running in lower detail; still, it's late enough in the game with the PS3 version that I don't think there could possibly be any negative PR blowback from such a move.

On the other hand, it's late enough in the game with the PS3 version that I doubt any such change will be bothered to be made, although it would be nice. Part of my reason for bringing up the topic is just to stick a bug in their ear about how having responsive flippers is a) possible (they've done it in their PHoF games on less powerful platforms, and even on the PS3), and b) essential for good pinball. I'm really not sure how they forgot it in the first place, and I want to make sure they remember it for the PS4 version, at least.