Flipper lag theory

[Tann]

PS3 version looks like mobiles versions to avoid lag?

Well... no!

Come on, PS3 is a powerful hardware, it's just a shame FS says that without the special lighting effect, it will look like mobiles versions.

Like always with FS: deal with it!

(but thanks to have reduced the input lag, though).

 

[MonkeyGrass]

Tann, the "power" of the hardware is really irrelevant at this point. And it would appear, that either 1) the PS3 is *not* actually powerful enough to handle this lighting effect or 2) FS has not spent the time to optimize the code and test it enough to make sure it works correctly. Regardless, the end result is laggy, unplayable tables. If I can play this game with a single core mobile phone with 1 GB ram, and not have any flipper lag, there is NO reason why the PS3 should have these issues. Especially 2 years after the game has launched. We've got guys playing the game at 480p to avoid the lag. I highly doubt that flat lighting at 1080 would look any worse (and likely 100x better) than dynamic lighting at 480.

There are exactly three points of interaction with a pinball table - flippers, plunger, and nudging. Of those three, only nudging works reliably and consistently in TPA.

They had 1080p tables in PHOF, with no flipper lag and fantastic response. In TPA, and only on the PS3, there is this flipper issue which is a game-killer. Particularly for those of us who have spent several years playing these tables already in PHOF.

So some of you guys value "shiny happy lighting" (complete with blurry textures and light blooms) over accurate gameplay? Really? You would rather have a nicely lit table, that is unplayable, than a flat-lit table that plays fast and accurately? I'm flabbergasted. NO other platform has this lighting, it's obviously not tested or QC'd very well, and we have to deal with crappy gameplay because of it. Get rid of it, ffs. Give us a table that plays correctly. It's the only thing that matters, really.

 

[ScotchYeti]

PHOF was 720p as far as I remember, not 1080.

And yes, with lighting the tables look so much better. MM is a great example.

I have no explanation for the blurry textures.

 

[smbhax]

Monkey, the lighting in the PS3 version isn't actually dynamic, it's just precalculated lightmaps. Anything that actually looks like a flashing light is a sprite effect or something similar. The PS4 version will have dynamic lighting.

 

[Rudy Yagov]

PHOF was 720p as far as I remember, not 1080.

And yes, with lighting the tables look so much better. MM is a great example.

I have no explanation for the blurry textures.

Nope, PHOF was definitely 1080p.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

Monkey, the lighting in the PS3 version isn't actually dynamic, it's just precalculated lightmaps. Anything that actually looks like a flashing light is a sprite effect or something similar. The PS4 version will have dynamic lighting.

I really don't care what they call.... dynamic lighting, lightmaps, whatever. Point is, it screws up the gameplay, and as an added bonus, gives a nice fuzzy pink glow to many tables. Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I think TPA looks better on my Note 10.1 in hi res mode. The fonts and table features are much easier to read clearly, and the lighting stays consistent from table to table.

Nope, PHOF was definitely 1080p.

Yes it is. And ZERO flipper lag. We all know for a fact that these tables *can* be run at 1080 without lag. Xbox has no such issues, and either does PHOF. I get it, they tried to do something new and different with this verson. Problem is, it didn't work right and now we're stuck with this mess. Sometimes you just have to own your mistakes and go back to the stuff that worked.

 

[shutyertrap]

Monkey, I get your ire. I'd be right pissed if I couldn't play these tables in a proper manner.

That said, for a lot of us, their simply is no problem. I play on a much older rear projection HD TV and don't experience lag. Trade off for me is that there is no HDMI into my TV, so I'm playing in 1080i and it's a bit soft. However, I can drag the PS3 to my ASUS computer monitor, plug it in with HDMI, and it plays beautifully in 1080p, with no lag. The common thing between both monitors? Zero post processing in them. Now I went over to a friends house, he had the game running on a large Sony LED screen. I admit, my timing was a bit off at the start, probably because the lag was a touch more pronounced, but I adjusted to it within 5 minutes and all was well.

This thread is 14 pages long for a reason. It's gotta drive those that have the bad lag bonkers hearing people like me say there's no issue. Just take a second look at your TV settings. Turn off ALL the image help the TV offers. No smooth motion this and that, no dynamic black enhancers, all that stuff turn off. Check the internet and see what the refresh response time on your TV is. If you have other TVs in the house, see how those handle it. Exhaust every possibility and post your results. Type of TV you have, settings you have on it, how the PS3 is hooked up to it, if it's going through a receiver, etc. You may not feel like it's your responsibility to do these things, but you'll much likely get a better option of responses this way.

Good luck.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

Monkey, I get your ire. I'd be right pissed if I couldn't play these tables in a proper manner.

That said, for a lot of us, their simply is no problem. I play on a much older rear projection HD TV and don't experience lag. Trade off for me is that there is no HDMI into my TV, so I'm playing in 1080i and it's a bit soft. However, I can drag the PS3 to my ASUS computer monitor, plug it in with HDMI, and it plays beautifully in 1080p, with no lag. The common thing between both monitors? Zero post processing in them. Now I went over to a friends house, he had the game running on a large Sony LED screen. I admit, my timing was a bit off at the start, probably because the lag was a touch more pronounced, but I adjusted to it within 5 minutes and all was well.

This thread is 14 pages long for a reason. It's gotta drive those that have the bad lag bonkers hearing people like me say there's no issue. Just take a second look at your TV settings. Turn off ALL the image help the TV offers. No smooth motion this and that, no dynamic black enhancers, all that stuff turn off. Check the internet and see what the refresh response time on your TV is. If you have other TVs in the house, see how those handle it. Exhaust every possibility and post your results. Type of TV you have, settings you have on it, how the PS3 is hooked up to it, if it's going through a receiver, etc. You may not feel like it's your responsibility to do these things, but you'll much likely get a better option of responses this way.

Good luck.

Done all that. Probably haven't mentioned the fact that I do a lot of high end home theater installs and know my way around an hdtv and receiver rig I get paid to install, calibrate and tune HDTV's and home theater rigs. I know whats up.

I'm already plugged into my non-processed pc/monitor input. No dynamic contrast, artifact smoothing or any other processing is going on.

The problem is not my rig. The problem is the way they process the lighting on the table. Another example is my friends setup, where he's plugged into a commercial 50" planar computer monitor that doesn't even have a tuner or any processing or adjustments on it whatsoever. Guess what.

Lag.

It is not monitor settings or processing. I know better, at least on my setups. I can't speak for anyone else's rig.

PHOF - on the exact same setup, no lag.

FS has acknowledged that there is a problem. The $20,000 question is - will it ever get fixed? At 720, it's mostly playable. Even many tables at 1080 are ... ok. However, there are several that are not. Some tables play fine, yet others are ridiculous with the lag. How can that be a monitor issue?

I also own a real Williams Sys11 table. Police Force, if anyone cares... (hence, my avatar) I know quite intimately how these tables play in real life, and how the flippers react. I do all my own maintenance and repairs, so I am most likely, overly sensitive to these types of things.

Mind if I ask you a question? Do you own and play WPHOF? I have a theory, the gist being - those who spend significant time on real tables and PHOF are the ones commenting about the lag. If TPA on PS3 is the majority of your pin-time, you adjust instinctively and never notice it, since there is no other reference to base it off off... when i go back and forth, it literally takes me about 20 min to readjust to TPA. Obvious, easy ramp shots that i make in my sleep are off, by a country mile. Its sooooo frustrating.

Don't get me wrong, please! I truly enjoy the game, and recommend it to my pinball and gamer friends. 80% of the tables play great. Probably why the ones that don't stand out so much, I guess.

 

[brakel]

Done all that. Probably haven't mentioned the fact that I do a lot of high end home theater installs and more than know my way around an hdtv and receiver rig I get paid to install, calibrate and tune HDTV's and home theater rigs. I know whats up.

I'm already plugged into my non-processed pc/monitor input. No dynamic contrast, artifact smoothing or any other processing is going on.

The problem is not my rig. The problem is the way they process the lighting on the table. Another example is my friends setup, where he's plugged into a commercial 50" planar computer monitor that doesn't even have a tuner or any processing or adjustments on it whatsoever. Guess what?

Lag.

I'm getting tired of being told it is settings or monitors. I know better, at least on my setups.

PHOF - on the exact same setup, no lag.

FS has acknowledged that there is a problem. At 720, it's mostly playable. Even many tables at 1080 are ... ok. However, there are several that are not. Is that my monitor too? Some tables play fine, others are ridiculous with the lag. How can that be a monitor issue?

I also own a real Williams Sys11 table. Police Force, if anyone cares... (hence, my avatar) I know quite intimately how these tables play in real life, and how the flippers react.

Mind if I ask you a question? Do you own and play WPHOF? I have a theory, the gist being - only those who have spent significant time on real tables and PHOF are the ones screaming about the lag. If TPA on PS3 is all you've played, you adjust almost instinctively and never notice the lag, because there is not a real reference to base it off off... when i go back and forth, it literally takes me 20-30 min to readjust to TPA. Obvious, easy ramp shots that i make in my sleep are off, by a country mile. Its sooooo frustrating.

I think different people are more aware of the lag than others. I've played real pinball tables for a little over 40 years and I played the crap out of the PS3 version of PHoF. I find the current lag at 1080p to be very playable. The lag when the game first came out was almost unplayable to me. About the time that they stopped publishing to the 360 I was ready to buy another 360 after having sold mine the year before. I was glad I didn't! But they did improve lag at one point and it became playable to me. Don't get me wrong I'd love for FS to fix it but it obviously doesn't effect me as much as it does you. My brother visited earlier this year and he couldn't play the game because of the lag.

I don't know if we are perceiving the lag differently, adjusting to it differently or if it's like nails on a chalk board where it's driving some people nuts but other people don't care.

 

[shutyertrap]

Monkey...

First off, since you do calibrations and custom installs, I'm not even going to question your knowledge of hooking up properly. I think if people paid to have their TVs calibrated they'd be shocked at the difference.

Second, I own a Firepower machine and play in a league every month. So yeah, I get my real game on as well as play digitally. Now I haven't thrown PHOF in since TPA (other than to check some graphical and physics differences), but I do know the physics are more forgiving in PHOF. I can jump back and forth between Zen and TPA though, and I don't notice lag.

Third, here's my theory: as an installer and calibrator, your eye is trained to see things that to the average person is minute but to you is a giant red flag. It's like when high end audiophiles comment about mp3 versus a master recording. To me it all sounds the same, but then my ear isn't trained to pick it out. When I watch a movie though, as that's my field of work, I can pick things out and be annoyed and my wife just tells me to shut up!

All I can say is, cross your fingers it'll get fixed in the PS3 megapatch FS has been talking about.

 

[smbhax]

cross your fingers it'll get fixed in the PS3 megapatch FS has been talking about.

That seems unlikely; the purpose of the Megapatch is to patch the table DLC, not rewrite the game's render code.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

Monkey...

First off, since you do calibrations and custom installs, I'm not even going to question your knowledge of hooking up properly. I think if people paid to have their TVs calibrated they'd be shocked at the difference.

Second, I own a Firepower machine and play in a league every month. So yeah, I get my real game on as well as play digitally. Now I haven't thrown PHOF in since TPA (other than to check some graphical and physics differences), but I do know the physics are more forgiving in PHOF. I can jump back and forth between Zen and TPA though, and I don't notice lag.

Third, here's my theory: as an installer and calibrator, your eye is trained to see things that to the average person is minute but to you is a giant red flag. It's like when high end audiophiles comment about mp3 versus a master recording. To me it all sounds the same, but then my ear isn't trained to pick it out. When I watch a movie though, as that's my field of work, I can pick things out and be annoyed and my wife just tells me to shut up!

All I can say is, cross your fingers it'll get fixed in the PS3 megapatch FS has been talking about.

Well SYT, you've hit the proverbial nail square on the head. Not only do I do home theater and HDTV setups and installs, I'm actually a musician, audio engineer and studio owner by trade. The home theater side sort of grew out of my studio and audio engineering business. I quite literally make my living tweaking obscure setting and tuning gear and audio/video equipment. You could not be more correct about the MP3 thing, lol!!! The only time I can even stand to listen to one is in the car, where audio fidelity is questionable and you can't really tell the difference. Yes, I own a Vinyl rig that is more valuable than car I drive. :/ If not for my investment in my studio and vinyl, I'd probably have several more tables... as it stands now, the studio takes up half the upstairs of my house, and the vinyl rig takes up most of the living room. I have a very understanding wife!!

I am constantly amazed at how people have their TV's set up... most of them look like over-saturated cartoons!! It's amazing, some folks will pay tens of thousands of dollars for the "latest and greatest" gear and then freak out at the thought of spending a couple hundred to tune and calibrate, its like pulling teeth. I guess they figure since they paid top dollar for "the best" that is should work perfectly, right out of the box with no adjustments required. Some people are blown away with a properly calibrated HDTV. Others, either don't notice, don't care, or actually prefer oversaturated colors and unnatural contrast levels. It does take some getting used too, if you have been living with a TV on retail or "attract" mode.

Firepower? And you haven't taken a baseball bat to it yet? I have a very strong love/hate relationship with FP. Mostly, I love to hate it!

Brakel - Yes, there was an improvement, (I think it was 2.14) where suddenly, most of the tables became playable. I was about to give up on the game completely at that point. Further evidence that the primary issue is not a monitor/response time/processing issue on the user's end of things. I have no doubt that low-end HDTV's with bad response rates and all the retail "enhancements" cranked up compound the problem, however.


Thank you gentlemen for the stimulating convo. I will leave this issue now, as I feel like I have presented my points and anything further just isn't fair to that poor, dead, equine over in the corner. Hopefully FS gets the message, and this gets addressed is the super-mega-ermegerd-PS3 patch.

 

[shutyertrap]

Wait! I'm not done with you yet, Monkey.

No, I haven't taken a baseball bat to Firepower yet, but it is in pieces right now as I try to restore it. It worked fine, but there were issues that weren't letting it play 100%. First pin I've owned, and within a month I couldn't take it and tore it apart. Now I'm in a very slow process of restoring the play field, mostly slow because I'm lazy! To top things off, once I'm done I'm just gonna try and trade up to a table I actually want.

So let's talk HDTV. I bought a Pioneer Elite RPTV back in 2001. I immediately paid a nice chunk of change to have a ISF guy calibrate it. It was stunning. What I didn't know was, with RPTVs you gotta keep on getting 'em calibrated every so often. So ten years later, I was looking at a pic where my blacks had gone to mush (needs a gamma reset), the focus is not as crisp, and the overscan is driving me bonkers. All correctable, but no calibrator wanted to touch an RPTV anymore, if they even knew how. Only guy I found on AV forum was 'Mr Bob', who really has made a business of bringing these things back to full glory, but at a huge cost. Like, just buy a brand new TV cost. I almost did it though, was about to make arrangements to fly him down (he's in the Bay Area, me SoCal) when it struck me...I'd just have to get the thing calibrated 2 years later! I opened the TV up, cleaned the lenses and mirror which helped a little, and resigned myself to the pic I have until I can afford the TV I want. Seems black levels have finally started being good at affordable prices, which is a huge thing for me.

I cringe every time I walk into Costco and they have the TVs set to 'motion flow' or whatever it's being called. How anyone can look at those soap opera like pictures and think it looks good is beyond me. I go over to friend's houses and beg them to at least throw in a calibration disc or download some settings from AV Forums rather than leave the TV in torch mode. One friend was still using composite cables because he hadn't bothered to buy HDMI for his PS3! And yes, he said he really didn't think it'd make much of a difference.

I walked into an audio store one time that had a turntable for $24,000 and then promptly turned right around and walked out. I didn't even wanna waste their time! I do almost 100% of my music listening in the car, so between road noise, a kid in the back seat, or listening to something like NIN, I'm not too concerned with fidelity. I just want loud and clear. I'm sure if I was in a proper sound room with the high end stuff and doing an A/B comparison, I might hear the diffence, but then I also kinda doubt it. I just know to not buy Bose (no highs no lows, must be Bose!).

 

[Tann]

FS has acknowledged that there is a problem. The $20,000 question is - will it ever get fixed? At 720, it's mostly playable. Even many tables at 1080 are ... ok. However, there are several that are not. Some tables play fine, yet others are ridiculous with the lag. How can that be a monitor issue?

+1

Yes, there was an improvement, (I think it was 2.14) where suddenly, most of the tables became playable. I was about to give up on the game completely at that point. Further evidence that the primary issue is not a monitor/response time/processing issue on the user's end of things.

+1 again.

But, except CFTBL and ToTAN, all the tables (from season 1 only, I don't own season 2) are playable now (in 1080i for me, don't know in 1080p, as some players still encounter lag problems on all tables > here.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

Wait! I'm not done with you yet, Monkey.

No, I haven't taken a baseball bat to Firepower yet, but it is in pieces right now as I try to restore it. It worked fine, but there were issues that weren't letting it play 100%. First pin I've owned, and within a month I couldn't take it and tore it apart. Now I'm in a very slow process of restoring the play field, mostly slow because I'm lazy! To top things off, once I'm done I'm just gonna try and trade up to a table I actually want.

So let's talk HDTV. I bought a Pioneer Elite RPTV back in 2001. I immediately paid a nice chunk of change to have a ISF guy calibrate it. It was stunning. What I didn't know was, with RPTVs you gotta keep on getting 'em calibrated every so often. So ten years later...

Yikes, that RPTV is still going after 10+ years?! You certainly have done your job calibrating it. Those models are typically good for about 5-8 years before they go bad under normal use. My partner has a 7 yr old rptv that he loves, and even calibrated to perfection, he's had to replace the $250 primary projection tube 3 times already. Every time it goes, he says "this is the last time I do it" but even though we get product at wholesale, he hasn't found anything he likes enough to spend the money on a replacement. When it does finally bite it, he's going with a Panny Viera 60" plasma. Far and away the best price/quality plasma on the market, we sell them all the time.

Sounds like your tubes are on the way out... Are you at the end of any of your brightness/contrast sliders yet? If so, that's your sign. On that model you are looking at $4-700 to replace the tubes. Very possible to fix, but the cost to benefit ratio is the reason that most guys won't touch it. Not much else you can do with it, I'm afraid.

Have you put in a calibration disc lately? That will tell you if you are still able to calibrate anywhere close to standard. That's about all you can do, short of tube replacement and complete re-calibration of the set from scratch.

Basically, and I'm sure you already know this, that tv is on borrowed time. Unless you decide to spend nearly a grand reconditioning it, that is. I'd start saving for a new TV

Hehehehe.. bose. The high end speakers for people who know nothing!! Actually, older, pre-1985 series II are pretty decent bookshelf speakers, but good luck finding any that are still intact! Anything later is overpriced garbage with whacked out eq tuning.

My Police Force is in pretty good shape. It plays 100%, fast, tight and awesome. The cab is pretty beat up, and I have one GI lighting issue that I've finally traced the wiring down to the fault and simply need a few hours to get back into it with some new 16 gauge and re-wire it. Pretty much re-worked the whole playfield and replaced all the rubbers/bumpers and of course, always chasing whichever light has gone out that month, since I have not started an LED upgrade. I'm about to replace all the stock speakers with some nice Polk audio components though!!

I've de-railed this thread enough, eh? Sorry guys. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions about this stuff!

 

[tizzomr]

I don't have time to read this whole thread, but I thought I was trippin, but I have the first of the ps3 slims, and a sony 1080p. I had a crappy HDMI, and replaced it with an upgrade and it got better. I think the setup plays a big part.

 

[tizzomr]

I just turned something on my Sony TV called DRC Mode (Digital Reality Creation) and I was playing Harley Davidson which is a table you'll definitely notice lag on, and in turning this off it made a substantial difference. My advice to anybody is to 1. Make sure you have a good HDMI cable and 2. If you have one of these LED HDTV's play with the Picture Options, as some of these settings are designed for TV and movies, NOT video games, and forgive me if this has been said, but I'm on my phone, so I ain't about to read all 18 pages of this thread. Hope this helps somebody.

 

[brakel]

I just turned something on my Sony TV called DRC Mode (Digital Reality Creation) and I was playing Harley Davidson which is a table you'll definitely notice lag on, and in turning this off it made a substantial difference. My advice to anybody is to 1. Make sure you have a good HDMI cable and 2. If you have one of these LED HDTV's play with the Picture Options, as some of these settings are designed for TV and movies, NOT video games, and forgive me if this has been said, but I'm on my phone, so I ain't about to read all 18 pages of this thread. Hope this helps somebody.

Every HDMI compliant cable is a good HDMI cable. Buy the shortest and least expensive for your needs.

For games, TV and Movies the first thing that I do before I get out my calibration disc is to turn off all video processing options. Almost all video processing options add artifacts of some kind of another. A good calibrated TV will look more like what the cinematographer intended with all that stuff turned off. The other benefit is that it will then also naturally work better with games.

 

[tizzomr]

Every HDMI compliant cable is a good HDMI cable. Buy the shortest and least expensive for your needs.

For games, TV and Movies the first thing that I do before I get out my calibration disc is to turn off all video processing options. Almost all video processing options add artifacts of some kind of another. A good calibrated TV will look more like what the cinematographer intended with all that stuff turned off. The other benefit is that it will then also naturally work better with games.

I don't want to argue, but I changed out a generic I had connected and there was a difference, although the greatest difference came from turning the "DRC" off and even with motion assistance, black and white assistance turned on I'm good now. I believe there is a slight difference, but to each their own. The "DRC" definitely makes a difference.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

I don't want to argue, but I changed out a generic I had connected and there was a difference, although the greatest difference came from turning the "DRC" off and even with motion assistance, black and white assistance turned on I'm good now. I believe there is a slight difference, but to each their own. The "DRC" definitely makes a difference.

Then don't. HDMI cables are either compliant, or not. They aren't like audio cables. If they work, and are compliant, then they are the same across the board. You may have had a cable failing, but I'm about 99% positive that the difference you are seeing is from turning off the post-processing, and NOT the cable. It's possible for any cable to go bad, so I can't rule it out completely, but you aren't going to notice any difference in 'quality' with a new HDMI cable vs a older functional cable. Feel free to go back and read the conversation you are participating in, if you like... we've discussed TV settings and processing ad-nauseum... the lag is not is the TV settings... it's in the game, and very obvious on certain tables.