Flipper lag theory

[Urbanshenkie]

Agree, total unacceptable

True that.......

 

[Jim O'Brien]

That setting doesn't work for me either, but thank you for the tip. The end all to eliminate the lag altogether for me was hooking up my old CRT TV and playing in 480i. smooverr what version of the PS3 are you using ? I'm running a 250gb slim on a 50" plasma TV with no game mode the closest thing I have to game mode would be something called standard picture.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Merged with other flipper lag thread.

 

[smooverr]

That setting doesn't work for me either, but thank you for the tip. The end all to eliminate the lag altogether for me was hooking up my old CRT TV and playing in 480i. smooverr what version of the PS3 are you using ? I'm running a 250gb slim on a 50" plasma TV with no game mode the closest thing I have to game mode would be something called standard picture.

I have a 160Gb fat hooked up to a 50" Samsung plasma running in game mode. Also tried it on my friends 52" (i think) LCD, he has a slim console.

It just amazes me how bad the lag is considering the 360 has NONE whatsoever. If it wasn't for the lack of tables I wouldn't have even bothered with the PS version.

Hmmm maybe it's all part of farsights master plan to increase sales :|

 

[smbhax]

The PS3 version has a more advanced rendering engine--better lighting and transparencies. I wonder if that's why it's slower than the 360 version. At one point ages ago they were saying the 360 version would get updated to the more advanced graphics. That doesn't seem to have happened yet--I suppose they ran into that trouble with getting publisher rights to update the 360 version or whatever--but it would be interesting to see if the 360 gets "flipper lag" if they ever get the graphic update out for it.

Oh and apparently the Mac version has really bad flipper lag? linky

 

[Mark W**a]

The PS3 version has a more advanced rendering engine--better lighting and transparencies. I wonder if that's why it's slower than the 360 version. At one point ages ago they were saying the 360 version would get updated to the more advanced graphics. That doesn't seem to have happened yet--I suppose they ran into that trouble with getting publisher rights to update the 360 version or whatever--but it would be interesting to see if the 360 gets "flipper lag" if they ever get the graphic update out for it.

Oh and apparently the Mac version has really bad flipper lag? linky

It's more advanced lighting barely I guess, but not transparency. They are actually worse on PS3, the console sucks at doing alphas. Though they are prettier from an artistic standpoint on some tables specifically Arabian Nights.

It's not the tech that's causing this. I played PS3 version on a CRT TV and there was absolutely zero lag. Playing in 480P doesn't change the graphics just the resolution. To be fair in theory it'd be less taxing on the hardware, except that the game is still rendering internally in HD, but simply displaying in 480P.

I think the answer to all of this is simple: it's the PS3's lack of an internal scaler that is causing all the issues. 360 has internal scaling. It's really that simple. That's the only way you can explain why there is zero lag when hooked to a PC monitor. This is an issue with other PS3 games, notably fighting games, and probably many more games people just don't realize it. Makes sense you'd notice this on 60 FPS games that require pinpoint acuracy like pinball and fighters. Yet there is a way to code around this limitation as evident by games like Zen Pinball.

 

[Biff]

the console sucks at doing alphas.

Transparency by itself ain't a special task for the ps3 & xbox hardware.
It's all about the code. TPA simply isn't a real PS3 game, it feels like a ported game.
The TPA engine is not properly optimized for the PS3. A lot of devs from different companies complain
that working on the ps3 is very complicated. Yet developing on the xbox is easier and way closer to the pc.
Some companies know how to get the most out of the PS3. For example the Naughty Dog Studios.
But they work closely together with Sony.

Every game on every platform can be awful, if the code isn't properly optimized for the specific platform.

Yet there is a way to code around this limitation as evident by games like Zen Pinball.

Zen 1 & 2 both are 720p games. When you start a Zen Pinball, your monitor automatically switches to 720p. Some Monitors show this information on the screen. Lower resolutions require less cpu/gpu power. That also gives you more frames per second.
But as we all know Zen Games look great! Because they use optimized graphics for 720p.
(By the way, Zen doesn't emulate old stuff)

A lot of triple A games use 720p on the ps3.

 

[smooverr]

Well said Mark. I have all tables on both consoles and while I'd MUCH rather play on the 360, I abandoned it for the diversity on the PS3. I say abandoned because if I even touch it, just for ONE game, it completely throws me off when I go back to the PS3. Otherwise, I've just adjusted and got used to the lag to the point where I don't notice it as much anymore.

I've given up hope they'll ever patch it as it should really be the number TWO issue (behind bugs) that really should have been fixed months ago. It's frustrating as a consumer that desperately wants to throw money I don't have at Farsight. I also have 3 tables on iOS (CFTBL, BK, and TZ), and in perusing the demos of other tables to see the differences its just astounding. I'd say the Xbox/iOS have the best looking playfields (PS3's are pretty attrocious for the most part), the PS3 has the best lighting, and the 360 sounds better for some reason. The PS3 (after the last patch) has the best ball and flipper physics, but the lag free 360 makes up for a lot of that.

My fingers are crossed that since they've already completed pack 7, and are only releasing 2 tables between Dec-Jan they will take the extra time to go back and fix things. Bugs and flipper lag FIRST and foremost. Then they need to address the lighting. There is no reason a table like CV should exist with its EXCELLENT lighting effects, and then go down the line to NGG and literally LOL at how bad the flashers (if you can even call them that) look.

I'd just like to see consistency across all platforms. I understand the problems with the 360 are out of their control so I'll give them a pass on that. Even the release schedules are backwards now. Why are the mobile versions coming out weeks before the consoles? I get that is their main revenue stream, but they are letting their business model interfere with their product, and as a result are alienating alot of customers. There is no word coming from them regarding these issues. Just rumour and speculation. There is no way these tables should only look and play marginally better than PHoF. The consoles should afford more than enough power to juice up the lighting effects on these tables.

I hate to say I'm starting to lose faith in FS (really, CV is STILL messed up??) I'll keep buying their products, but it will always feel like it could have been so much better than it is.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Well said Mark. I have all tables on both consoles and while I'd MUCH rather play on the 360, I abandoned it for the diversity on the PS3. I say abandoned because if I even touch it, just for ONE game, it completely throws me off when I go back to the PS3. Otherwise, I've just adjusted and got used to the lag to the point where I don't notice it as much anymore.

I've given up hope they'll ever patch it as it should really be the number TWO issue (behind bugs) that really should have been fixed months ago. It's frustrating as a consumer that desperately wants to throw money I don't have at Farsight. I also have 3 tables on iOS (CFTBL, BK, and TZ), and in perusing the demos of other tables to see the differences its just astounding. I'd say the Xbox/iOS have the best looking playfields (PS3's are pretty attrocious for the most part), the PS3 has the best lighting, and the 360 sounds better for some reason. The PS3 (after the last patch) has the best ball and flipper physics, but the lag free 360 makes up for a lot of that.

My fingers are crossed that since they've already completed pack 7, and are only releasing 2 tables between Dec-Jan they will take the extra time to go back and fix things. Bugs and flipper lag FIRST and foremost. Then they need to address the lighting. There is no reason a table like CV should exist with its EXCELLENT lighting effects, and then go down the line to NGG and literally LOL at how bad the flashers (if you can even call them that) look.

I'd just like to see consistency across all platforms. I understand the problems with the 360 are out of their control so I'll give them a pass on that. Even the release schedules are backwards now. Why are the mobile versions coming out weeks before the consoles? I get that is their main revenue stream, but they are letting their business model interfere with their product, and as a result are alienating alot of customers. There is no word coming from them regarding these issues. Just rumour and speculation. There is no way these tables should only look and play marginally better than PHoF. The consoles should afford more than enough power to juice up the lighting effects on these tables.

I hate to say I'm starting to lose faith in FS (really, CV is STILL messed up??) I'll keep buying their products, but it will always feel like it could have been so much better than it is.

I wouldn't give up hope yet. They've improved the lag a couple times now in the patches. I'm guessing if you played when the game was first released that your lag would've been even worse.

 

[brakel]

Well said Mark. I have all tables on both consoles and while I'd MUCH rather play on the 360, I abandoned it for the diversity on the PS3. I say abandoned because if I even touch it, just for ONE game, it completely throws me off when I go back to the PS3. Otherwise, I've just adjusted and got used to the lag to the point where I don't notice it as much anymore.

I've given up hope they'll ever patch it as it should really be the number TWO issue (behind bugs) that really should have been fixed months ago. It's frustrating as a consumer that desperately wants to throw money I don't have at Farsight. I also have 3 tables on iOS (CFTBL, BK, and TZ), and in perusing the demos of other tables to see the differences its just astounding. I'd say the Xbox/iOS have the best looking playfields (PS3's are pretty attrocious for the most part), the PS3 has the best lighting, and the 360 sounds better for some reason. The PS3 (after the last patch) has the best ball and flipper physics, but the lag free 360 makes up for a lot of that.

My fingers are crossed that since they've already completed pack 7, and are only releasing 2 tables between Dec-Jan they will take the extra time to go back and fix things. Bugs and flipper lag FIRST and foremost. Then they need to address the lighting. There is no reason a table like CV should exist with its EXCELLENT lighting effects, and then go down the line to NGG and literally LOL at how bad the flashers (if you can even call them that) look.

I'd just like to see consistency across all platforms. I understand the problems with the 360 are out of their control so I'll give them a pass on that. Even the release schedules are backwards now. Why are the mobile versions coming out weeks before the consoles? I get that is their main revenue stream, but they are letting their business model interfere with their product, and as a result are alienating alot of customers. There is no word coming from them regarding these issues. Just rumour and speculation. There is no way these tables should only look and play marginally better than PHoF. The consoles should afford more than enough power to juice up the lighting effects on these tables.

I hate to say I'm starting to lose faith in FS (really, CV is STILL messed up??) I'll keep buying their products, but it will always feel like it could have been so much better than it is.

FS has said that they are working on the PS3 flipper lag. They did on fix on one of the last two updates that improved it some. I know I noticed. But they said that they are still trying to find what is causing the rest of the flipper lag.

They finish all versions of TPA at approximately the same time. Then they submit them all to be published. Android approves and puts it in the store in about three days. Apple takes about a week. Sony and Microsoft take about 4-6 weeks. There is no love loss on FS' side when it comes to console players. Its just that the approval process takes much, much longer on the consoles.

FS' art guy started a section in this forum just to report art bugs. I don't think he'd be collecting these if he wasn't looking to fix them.

 

[smooverr]

Is it really reasonable to have to wait this long to have some very basic problems fixed? Think of any other consumer product. If its defective, it gets fixed. ASAP. And this usually applies to games as well. This is one of the worst examples I e ever seen of a lack of technical support.

They've been saying these things will be fixed for months. So "we're looking into it" just doesn't cut it for me anymore. If they honestly expect to fund another successful kick starter without addressing these issues then I may begin to believe they're all delusional.

 

[Mark W**a]

Transparency by itself ain't a special task for the ps3 & xbox hardware.
It's all about the code. TPA simply isn't a real PS3 game, it feels like a ported game.
The TPA engine is not properly optimized for the PS3. A lot of devs from different companies complain
that working on the ps3 is very complicated. Yet developing on the xbox is easier and way closer to the pc.
Some companies know how to get the most out of the PS3. For example the Naughty Dog Studios.
But they work closely together with Sony.

Every game on every platform can be awful, if the code isn't properly optimized for the specific platform.



Zen 1 & 2 both are 720p games. When you start a Zen Pinball, your monitor automatically switches to 720p. Some Monitors show this information on the screen. Lower resolutions require less cpu/gpu power. That also gives you more frames per second.
But as we all know Zen Games look great! Because they use optimized graphics for 720p.
(By the way, Zen doesn't emulate old stuff)

A lot of triple A games use 720p on the ps3.

High resolution alpha effects , or lack thereof, are most definitely a weakness of the PS3 architecture and a strength of the 360s. It's mostly thanks to the benefits of having high bandwidth, super fast on chip ram (10MB of EDRAM) and the GPU, amongst other things, which results in higher fill rate etc. On the flipside that same strength serves as the systems bottleneck for doing certain lighting schemes. A great, real world example to see exactly what I'm talking about would be to look at Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 versus Ninja Gaiden 2. It's one of the few multiplatform games that is designed differently for each console, instead of just using some generic middleware engine, and shows the architectural differences between the two machines quite clearly. There are other examples but this is my favorite because it hits on everything I've mentioned.


Zen and Pinball arcade are both 60 fps, even though Zen is lower res. Not sure what the point you were trying to make was.

Most companies use 720P and 30 FPS yes this is a fact, again I'm not sure what your point is though.

PS3 and 360 Pinball Arcade are 90% identical. The geometry, textures, sounds, framerate, and resolution are identical (at least to my knowledge). The only differences I noticed (and I admit my time with the PS3 version was very brief) were the differences in transparencies and lighting which were exactly what you'd expect given the differences between the two machines. The other differences look to be artistic ones. Like how Medieval Madness looks like a poop smeared mess on PS3. Technically there is no reason why that should be.

As for PlayStation fans, I wish they'd come into reality. I had this same issue in my Sega Saturn days, I would never admit that the PS1 was more powerful, and I'd always cite NiGHTS or Burning Rangers or Panzer Dragoon 2 as my "proof", even though every multi-platform game favored the PlayStation. I did that when I was 12. PlayStation fans do the same thing just with Uncharted, Killzone, and God of War. But when I learned the truth years later and it's that Saturn was, "arguably" more powerful (when coded by gods like Naka or Suzuki) but in reality was just a super complicated mess that had both strengths and weaknesses to the PlayStation's design...mostly weaknesses. The situation today with Xbox and PS3 is so similar (except reversed) that it's actually incredibly ironic.

 

[shutyertrap]

As for PlayStation fans, I wish they'd come into reality.

We have Blu-Ray, we win!

Yeah, you can't compare console exclusives to show how awesome your system is graphically. Naughty Dog and Polyphony Digital know how to squeeze every last ounce of juice from a PS3, something most 3rd party developers don't even try for. But there have been a few instances of a game being developed for both consoles with the PS3 being the lead, and it comes out looking better for it. It just seems that when a game has Xbox as the lead, the port to PS3 suffers. Switch the situation and the Xbox port is pushing the system to its brink. *Analogy time* You can take a high quality audio signal and dumb it down while still retaining good quality, but you can't take good quality and pump it up to high quality.

So without me sounding too much like a PS3 fanboy (and admittedly I am, but its over the games, not the quality), I think it is possible for both systems to have outstanding visuals. Like someone said, 90% of it is identical. The trick is having someone foster it that final 10% to really make it shine. And from what I've seen, most developers don't want to put in the extra time or energy to properly use a PS3's strengths due to it being 'difficult' compared to bringing an Xbox title to the finish for that final 10%.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Let's leave the console war stuff be and keep it on topic.

 

[shutyertrap]

Oops!

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

My PS3 got into my stash and just doesnt want to do what I tell it because IM "THE MAN" a slave driver. Just a theory

 

[Mark W**a]

I just wanna say, ten years ago (when I was in my mid -late teens) I owned all 4 then-current gen consoles (living at home + working = mad disposable income) and back then, there was no debate, everyone knew the pecking order. Xbox>Gamecube>PS2>DC, "power" wise. There was a little debate over whether GameCube was as powerful as Xbox, and some preferred the cleaner image quality and better textures of Dreamcast to the higher polygon counts of the PS2, but at the end of the day everyone was in agreement, for the most part. There was never weird excuses like "lazy devs" when a port was inferior or people clinging to first party games as if this proves their system was the most powerful.

Nobody cared. I miss those days. And after Dreamcast died, PS2 was the weakest home console, but that didn't stop it from outselling Xbox and Gamecube, what, 3-1 combined? PlayStation fans didn't care their system wasn't the most powerful so I'm not sure what happened.

Closest thing I can remember to this current situation is the Sega Genesis vs. Super Nintendo days. I owned a Sega Genesis, and so did all of my friends. Out of like 10 kids in the neighborhood 2 owned Super NES and I never recall, ever, not once, getting into any kind of debate over which system was "better" or "more powerful". I'm sorry to say but I just feel my generation is smarter and more civilized than kids these days ( I have to assume most of this fanboy wars is comiing from 17 and under).

Nobody was delusional back then. We knew Mortal Kombat 1 was better on Genesis, we knew Mortal Kombat 2 was better on SNES. We knew Madden was better on Sega, we also knew the glory of Tecmo Super Bowl on SNES. We just had fun and enjoyed all the best games, and we were 10 year olds.

 

[brakel]

No good will come from the trend of this thread...

 

[SKILL_SHOT]

I'ts ALL BRAKEL's FAULT! Just a theory.

 

[Jeff Strong]

Mark, please let it go already. Back on topic...