So Zen visited Stern today...

[steven120566]

Not so fast....

If Zen do steal this license, I hope they remain friends with Farsight. It has been nice to see them chatting on Twitter, praising each others games and that kind of thing.

Zen has taken too much flak. I cannot agree that Farsight ball physics are better. Zen games to me are more about the skill of the player... TPA tables are excellent but not as fun to play actually, and it's because of the over bouncy ball physics. Also, I see the same exact "ball descent" patterns occur over and over in farsight, as well as lack or variability in plunger control.

I know I am in the minority, but Zen has the better physics, and better flipper and ball control for the player. I am not trying to start a debate or anything, because I play both games as do most people who would chime in here. Those who disagree w/ me are not wrong, I just think the physics bashing is a matter of preference, maybe "realistic" and "playable" are two different things here. I don't want Zen to fix what I think is not broken.

 

[shutyertrap]

Zen has taken too much flak. I cannot agree that Farsight ball physics are better. Zen games to me are more about the skill of the player... TPA tables are excellent but not as fun to play actually, and it's because of the over bouncy ball physics. Also, I see the same exact "ball descent" patterns occur over and over in farsight, as well as lack or variability in plunger control.

I know I am in the minority, but Zen has the better physics, and better flipper and ball control for the player. I am not trying to start a debate or anything, because I play both games as do most people who would chime in here. Those who disagree w/ me are not wrong, I just think the physics bashing is a matter of preference, maybe "realistic" and "playable" are two different things here. I don't want Zen to fix what I think is not broken.

I'm not a Zen physics hater either. I do believe their rubber needs to have more bounce, but I personally like the weight of their ball. To me you can feel the struggle of the ball going up ramps, and I've played enough tables in real life where this is totally the reality. Conversely, the bounce of the ball you mention? Oh it's a reality. I just played the Medieval Madness reproduction last month, and that ball bounced all over the place, as much as I've ever seen in TPA. If TPA could implement ball spin like Zen, that would take care of the patterns.

Anyway, they both have their pros and cons. We just don't know how many cons would disappear with Zen if they actually reproduced a real table.

 

[steven120566]

Good point... and the way it is now... both games do what they do so well that the subject of Zen doing real tables almost unnerves me. It's probably because I really enjoy both games, because they are slightly different in experiences they deliver.

 

[mpad]

Well said!
IMHO:
TPA needs some extra ball weight, zen needs to loose some. The ramp vacuum cleaner suction on TPA is ridiculous, better in zen. Flipper physics / control is great in TPA v3.0, zen has great control also but weird magnetic rubbers.
Both are very playable of course! Just needs time for the player to adjust.

 

[Espy]

Personally I think both physics have their pros and cons. TPA's is probably more realistic in terms of general feel, but Zen have some more sophisticated features TPA doesn't such as ball spin.

At the end of the day, you can refuse to play a game because the physics are a little bit off, or accept the physics, get used to them (to the point you don't notice them) and enjoy the positives of Zen's tables. That's what I think, anyway.

 

[shutyertrap]

At the end of the day, you can refuse to play a game because the physics are a little bit off, or accept the physics, get used to them (to the point you don't notice them) and enjoy the positives of Zen's tables. That's what I think, anyway.

Exactly.

 

[Kratos3]

Personally I think both physics have their pros and cons. TPA's is probably more realistic in terms of general feel, but Zen have some more sophisticated features TPA doesn't such as ball spin.

At the end of the day, you can refuse to play a game because the physics are a little bit off, or accept the physics, get used to them (to the point you don't notice them) and enjoy the positives of Zen's tables. That's what I think, anyway.

Yep. I played Zen exclusively for a good couple of months last year and it's interesting how each one has their realistic qualities.

Now, if Zen would just buy out Farsight, they could put their heads together and create the penultimate pinball simulator!

IMO, ball spin, decreased nudge strength, increased tilt sensitivity, more ball weight, and steeper ramp slope or physics(or whatever would make ramps more difficult), plus flipper 3.0 on all tables, would make TPA damn close to real life.

 

[Robert Misner]

I wish zen would move abit more closer to simulation around the flipper mechanics in general ..they're to grippy and abit to close together. I love so many of their fantasy tables tho.. they're really fun when ya get into them.
The southpark tables are fantasic fun.
Oh and fix the bloody Portrait views or let them be customizable..the current ones are a mess.(i'M hoping NoEx takes alook cuz if a game needs custom camera views its PFX2)

 

[Jeff Strong]

The fact that you can trap/catch just about any ball in Zen (including balls coming down the inlanes) is what ruins it for me. I know I've said it before, but for me much of the thrill in playing a real pinball machine is the battle to control the ball and to keep it alive...and that just isn't there in Zen...at all.

 

[Jeff Strong]

The fact that you can trap/catch just about any ball in Zen (including balls coming down the inlanes) is what ruins it for me. I know I've said it before, but for me much of the thrill in playing a real pinball machine is the battle to control the ball and to keep it alive...and that just isn't there in Zen...at all.

With that said, I absolutely love their polish and presentation...and their P.R. (the three P's?). If they can start putting out tables with more realistic physics (the final and most important P, imo), then I'll be tickled pink.

 

[switch3flip]

S.A.M. is history, long live Spike.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

If I'm Gary Stern, I'm going to choose a more proven, bug-free platform to showcase my games. A platform with resources and a track record of putting out polished games across multiple platforms, on time. And that platform, my friends, is Zen. NOT TPA. Too many bugs, and not enough attention to detail or polish. How does a ball shooting out the back of an Xmen cabinet help showcase Stern's modern lineup? It doesn't. I would *love* to see Zen take on a real sim for a change.

VP has been able to emulate SAM for quite some time. Doesn't take a Cray supercomputer to run it. Yet, FS still can't "figure out" how to do it.... hmmm... or incorporate ball spin... or release a table across multiple platforms without game-wrecking bugs...

I would be all over some Zen/Stern partnership action! Perhaps Zen would build a V-Pin cab, stocked with the entire modern Stern lineup, and their current catalog as well. That would be something to seriously consider.

 

[Flipperdeflip]

VP has been able to emulate SAM for quite some time. Doesn't take a Cray supercomputer to run it. Yet, FS still can't "figure out" how to do it.... hmmm...

The emulation engine of TPA is not written by FarSight but by Steve Ellenoff, the same guy who is behind the emulation engine of VP. The reason why we don't have SAM emulation in TPA is because it has to run on mobile devices like the iPad 1.

 

[Kratos3]

The emulation engine of TPA is not written by FarSight but by Steve Ellenoff, the same guy who is behind the emulation engine of VP. The reason why we don't have SAM emulation in TPA is because it has to run on mobile devices like the iPad 1.

I don't want to start this discussion again......but that's a big part of the problem with the current state of TPA.

 

[shutyertrap]

Yeah, let's not start that part of the discussion again and instead all agree that it is the #1 thing holding FarSight back.

 

[switch3flip]

Well Zen is not emulated, we haven't seen any emulated ROM coming from Zen but can we just assume they will pick up on every bug that could come from ROM emulation and have it running on ios and android? Or we just assume they will make a perfect scripted version? Yeah, sure.

 

[shutyertrap]

Well Zen is not emulated, we haven't seen any emulated ROM coming from Zen but can we just assume they will pick up on every bug that could come from ROM emulation and have it running on ios and android? Or we just assume they will make a perfect scripted version? Yeah, sure.

Well, it had to be scripted first at Stern, right? Given the time and resources (which I think Zen has), I wouldn't be at all shocked if they were able to script on their own. That, or because presumably this would need a new engine to feel more like a real table, and that it'd be for one manufacturer, maybe Zen writes the game software specifically to use and interact with Stern code flawlessly? FarSight is having to deal with multiple companies, and years of different systems so they HAVE to go the emulation route.

 

[Biff]

Yes, I think we have a different situation here.
Stern never asked Farsight to do old tables. Farsight asked Stern.

Now it seems, that Stern is looking for someone to digitize their current machines to sell more units.

Director of Marketing @ Stern - Jody Dankberg:
"Digital pinball is fantastic for pinball awareness. You will soon see current models featured in digital forms for game consoles and smartphones."
(February 2014 ...)

If Zen gets the job, I think ROM emulation won't be such a big issue.
Stern & Zen would work together to find a solution and Stern would provide everything what Zen needs to get the job done.

(pure speculation)

 

[Locksley]

<snip>
Director of Marketing @ Stern - Jody Dankberg:
"Digital pinball is fantastic for pinball awareness. You will soon see current models featured in digital forms for game consoles and smartphones."
(February 2014 ...)<snip>

All this is good and fine, Zen can do new tables as good as they can get hopefully, but I just a tinsy weensy worried about rights and licenses for Farsight. I want FS continue releasling old tables that are currently under Stern umbrella (Williams, Bally, Sega...), this was one of my concerns.
If it were me there would be no problem, FS does one thing, Zen an other. But in business things turn to **** pretty quickly...

 

[Biff]

All this is good and fine, Zen can do new tables as good as they can get hopefully, but I just a tinsy weensy worried about rights and licenses for Farsight. I want FS continue releasling old tables that are currently under Stern umbrella (Williams, Bally, Sega...), this was one of my concerns.
If it were me there would be no problem, FS does one thing, Zen an other. But in business things turn to **** pretty quickly...

Well the Stern license doesn't have to be exclusive to only one company.
I think Stern covers Sega and Data East. Williams & Bally are seperate licenses.